Scott DeLuzio 00:00:00 Thanks for tuning into the Drive On Podcast, where we’re focused on giving hope and strength to the entire military community. Whether you’re a veteran, active duty, guard, reserve, or family member, this podcast will share inspirational stories and resources that are useful to you. I’m your host, Scott DeLuzio. Now let’s get on with the show. Hey, everyone, welcome back to the Drive On Podcast. Today, my guest is Chris Shaver. Chris is a creator of the Better Way To Relate Program. For 10 years, he has given couples a better way to relate, to navigate the behaviors that can pull a relationship apart. Chris offers raw solid and research-based couples advice that you can use tonight to make your relationships better and stronger. I’m happy to have him on the show today, because I know there’s a lot of military veterans and actively serving military members who are struggling with their relationships. They have problems, and it’s just something I think we need to address. I’m glad to have Chris on. Welcome to the show, Chris.
Chris Shaver 00:01:08 Scott. Hi, it’s my pleasure to be on. Thank you.
Scott DeLuzio 00:01:11 Why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself and your background before we get started here.
Chris Shaver 00:01:17 Thank you, Scott. My name’s Chris Shaver. I call myself a couples whisper. I have a website that’s coupleswhisper com, and for the past 10 years, I’ve been using a professional assessment that pinpoints the 22 pairs of opposite behaviors that trip couples up and pair them apart. These pairs of opposite behaviors express in all kinds of surprising ways, but really, at the end of the day, what we fight about as couples tends to be behavior, behavior, and behavior. Getting a handle on that, especially for folks who get married young and maybe go away and do their service and come back. They’re trying to understand who both of both sides of the relationship have changed into and what behaviors work and don’t work is so critical.
Scott DeLuzio 00:02:09 I think that is critical. When I deployed to Afghanistan, it was just shortly after my first son was born. My wife and I were newly married. We just had a baby and there’s a lot of changes just as parents when you’re raising a child. But then I also deployed, so not only did I come back as a changed person from my deployment, but when I came back my wife was a changed person as well because she was taking care of our child for the better part of a year. It does change not, not saying it’s a bad thing. I’m just saying it there’s changes that take place. , you sort of have to learn how to navigate those changes and work through some of that stuff.
Chris Shaver 00:03:04 Right. How, how old were you when you deployed? How were you when you got married?
Scott DeLuzio 00:03:07 Let’s see we got married and I was 26 years old when we got married. I was 28 during that deployment. It was very shortly after.
Chris Shaver 00:03:22 One of the things that this assessment actually found was that we have very clear needs for certain behaviors, from our spouses, our significant others, our partners, whatever you wanna call it. Those behavioral needs guide our normal personalities, throwing a baby into the mix. Now you’re dealing with a whole different set of needs because as parents, you have to sort of repress your needs, because you gotta make sure that little one is getting up, getting fed, getting enough sleep, and staying healthy. It is this now there’s a whole other personality that’s there. It’s called your personality on child duty. The child is every bit as severe, a taskmaster as a Sergeant could ever possibly be because there’s no option of whether you gotta change them or not.
Chris Shaver 00:04:21 There will be screaming if you don’t change that diaper. There’s a whole and another personality, even if it’s a little unformed, one in the middle of you two the changes that can happen when you go away and come back again and have another child in the middle of it, it just all compounds. I think like one of the things that I’ve typically heard, I had friends outta high school who signed up for the military and went overseas, but they got married right before and they were married around 18 or 19. A couple of the guys I knew. What the research shows is that anybody who’s married, prior to the age of 22, or 21, I think this statistic has a much higher likelihood of a divorce. There’s really a reason for that on a personality basis, which is that our personalities don’t really like calcifying sets and stone really form up hard until around 24. Then from that point on they could be set in stone, but you still really don’t know who you are until life tests you and throws you some curveballs and things like that. The person that you fall in love with can be entirely different than the person you find yourself with. Then just the whole thing of having separate lives and separate experiences added to that. It’s a rough haul for people, folks who serve and go away.
Scott DeLuzio 00:05:47 I kind of think of that phenomenon that you just described, how your personality is still kind of evolving is almost like for the people who get married young, like that, it’s almost like false advertising in a store when you go in and you’re expecting this product to have all these desirable features, these things that you want. Then you get at home, and then you’re disappointed because it doesn’t have all the things that it was advertised to. Because your expectations have sort of changed. I think of it that way.
