Episode 405 Dr. Sarah Michaud Codependency Solutions and Recovery Tips Transcript

This transcript is from episode 405 with guest Dr. Sarah Michaud.

Scott DeLuzio: [00:00:00] Thanks for tuning in to the Drive On Podcast where we are focused on giving hope and strength to the entire military community. Whether you’re a veteran, active duty, guard, reserve, or a family member, this podcast will share inspirational stories and resources that are useful to you. I’m your host, Scott DeLuzio, and now let’s get on with the show.

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Drive On. I’m your host, Scott DeLuzio. And today, my guest is Dr. Sarah Michaud. Dr. Michaud is a seasoned psychologist with over 30 years of experience and a deep understanding of some of the issues that veterans face, such as addiction and codependency. And today we’ll discuss how those issues impact veterans and their families and what steps can be taken to develop healthier relationships and coping mechanisms with regards to these types of issues.

So before we do that, uh, Sarah, I’m [00:01:00] really glad to have you here. Uh, welcome to the show.

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Thanks so much. I’m really glad to be here, Scott. I thank you for inviting me. I have a special place in my heart for veterans. My dad was in World War II and I just, I don’t know, I just hope I can be helpful.

Scott DeLuzio: Well, I, I think so. You know, based on, uh, you know, some of the stuff I’ve, uh, you know, kind of looked up and, you know, kind of conversations that we’ve had, uh, kind of offline before we started recording here. Um, I, I think this is going to be a great conversation. I think it’s going to be especially helpful for those folks who might be struggling with addiction, codependency issues, that type of thing.

So, um, but I guess before we get into it, I think a lot of people are probably familiar with, uh, Addiction and like what that is. Like they kind of can conceptualize it. Codependency is, is one of those terms that I think maybe is, uh, maybe not as commonly used and, and as familiar to folks. Can you start with explaining what codependency is and how it manifests in folks?

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Absolutely. [00:02:00] I would be happy to. And the problem with codependency these days is it’s kind of become part of the lexicon. I mean, everybody’s throwing the term around. So, um, it’s kind of lost its meaning. I mean, it originally was developed really by Bill Wilson, who started Alcoholics Anonymous, his wife was kind of the first person who started talking about it.

Meaning, what is the personality of the traits of the person that’s the partner of someone with a substance abuse problem? That’s where it began. And then in the kind of 60s, 70s, and 80s, these books were written about codependency and it was initially A partner of a substance abuser. So basically the person was focused more on their partners, thoughts, feelings, and behaviors rather than their own.

And that caused a lot of problems, which we can discuss, because the problem with that paradigm is it doesn’t work. So these, you know, the classic kind [00:03:00] of housewife would spend all their time worrying and trying to fix their husband and get them sober. And meanwhile, the husband would just get resentful and the wife would go down the tube.

So it never really worked out. And then as the, as time has evolved, codependency has been more kind of brought into the general arena of relationships because. You know, people, first of all, it’s not only women, and secondly, it’s really where anyone can kind of focus way too much on someone else and trying to fix them or save them or change them.

So that’s what it’s really about. It’s where my life’s focus is way more now on my partner and thinking they need to change rather than focusing on myself. So that’s really the definition now. And in the process, the person loses who they are. We really lose, uh, our [00:04:00] connection to ourself. Meanwhile, our connection to others and everybody else.

So it’s really the lack of ability to be who you really want to be. Okay, I’m getting, I’m getting complex now, but yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: no, that was a good explanation. I think, uh, you know, because when, when you’re talking about these concepts, I want, I want to make sure that people understand kind of what it is. And, and, and before we, we started just diving into it and talking about solutions or things like that, we’re going to have to identify the problem first.

Right. And I think, like I said, addiction, I think is, is fairly, uh, commonly understood codependency, maybe perhaps not. As much, maybe, maybe the concept is, but maybe the label, uh, might not be

Dr. Sarah Michaud: The word. Yes.

Scott DeLuzio: So, so this sounds like, like the way you described it, it’s not necessarily just, uh, dealing with, uh, you know, a spouse or, uh, you know, a close relative or, [00:05:00] or some loved one with addiction.

It could be any issue that they’re going through that you’re now, I need to figure out what to do. How to fix this. And, and I, the reason why I wanted you to kind of go into that, I kind of, this was kind of a loaded question. I kind of knew the answer when I asked you to describe what codependency is. But, um, I did that because I know that there’s some listeners out there who have a loved one who is struggling with something.

Maybe it’s PTSD, maybe it’s addiction, maybe it’s, who knows, you name it, they’re dealing with something and that person either doesn’t want to go and find the help or they don’t know where to go. And this other person, this loved one is like, I need to help them. I need to do something to help them, you know?

And, and so. I want to identify this as potentially a problem, uh, that, that might affect them. And I’m not saying it’s a problem that you want to help somebody. Like that’s obviously, it’s a good [00:06:00] thing. Um, but where does it become a problem? And, and let’s, we’ll, I’m sure we’ll get into that at some point, uh, you know, here, but that’s, that’s kind of why I wanted to bring this up and, and kind of get the ball rolling on this conversation.

So,

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Yes. Yes. Go ahead. I was going to say, you know, and I said this to you before we came on, my best friend was married to a Vietnam vet for 30 years. And she actually, I spoke with her last week and she was in a group at a veteran center for, um, wives of, uh, Disabled veterans. And she said basically the whole group was discussing codependency.

So even though it may not be labeled a codependent group as a support to veterans, a lot of the issues are going to be around codependency because, and I think I was thinking about this, thinking about being on your podcast. That it’s almost like [00:07:00] codependency and addiction magnified. That’s what it’s like being in the veteran world because you’re not only dealing with addiction, you’re dealing with depression, you’re dealing with PTSD, you’re dealing with chronic pain, you’re dealing with pain meds, you’re dealing with TBI, you’re dealing with grief, rage, uh, loss of identity.

I mean, I could go on and on about all the challenges that are physical problems, you know, physical disabilities. Um, you know, so there are so many issues that one can be codependent with a partner around. And, you know, plus let alone kind of, I was going to say violence and some other possibilities. So it’s kind of like everything magnified.

That’s how I see like the veteran work around codependency and addiction because it’s complex.

Scott DeLuzio: It is complex. And oftentimes there’s, there’s more than one issue at play here. You know, like you talked about physical issues where you might have, you know, chronic pain, um, [00:08:00] and so that’s an issue that you’re dealing with, but then you’re. Prescribe medications. And then if you’re overusing those or getting addicted to those medications, that becomes another issue.

And now, now you have that. And then how are those medications affecting you? Are you becoming, you know, irritable and violent and you know, you know, you name it all these different issues. Now we’ve got a third issue now, and you could see how the snowballs down, down, down the hill. Right. So, um, so Let’s talk about the addiction side of things and maybe the over medication, uh, the way things are.

A lot of times veterans are prescribed. Numerous medications, uh, by either the VA or, you know, other doctors. Um, and sometimes it’s unnecessary what they get prescribed. Um, how, how does this contribute to some of these issues that we’re

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Yeah. I mean, it’s so tricky because, um, you really can’t look at, at least this is my opinion and you’re going to get many opinions, but, and it’s also tricky specifically of veterans [00:09:00] too. But I always say it’s very hard to deal with the other issues, the depression, the PTSD, the rage, all those other things.

If you’re continuing to participate in an addiction. So if you can’t put the addiction down first, and I was looking at statistics, Scott, with the veterans, I mean, my gosh, you probably already know this. You probably had people on your show. I mean, like substance is over 50 percent suicidality. I mean, it’s just insane.

Like the high, high level of PTSD, what one in three or over 75 percent or something. So there are a lot of other issues. And the trouble with PTSD and addiction very often is. If you put down a substance, say alcohol, and you may know this, you may know other people have done this, sometimes the PTSD then gets worse.