Chris Shaver 00:06:27 Let me throw one more curve bow in there because we all know what it means to be on our best behavior and dating. Dating behavior is definitely a form of being on your best behavior. As much as you wanna stay on your best behavior, eventually we all sort of resort to who we are. Throw a kid in there, screaming in the middle of the night and you don’t have a choice. The real you was gonna come out. It’s even more complicated than just BA and switching from a 21-year-old self to a 28-year-old self there’s some of that stuff. We’re all trying as best we can to put our best foot forward. Relationships can be very complicated because of all that.
Scott DeLuzio 00:07:16 Honestly, it’s not much of a surprise that veterans tend to experience divorce at a higher rate than their civilian counterparts. I mean, we all know if we’ve served, we’ve either been divorced or we know people who have been divorced. That’s not a shock, I don’t think so. We are all pretty well aware of that. If this happens, what are some of the challenges that are more unique? Maybe I should say to military families, that they face versus their civilian counterparts, that maybe they don’t tend to deal with the same type of challenges.
Chris Shaver 00:07:58 I was thinking about this question and I always talk about the fact that there are three fights in every marriage. Three fights and one of them is just prime to be a bigger problem for military folks. Who’ve gone away and have come back than anybody else. That’s a decision-making fight. If you think about marriage, I always say the definition of marriage is once steering wheels to people.
Chris Shaver 00:08:25 You go your way and you come back and your spouse is running the operation, which means making all the decisions by themselves. A lot of the decision-making conflicts that can happen, it’s either that you’re different or you’re the same. You’ve got these pairs of opposite behaviors. It’s gonna be, we’re different. You’re bossy and I need to be collaborative. That’s one pair of opposites, but it can also be I’m bossy and you’re bossy. I’ve been running this ship now you’re gonna come over and try to take my hands off the steering wheel. I don’t think so. Those are the kinds of fights. I think it’s really hard. I’ve actually had these conversations with a good friend who came back and he said, I don’t really know where I fit.
Chris Shaver 00:09:19 I don’t know where I fit. I know where I wanna fit, but I’ve been gone for so long. I feel like I’m being put into a spot that I don’t belong. The need for having authority in your relationship. A lot of military folks will be that way. A lot of the natural personality really of somebody in the military is they either need to be in charge or they need to know definitely who’s in charge and they need to respect that person who’s in charge. Decision-making all can really revolve around that. It’s like, how do we make decisions? Well, I make ’em from the front if I’m in charge. What I really see is because people aren’t aware that they’re really dealing with these forces, they go about it unconsciously.
Chris Shaver 00:10:07 In other words, you stumble into one situation after another and they keep having the same bad outcomes. Then you start to think the other person’s a jerk. That’s really the fast boat to divorce instead of saying. Instead of just saying, okay, authority needs to be shared one way or the other. Either we need to collaborate or you have your areas. I have my areas, but can we make room for me would be a way to have an adult conversation out of, that’s really key of what I bring us. How do you have conversations about the behavioral needs that are going on?
Scott DeLuzio 00:10:43 One of the things I noticed in my own relationship with my wife is communication, just in general, is probably one of the more important things that you’re gonna have to work on. My wife and I, we talk about just about everything, we cover the mundane routine kind of conversations and things that are going on, what bills are coming up and what we might need to do around the house, and all like that kind of stuff. Even the bigger things like bigger financial planning kind of things. We talk about all of it. I think that helps to keep us on the same page, knowing what the other person’s thinking. We may not always agree with each other, but at least we are, we know what each other is thinking.
Scott DeLuzio 00:11:38 I think helps keep us on the same track. That way we’re not getting upset when someone does something that maybe is going against what my thought of how things should be going is, or gets upset because I do something that she wasn’t thinking would be the right thing. We’ve had the conversation, we know what to expect because we’ve talked about it. In that way, if I know that there’s a big thing that’s gonna be something that she’s not gonna like, well, then I’m not gonna do that. Because I don’t wanna rock the boat with, what’s
Chris Shaver 00:12:15 An example of that. What’s an example then can you gimme one?
Scott DeLuzio 00:12:21 Maybe making certain purchases, frivolous kinds of purchases, right. We usually talk about anything over a certain dollar. We talk about, does this make sense to buy it, whatever. I go to her and say, Hey, I want to go buy this thing, whatever it is. She’s like, well, you could. I’m not really seeing how that makes sense financially and that kind of stuff. I could just hear. You could end it right there and just go and get it. I also know that maybe that’s not gonna be the best thing. Maybe I should think about it. We talk about those things and we try to help each other make the right decisions. That we not getting upset with each other with that kind of
Chris Shaver 00:13:16 Can I unpack that behaviorally?