Because now, I don’t have anything to medicate all of my symptoms. So, it’s kind of [00:10:00] like this really tough bind, right? Well, Sarah, you’re telling me to put down my alcohol, but now I’m going to start having nightmares. Okay, so what do we do first? So, it’s a real delicate dance in the veteran community, to me, to figure out how to get support around putting the substances down and the addictions.

And then concomitantly, we’re going to try to manage and stabilize symptoms so someone can really work on their recovery and sobriety. So it’s tricky. You’re talking about pain meds also, and I actually was married to a guy who was a Navy vet. And he got all kinds of pain meds from the VA and he was someone in recovery.

And it was a very tricky situation. I haven’t sent you my book yet, but he relapsed. And when I met him, he had 15 years of recovery. And a lot of that was around pain and pain meds and the [00:11:00] abuse of pain meds. And especially now, well, you know, all those issues now we’re having. So it can be very tricky. And without getting into the VA and you know, all that stuff, I just think the solution they believe is add another med.

And I’ve seen people for years that come in and they’re on five different meds and it’s like, but what are we really looking at here? And it’s, you need to get to those, what I call the underlying causes and conditions.

Scott DeLuzio: Exactly. And I, I hate hearing this when I see someone who goes to the doctor, they have condition a, whatever it is, right. And they get prescribed something for that condition and that condition might improve a little bit. But then. That medication has a side effect of something, you know, whatever it is that causes condition B, and then they get prescribed another medication to solve condition B, which has another side effect.

And we, you can see, we keep going down and down. And then, and, and that’s how you [00:12:00] get someone who’s on five or six different medications for one thing. When, you know, Really the root cause of something like maybe, maybe some chronic pain, maybe they’re having back issues or something right back or neck or, or, or hips or whatever.

Like a lot of times those are the issues that, that folks are dealing with. Um, when maybe they, what they really need is a surgery to, you know, fix whatever’s happening in their back. And then, yeah, maybe they might need some pain medications temporarily to deal with the surgery type thing. But. They may not need anything long term, um, and, and definitely not five or six medications.

You know, it’s just, just something for that, that short, you know, a couple of weeks after the surgery to keep, keep them, uh, you know, comfortable. But, um, but it, but it kills me when I see that when, when people are getting so many different medications and they’re like, well, I need it. Well, do you really?

You know, if you go back to that root cause of whatever the problem is and, and really address that [00:13:00] instead of just masking the symptoms, then, then maybe you don’t really need any of those medications.

Dr. Sarah Michaud: so, I mean, I’m so with you. And there’s a couple of issues here, really, which is sometimes. And addicts can be tricky. And just for your audience to know, I’m someone who’s in recovery. I was a coke addict and an alcoholic. I have 40, I just celebrated 40 years of recovery. So I’ve been sober a really long time, but I also know what it’s like to be an addict.

And, um, we are tricky beings. And the problem is, you know, someone will come in. And they’ll maybe have quit their substance, but sometimes their belief is, I want a pill. I want a pill to solve my problem. It’s easier to get on a certain antidepressant, not that people don’t need them because definitely they do.

But then they’ll start having feelings or they’ll start having fights with their spouse and then they think, well, I’m getting depressed so I need another antidepressant. [00:14:00] No, you need to deal with your marriage. So it’s like sometimes people want a pill to be the solution because they think it’s easier than dealing with the underlying stuff, but it’s not. Trust me.

Scott DeLuzio: Well, and, and, you know, we live in a Amazon society where everything’s like instant right now, instant gratification, Netflix, you want to watch a show, boom, turn it on. You don’t have to wait until Thursday at eight to watch that show. You know, you, you, you. You can watch it, uh, you know, right on demand. And, and I feel like a lot of times people get impatient with their, their physical and their mental health and it’s okay.

Well, this pill worked last time. This is what I’m just going to do. I’m going to take this and I’ll feel better for now, but it’s not addressing the root cause and it’s not going to make the problem necessarily go away. It’s just going to kind of mask the symptoms for now. Right. And that’s not the healthiest way to deal with it because [00:15:00] those problems are still there and they’re not going anywhere.

Um, and so, so you kind of have to deal with it, right?

Dr. Sarah Michaud: You said it. I mean, the thing is, too, is that, and I always say this, like If you just mask something or it’s just going to be this kind of, it’s going to not end, it’s going to keep going on and on and on, right? And then you’ll get another matter, another this. If you confront your pain or your underlying feelings or the underlying issues, there is a beginning, a middle and an end, and you can get through it.

You know, and I’m sure you’ve heard of Gabor Mate, the trauma guy. He’s written this big book on trauma. And he really says addiction is a response to trauma. So if you look at all the veterans who have trauma, you know, it’s almost like a normal response, let alone, and this would complicate the thing, who they were before they even went into the service.

So you’ve got that, Then you’ve got the service, then you’ve got the [00:16:00] post, you know, I’m coping, you know, I’m trying to ameliorate, calm my feelings down to this addiction. It’s the only thing I know that works, but in the end it doesn’t work. It just makes it worse. So

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, it does. And, and, um, yeah, it’s, it’s just not, not the right way to go, you know, and it, it’s hard, but, but you, you brought up something earlier to, uh, the kind of the emotional issues that people have, you know, anger, rage, frustration. Um, a lot of times we, we get that just from, uh, just, you know, Going to the doctors and not being heard, like they’re like, you’re, you’re saying, Hey, this is the problem.

And they’re like, okay, no, it’s something else. And they, they give you, I had a, personally, I had an experience when I had an issue where I felt like I couldn’t get a full breath of air. I was taken and it felt like there’s an elephant on my chest. I couldn’t breathe. I couldn’t get a full breath. And I was kind of nervous.

I’m like, obviously you’ve got to breathe, breathe. Right. So I went to the [00:17:00] emergency room at, uh, there’s a VA, uh, near here. And we went, went to the emergency room. I told them what was going on. They did all the, the, the tests and they said, you know, your blood oxygen is normal. It’s, you know, 99 percent or whatever it was, it was high.

It was up there. It was, I was doing okay. And, um, they said, it must just be anxiety. And I’m like, I wasn’t, I wasn’t anxious about anything other than the fact that I couldn’t breathe like that. That was causing anxiety. But, um, so I did some research on my own when I got home after they discharged me with anxiety medication.

Um, and all my life I, I had suffered with, uh, heartburn and like kind of acid reflux related issues. And I never had experienced the symptoms where, where it gives you shortness of breath, but I looked it up and. That is one of the symptoms of, of having that. I needed, you know, Tums or an antacid or something and not anxiety medication.

So

Dr. Sarah Michaud: pain too.

Scott DeLuzio: yeah, exactly. And so, so I was having, [00:18:00] I was having a lot of issues. I, I took the, you know, uh, antacids and I did some research and I started looking into, you know, gut health and all this stuff, trying to figure out like what was the issue. Um, And I eventually figured it out on my own and nobody took the time to ask the questions, uh, you know, diagnosis symptoms, it was just a knee jerk, you must have anxiety, because yes, I did have symptoms of anxiety, having a panic attack or whatever, but like, That’s not what it was at that point.

And so I could see people being really frustrated with this and then, and just trying to solve things on their own. Luckily I solved it in a way that didn’t require medications for me, but, you know, other people I could see, well, Hey, that medication worked. Let

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Yes.

Scott DeLuzio: some more of that. Right.

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Yes. Yes. And oh my gosh, you’ve said so much. I mean, there’s so many points you just made. [00:19:00] I mean, let alone an anxiety medication. I mean, believe me, there are different anxiety medications, but benzodiazepines, which are like the Valiums, the Xanax, the Klonopin. I mean, those are highly, highly, highly addictive.

And Some people can take them for a short term to help with certain things, but that’s such a dangerous diagnosis for someone to impulsively make and give a med. Okay. So that’s my rant. But, um, and you just happen to be someone who’s super smart, inquisitive, curious, caring about yourself enough to do that.