Chris Shaver 00:13:19 What I heard was, we make decisions collaboratively. You Might say,, I want this. I want a boat.
Chris Shaver 00:13:31 I want a boat. Your wife might say, we need a minivan, but it becomes a conversation. There’s also the next piece to that is you’re talking about communication. In one-to-one communication, there are pairs of opposites. I’m the 0.2 pair of opposite guys. In one-on-one communication, there are people who are very direct and blunt and to the point, and they can need that from their partner. There are people who are much more sensitive, and more tactful, and diplomatic. You’re the way you are framed. It was, my wife said, that you might want that, that sounds like it might be a good idea. That right there, that’s like a very sensitive relationship moment where she says, I respect you. I’m not saying you’re idea’s a bad idea, but can I introduce something else?
Chris Shaver 00:14:28 It’s more, it’s a more sense she could have just said, hell no. That would be very blunt, like, what are you thinking? It would be very blunt. But she came at you in a more sensitive way, which was a presentation of respect to you. I said, there’s three fights in every relationship. Respect is usually the first casualty. It’s usually number one. That ability to phrase that in a way that said, I respect that. It sounds like it might be an interesting idea, but can we talk about it? That’s all behavior, right? If she had said it differently, you would’ve been like, who do you think you are? You can’t talk to me like that. What’s interesting about these pairs of opposites?
Chris Shaver 00:15:13 Scott that is why I do these assessments. I charge not much money online, but I’m working with a client right now who needs very direct communication. If his spouse did that to him, well, that sounds like it might be a good idea. He would feel disrespected. Because what he wants to hear is hell yes or hell no. Let’s just keep moving. His perspective from that point of need is I need you to be open with me. I don’t want you to tip me, just tell me what you’re thinking, but either way, needing direct or needing more sensitivity and tact, then, if you don’t get that need met, you feel disrespected. Once you get a disrespectful fight going on it, emotions arise and they’re not usually good ones.
Scott DeLuzio 00:16:14 That’s a good point that you bring up too is because everyone’s gonna have slightly different expectations in terms of that, that communication style, where some people need that direct, some people need the more collaborative approach. Some people just need different approaches to really accomplish the same thing. But just based on an individual’s personality, you need to have a different way of approaching certain circumstances. I think that’s important to recognize not just in marriages and that type of relationship, but with other people that you work with or the people that you interact with there’s different needs and expectations, right.
Chris Shaver 00:16:58 It’s all day long. I think what’s really a challenge from a military gone away is to come home. Point of view is again, people are evolving or people are thrown right into the midst of a family in progress. It is one thing even in an ideal situation, you married the person, she or he is, who they are. They didn’t change. They are who they are, but now you’re now you’re in the midst of life, not dating life. Really seeing that under pressure, and as behavior changes under pressure. I mean, if nobody on earth knows that, probably better than military people, behavior change is under pressure. The pressure of everyday life will force things out of you and them being able to do that on the fly, with somebody that you’re still trying to get used to. You might have just even if you married them, and went away, you’re still like trying to figure out who they are and what your relationship and where you stand.
Chris Shaver 00:17:58 That’s. I think it’s really the hardest part for me and why.I am a fan of assessment because this stuff is, there are 22 of opposite behaviors. You do the math on the potential differences between us, it runs to billions. So it’s just zeros and one zeros and ones and how they all interact. To me, it’s just like, tell me what the rules are and what I deliver and why I do what I do is I wanna tell you what the rules I figure at that point, you have a fighting chance if your spouse needs direct, you’ll know it. If your spouse needs you to be more sensitive and then you can go ahead and define what those issues of sensitivity are. Like my first wife, she would say, you can say that to me when my mother’s around you, can’t say that to me, with my mother and my middle sisters around if my mother and my youngest sister around, you can say that to me.
Chris Shaver 00:18:55 There was sensitivity, but it was situational traditional logic, which was fine. Once I understood it, it was like, keep your big mouth show when the middle sister’s round. That was just the logic. It was like, okay, got it. But it was the recognition that I needed to be more sensitive, more tactful. Couldn’t just blurt things out, or in certain situations and conditions. But once I saw that these were the results of my assessment, You gotta be kidding me, because it’s all there in black and white. I don’t have to guess at any of it.