So thank God you did do that, but you’re right. Most people are fearful and they’re suffering and they go to a doctor and they’re looking for support and help. And I’ve heard this over and over and over again. And I don’t know whose fault it is or where the blame is really. I’m sure it’s multi, you know, I’m sure there’s many arenas, but it’s like, um, [00:20:00] Um, this idea of not being validated and not being heard.

I mean, I think you can still, as a physician, validate someone’s experience without dismissing them. You can, you know, the problem with a lot of physicians are, they don’t want to say when they don’t know. That’s it. And so instead of kind of acknowledging, wow, this is tricky, I really want to help you, I don’t know.

They won’t admit that. And I don’t know if it’s a legal thing. I But everybody wants to be, like, this is the human condition. Everybody wants to be heard, seen, validated, understood, loved, all of it. Right? And especially when you’re suffering. So that’s a really great point. And if we’re gonna expand this to how that connects to addiction and codependency, this is what I will say.

And you mentioned in some of your questions, the anger and rage. And I have a whole chapter in my book [00:21:00] on rage because it’s so important and it’s so connected, you know, even more to veterans for a variety of reasons. But, um, Some theories about addiction are that the number one cause is resentment and anger.

So, and I’m just going to give you my own personal experience quickly. So I’m someone that really saw myself as a very nice, caring, you know, aware human being. And I wasn’t someone that impulsively got angry. If anything, I would shut down. If I was upset, I’d more shut down. People typically do one or two things.

They’re either going to go in one extreme and be external, or they’re going to be internal and your audience can relate to this, or they’re going to repress and shut down and then there’s everything in between. But when I did some work on my own anger, when I first was getting sober, There was this exercise I did about resentments [00:22:00] and I said, well, I don’t have any resentments.

And then this person said, well, they gave me this kind of Um, recipe on how to kind of figure that out. And I had 486 resentments.

Scott DeLuzio: That’s, that’s a huge difference from, Oh, I have none. You’re right. And I’m making this point because there might be someone out there who’s like, yeah, I don’t resent, I have no resentments, but you didn’t either. And now

Dr. Sarah Michaud: that’s right.

Scott DeLuzio: said 486 and like, That’s a huge difference, right?

Dr. Sarah Michaud: that’s a huge. All right.

Scott DeLuzio: did you figure those out?

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Well, see, this is the thing, is that having someone, I mean, whatever support group, I mean, some people go to AAs, there’s so many online supports, there are veteran supports, but finding someone who really knows about how to process anger, and, you know, I’m going to send you a bunch of copies of my book to give out to some audience members, because I have a bunch of exercises in the book on how to process these [00:23:00] resentments, and it’s really helpful, and Because, again, underneath, um, addiction is, to me, is anger, fear, pain, shame.

At the bottom is really, I think, powerlessness, but, um, and fear. Fear’s a biggie. And if you look at codependency, which we’ll talk more about those symptoms

underneath codependency are all the same things. Our anger, shame, resentment, the need for control. So, Literally, underneath addiction and the symptoms of codependency are the same kind of unresolved emotional worlds. So how to deal with your anger, and the tricky thing about anger is this, is Anger, I have a saying, and I was thinking about this, does this relate to veterans?

And I, God, we’ll have to do a group or something for, for a group of people, [00:24:00] because I, there’s just so much to talk about. But I have this saying that 95 percent of the time you get angry, it’s not about the present moment. So. And you asked in one of your questions, so what typically happens, and let’s just put trauma and PTSD aside for a second, what typically happens is, Someone will say something to me, I’ll use you as an example, because you gave that example with feeling dismissed.

So say you’re out in the world and you’re talking to someone at a store and they do the same thing to you, meaning you’re asking for a certain car part or something and they dismiss you and say, we don’t have, and you have this intense anger reaction. So, the question would be, geez, why am I having an intense reaction to this store clerk right now?

And that’s how anger works, right? What [00:25:00] happens is, they’re triggering a memory in you, a bodily sensation of another time you’ve been dismissed or not been heard. And it could have been 30 times in your life. And all those hurts are in your system. So what happens is this store clerk says something and presses that button of I’m not being seen, right?

And it could happen when you were five years old with your mom or your dad. I mean, not that they meant to, but hurts happen and those accumulate and then someone presses that button and you get activated. So the question I say to people when you have what I call an activation of anger is you say to yourself What is this reminding me of when have I felt this way before and what is the underlying fear?

So, [00:26:00] usually what happens is it activates a fear, a fear of not being seen, a fear of not being good enough, fear of not getting my needs met, fear of not getting what I want. There’s all kinds of possibilities. So anger and fear are highly connected, very correlated, and you can put that now in a veterans camp and think about.

Oh my gosh, anger and fear are gonna be, when I read your book, that, these are the things I was thinking about because anger and fear are magnified all over the place and yet you’re supposed to contain it. So, you’re out in your, your world as a soldier and you’re trying to contain all these feelings, but eventually they’re going to still be there.

The consequences in your system, they’re going to be there. You come home and they’re going to get activated, right? I’m saying a lot, but you tell me what you think about all this.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. I, I, I get that what you’re talking about, because you, you do have [00:27:00] these things that need to be, I call it compartmentalized. Uh, you know, when you’re out on a mission and you’re, you’re, you know, going through some personal stuff, maybe, you know, someone’s having a, you know, fight with their wife or something like that, or they’re getting a divorce or they’re, um, you know, some, something’s going on back home, there’s some personal issues going on.

You got to put that stuff aside and you got to have a clear head and be focused and pay attention to what’s going on around you. Otherwise that’s, that’s how people get hurt or killed. And that’s, nobody wants that. Right. But that’s how it happens. And so when we. When we can’t figure out how to, uh, compartmentalize it, then, then those bad things happen.

However, when they are compartmentalized, we need to figure out how to go back and like open up that box and take that stuff back out and deal with it. At some point, we can’t just, Oh, [00:28:00] you know what? I feel good right now because I stuffed that down and it’s, it’s in it’s, you know, quote unquote box and it’s put away.

I don’t have to think about it anymore. You know, it’s not like. You know, old gym shoes that you’ve put in a box in the, in, in storage or anything, it’s, it’s something that you need to take out and you need to deal with and, uh, you know, fine to compartmentalize in that moment when you

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Appropriate, yes.

Scott DeLuzio: completely appropriate, I think.

Um, And I wrote about that in my book of, you know, how I was dealing with the grief of losing my brother, but then we were in a firefight and it’s like, well, I can’t be sitting here sobbing and crying as people are shooting at us. Like I, I have work to do. I have to go do my job as a soldier. And so. Yeah.

Then now, now people stop shooting. Now, what do I do now? I have to go figure out that grief side of things and take that back out of its box and figure out how to deal with that, um, instead of just keeping it [00:29:00] shoved down and, you know, and, and, and dealing it with it. In that way, that, that doesn’t really help anything.

So, um, so yeah, that’s, that’s kind of where I see, uh, kind of what you were just talking about there is, is that, you know, yeah, there is a time and a place to compartmentalize these things, but you need to figure out how to deal with them too, and that, that goes, I think, back to the root cause issue. Like we were talking about with the medications earlier, where if you’re not dealing with that root cause and you’re, you’re just doing something temporarily to mask the symptoms, then.

You know, you’re, you’re not actually dealing with it,

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Yes.

Scott DeLuzio: the way that it should be, right?

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Right. I mean, we can just generalize it, Scott, and say emotional pain, right? So, addiction is numbing emotional pain, regardless of the origin. Whether it’s a trauma from service, whether it’s a childhood wound, whether it’s, you know, you know, I had a client [00:30:00] who had a football injury and lost the scholarship, you know, like, things happen.

Right? Things happen that are painful. And, you know, especially from men, I would say, and I know I’m going to maybe get in trouble for this, but the idea of like, not being able to process it and needing to be a tough kid and all that stuff. And then, then you go into the service and there’s going to be more compartmentalizing, more repressing.