Scott DeLuzio 00:19:31 I think that the nice thing is that it is black and white. It’s almost like an owner’s manual for an appliance or, or for something where, where there’s something that’s making a noise that shouldn’t be making, okay, let’s go to the manual and try to figure out what’s going on with that. Right. That,
Chris Shaver 00:19:48 That is exactly what I called it. I said, I just printed out. This is the owner’s manual. Me, let’s have a conversation. Because every fight we’ve ever had, I can explain to you what I was thinking. If you take that assessment, I’ll know exactly what you’re thinking. Now we’re having adult conversations. I think this thing with our needs, actually we, as kids, were trained to keep our mouths shut. our parents were doing their best. They could get us from zero to adulthood without getting hit by a car in the middle of the road or something. Most of the time we were just told, to keep our mouths shut and do what we’re told, but the net effect of that behavior of reinforcement over time is we don’t know how to talk about our needs.
Chris Shaver 00:20:34 That whole thing of saying, do you need collaboration, or do you need to be leading on this issue? It’s never a conversation. We were never taught how to have it. Another reason why I like seeing it in black and white because we all have these needs, their research-validated. When I saw it, it was just like it’s who we really were. It was trained right out of us. We were taught how to behave, to meet the needs of our parents, our teachers, our sports team leaders, all of that. But we were never taught to clearly express our own needs and just have a real conversation about it.
Scott DeLuzio 00:21:13 That’s a hard thing to do, especially if you’ve never been shown how to do that. If you’ve come from a household where your parents didn’t experience that behavior and didn’t practice that themselves, just coming up with that on your own, it might not be the easiest thing to do.
Chris Shaver 00:21:33 I said, I feel like this is the day that language was born for me, because it gave me a whole set of language and a shared language where I could now have a conversation and point to something on paper point, here’s how this is language. Here’s the difference because of what actually happens. It’s very confusing. You can get people who use the same exact word to mean exact opposite things, which is like, that’s tower B stuff. That’s like nobody understands anything anymore. That gonna happen in a relationship when you get into a, into a, an argument, people will often be saying same things and meaning the opposite and wondering why they’re not communicating, they’re trying, but the words aren’t sinking through on either side, because the meanings are different,
Chris Shaver 00:22:25 It’s a new relational language that this assessment brings.
Scott DeLuzio 00:22:30 I think it’s important to understand your spouse’s language that they’re using. If they use words like, oh, it’s fine. Or something like that. You might have to read between the lines and understand that maybe it’s not really fine. Maybe it’s just a passive kind of thing that they’re doing. Maybe you might wanna reconsider whatever it is that they’re talking about.
Chris Shaver 00:22:59 Well, that’s the underlying sensitivity. That thankfulness part of that, I think of being able to even if you’re direct like I’m a very direct human being able to recognize that my significant other has very high needs for respect, which means that sometimes it’s not even just saying, oh, that’s fine in a kind of strange tone of voice. It might just be a little bit of a sideways look. I’m not in trouble. Something landed hard over there and I don’t need to figure out what the, if I can do it myself. I’ll say, oh, I didn’t realize you would take it that way. I can’t figure it out, it’s like, can we just stop and have a conversation? Because I see that I said, or did something that landed hard for you.
Chris Shaver 00:23:50 I didn’t mean it, I’m an idiot. Let’s just talk about it, right? Because I don’t have her sense. I don’t have the range of sensitivity. I really do prefer more direct, but she just has, it’s different. I’ll just say, it’s just simply that. What the research actually has found is that couple, too succeed have the ability to have a meta-conversation, to stop the conversation about the content, step out and talk about the relationship. By saying, can we just step back for a second, because I know what I said, landed hard, just step back and have a conversation about it. So I can understand your point of view and that I can tell you gets you worlds farther than just saying like, oh crap. what could I possibly have said now, like just blaming, blaming your partner in your mind, because don’t be so sensitive for God’s sake, whatever, that’s the kind of thing that happens if it’s over-time. But to me, that’s who you are as a human being. I’m just gonna stop and ask you what it was, take a time out. It’s a huge thing. If people took nothing else away, it would just be like, take a time out and say, that landed hard. Can you tell me what it was that I did that made you feel that way? It’s a great big deal in a relationship.
Scott DeLuzio 00:25:14 Let’s talk about the program that you have and how that works with couples as they are kind of navigating through their relationship. It’s called the better way to relate programs. Tell us more about that and how that works. What couples can expect when they get in touch with you?
Chris Shaver 00:25:36 At this point, what I have is a variety of reports. People would come to coupleswhisper.com. At the moment you have to email me, I’m setting the whole thing up so that it flows. But right now I’m still at the point where I’m working one on one with couples, but they would email me. I’d set them up. They could take an assessment. I have a variety of reports that I would run. A popular one would be the biggest mistake that your spouse could make with you. Just like those big hurdles. The big flashing red lights don’t go there. That would be one report. I actually have over 20 reports. I can do a report on relational disruptors. It’s kind of like the biggest mistakes, but it’s a longer list.
Chris Shaver 00:26:25 It shows you your behaviors, what you need from your spouse, and actually what, what your behavior will look like when your needs aren’t met. What happens when our needs aren’t met is very reliable. We get into our stressed-out versions of ourselves. It’s kind of how to avoid that, but I have plenty of different reports. I’m in the midst of having spelled out on my website, the couplewhisper. If you’re having an issue, just maybe shoot me an email. My email address is on-site and we can have a conversation. I recommend a report for you. They’re all about out. Around 79 bucks. Some of them are a little more, a little less, but what I’m trying to do is create a platform where people can get advice right now when they need it right now. They don’t have to go to a marriage counselor. Most people wait six years. By the time they hit that marriage counselor, they hate each other and they are fixed. I’m trying to meet people where they are at the point of need, right where they need it. They can take an assessment, get rock-solid advice on what they both need and what they should, and shouldn’t be doing with each other.
Scott DeLuzio 00:27:36 It’s pretty affordable considering if you wait much longer and you end up going to a marriage account. That’s probably gonna cost a lot more. At that point, your relationship is already sort of in trouble at that point. It’s already fairly compromised, right? For getting these reports like we were saying before, it spells things out just like an owner’s manual, where, where it says, this is what you did wrong. This is what you need to do for troubleshooting steps and figure out what the problem is. I think that is an incredibly valuable thing for people to have, in their toolkit in their relationships so that they can navigate through and better understand the needs and the wants and the desires of their spouse. That way, they’re not just trying to stab in the dark and guess what they’re, they did, right. What they did wrong, what why that, that fight happened or whatever
Chris Shaver 00:28:49 If you think about a military life, you’re adopting, you’re stepping into a world that’s highly structured. Structure is one of the behaviors. Usually, it expresses that you have a high need for structure. You’re gonna know what to do. You’re gonna know who’s gonna tell you what to, and you’re gonna do it. I think that’s the beauty of this program. I don’t know about the military, but I know that right now that they’re teaching the military, the objective you go in, and then you gotta think your way through how to meet that objective. These assessment results are a lot like that. This is the objective. I’ll give you the videos that I’m starting to create for this, I’ll give you how to meet those objectives under fire which is what happens when you’re with your spouse. The kids start, the diapers leaking and the dog’s barking, and somebody’s knocking at the door. How to live through that engagement is really what I’m gonna try and show you, but give you the plan.
Scott DeLuzio 00:30:03 Then it’s just a matter of executing the plan and going through and putting the work in to accomplish the mission.
Chris Shaver 00:30:13 Doing it together as a team because the whole thing is you might be one of the most competitive people on earth, but at the end of a day, you need to be competing for your relationship and the relationship. The bigger objective is to keep the relationship alive.
Scott DeLuzio 00:30:30 You’re on the same team with that, right? That a relationship like a marriage is a team sport. You need to work together to accomplish your goals. Even the best baseball player in the world. If you put ’em on a team with all crappy players, they’re not gonna be able to carry the whole team. They can do their best, but they’re not gonna be able to carry the whole team if everyone’s not working together.
Chris Shaver 00:30:58 It’s funny because everything that you say represents behavior. Actually another pair of opposites is people who have that team focus. It is just enunciated beautifully, but there are people who are very competitive and they see the world through the lens of individual achievement. People who see the world through the lens of a team will naturally say, our relationship is the team. That’s the bigger value, but people who are individual achievers, they can compete, but they just have to realize there are boundaries to competition. A lot of what happens when couples have the classic screaming fights, that’s called competition with winning you’re screaming is I will defeat you. I will dominate you. What you have to say is that’s not gonna serve our relationship. The objective is preserving our relationship. How can we back down off of that? That nasty peak. It’s really again, almost everything that comes out of our mouths relates to our behavioral framework, what we need from each other. I can hear you and your wife see through the lens of the team and that’s your work. Other people are different, and the challenges come with both sides. I could talk a long time about all of it. We all have challenges wherever we find ourselves kind of in that behavioral spectrum.
Scott DeLuzio 00:32:19 There are challenges. I mean, you’re never gonna find two people that are a hundred percent on the same page of every single thing. It just doesn’t happen. and, but if you can find two people who are willing to work together to achieve that common goal, right. and it could be working individually like you were saying, it could be two individual, achiever type people. But really they’re working towards that same goal of, of having that happy, successful marriage. If you can, if you can do that, you can find the people who work well together, then, then you’ll be able to succeed.
Chris Shaver 00:33:05 I think that’s it really it’s because everybody’s relationship is different. People like people who are more competitive. They are very realistic. It’s like, what’s in it for me. It’s not what’s in it for the team it’s what’s and for me, and so the way they negotiate looks like a lot more hardball negotiation. But if they’re both speaking that same language. They come to the end of negotiation. They can say, okay, I didn’t get over you. You didn’t get over on me. We have a deal. We can work that deal. We can be accountable to that deal. But it’s just that’s the way that couple would work. if you had a team, a team-focused person with an individual achiever who was wanting to win, you’d have to say to that individual achiever, you, you better make sure your spouse wins some of the time because otherwise you and my friend are gonna lose.
Chris Shaver 00:33:55 It’s a bigger picture. Everywhere you meet there’s the same and you have to figure out how that worked for you as a couple, but again, having it in black and white and seeing like, oh, I’m gonna, I’m an individual achiever competitively. My wife or spouse keeps losing, and I see that look in that face and I might feel great that I won, but it might not be this year brother. It might not be next year, but that day will come where your spouse will say what, I’ve spent 20 years losing every argument to you. I just can’t do it anymore. A lot of people get that letter in the mail from the attorney saying, your wife has filed for divorce because there’s long-term effects for this stuff. A lot of people see live kind of moment to moment with that stuff. But half the relationships dissolve within the first seven years. The other half, there’s kind of like these moments around the 20-year mark. There’s another moment. There’s another big moment. In between, there’s a filter, but some of it just can’t figure out each other at all. Some of it’s just getting worn down over time, I think.
Scott DeLuzio 00:35:09 We don’t want that happening. We want people to be able to work together and thrive in their marriage and in their relationships. Chris, it’s been a pleasure as you’re speaking with you today and talking about these different personalities and different ways that people work together and more importantly, how they can repair and mend their marriage and work to have that good relationship with their spouse. Where can people go? I know you mentioned the website earlier. I want to give you a chance to mention it again. And anywhere else that people can go to get in touch with you and find out more about your program.
Chris Shaver 00:35:55 I think it’s just simple. If you go to coupleswhisper.com, I actually have created a, just a free report on the 22 pairs of opposite behaviors. Because I know that’s kind of a whole new big thought to most people. If you don’t want to take an assessment and see how that goes, I just sign up for the free report of having to give it to you. It’s coupleswhisper.com. My email address will be on there. If you’d like to take the assessment, just email me and I’ll set you up. Maybe we could have a conversation. I’ll recommend which report would be best for you, something like that. I’d be happy to help anybody.
Scott DeLuzio 00:36:34 I’ll have a link to that in the notes. So anyone who is interested in checking that out go ahead, check out the show notes, click through, and you’ll be able to, to get in touch with Chris and, get the right reports that will help guide you towards that happy, healthy relationship that you’ve been seeking, right?
Chris Shaver 00:36:59 That’s great. Actually, my email address is [email protected] whisper.com. If you don’t have a website. I’m happy to help anybody.
Scott DeLuzio 00:37:11 Perfect. Thanks again for coming on and sharing what you do and how you’ve helped out other couples. Thanks again. And, I really do appreciate it.
Chris Shaver 00:37:23 Thank you, Scott. It’s been a pleasure.
Scott DeLuzio 00:37:26 Thanks for listening to the Drive On Podcast. If you want to check out more episodes or learn more about the show, you can visit our website DriveOnPodcast.com. We’re also on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, and YouTube at Drive On Podcast.