And then you come out and you start becoming kind of volatile or reactive. And Gee, why? Well, I’ve got years of stuff that I’ve repressed and now how do I process them? How do I let them come out slowly? How do I put down the alcohol or whatever the substance is so I can start dealing with this? And you brought up a whole other topic, which I thought about for vets and for human beings getting sober is grief.

I mean, grief is the huge underlying issue. You know, I do think, especially for [00:31:00] vets, you know, God, I think about my dad. I mean, my dad, every veteran’s day would break down sobbing and, you know, and he’s taught, and he would talk about people, you know, his best friend whose head, you know, was lost next to him.

And, you know, my dad got a Purple Heart and saw combat and, and, and. You know, he was still severely affected and severely, you know, crippled by that grief years later. Um, so it’s really important to have a place to process that and have a safe place. Go ahead.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. Um, the, being able to, to deal with that, you know, you hear about this all the time, you know, World War II veterans, Vietnam era veterans, Korea, uh, you know, they, they’re dealing with stuff, but back then, especially, gosh, I, I, I couldn’t imagine you’re coming back and, you know, you’re just, you’re Told to just suck it up, be a man, deal with it.

You know, that, that type of [00:32:00] stuff. And like, that’s not helpful. Like

Dr. Sarah Michaud: There was no name for it, I think, back

Scott DeLuzio: yeah. And I mean, maybe it was like, you know, shell shock or,

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Schnell’s jock, right,

Scott DeLuzio: those lines. Right. But that wasn’t, uh, that, that was, that was like, I think the label that they gave to, to like the extreme cases, like the person who’s sitting in the corner, you know, in the fetal position shaking and, you know, kind of mumbling to themselves, like that was.

That was Shellshock back then. But there was a whole lot of other people who were dealing

Dr. Sarah Michaud: absolutely.

Scott DeLuzio: which just didn’t have a name back then. Um, and all they were told was like, well, just deal with it. Like you, you gotta come back home and you got a family to, to provide for and you have a job to go to and you have this and you have that and that, that’s what you gotta do.

And okay, that’s what they did. You know, how much better would they have been? And we’re talking about like the greatest generation, right? But think about how much greater they would have been if they [00:33:00] had some sort of support to get them through, um, you know, some of these difficult situations. I want to talk, uh, I briefly mentioned

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Yeah, sure.

Scott DeLuzio: stuff, but I want to talk about, uh, a little bit more about the codependency, right?

Um, because I mentioned that. You know, obviously it’s a good thing to care for a loved one who is struggling with something. You got to care for those people and help them, you know, marriage and sickness and in health, like we’re going to

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Of course.

Scott DeLuzio: each of it, right?

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Yes.

Scott DeLuzio: There comes a time when it. Maybe is, becomes a problem for the, let’s just call it the caregiver person, the person who’s giving care to that other person where now that person’s whole identity, their whole life is kind of focused around helping this person.

How do we identify that? When, when are we approaching that? It’s becoming a problem. And how do we deal with that [00:34:00] so that it doesn’t become a problem? You know, kind of go back to that root cause. How do we, how do we get to the point where, where it’s, where it’s not a problem for that, that caregiver type

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Yeah. Well, getting some education about what it is. How it affects me, the kind of delusional system around it is really important. And that’s what we’re talking about. I mean, the thing is, I believe, and that same psychiatrist, Gabor Mate, wrote a book called When the body says no. And basically his second book was about all these physical illnesses.

And he talks about the physiological changes that happens in your system when you’re focused just on someone else. Like that whole book literally to me is about the consequences of codependency. And I believe codependency kills people because I’ve known people and this is [00:35:00] extreme, right? If you were. If you spend years focusing, say you did it in your childhood, say it started in your childhood where your mom was depressed or your dad was an alcoholic, for example.

So what, so what you learn in that environment is I need to be hyper vigilant to my environment. I need to focus on what’s happening out there with these folks. For me to be safe because everything’s up in the air and a lot of people grow up kind of in chaos. And I mean, listen, parents aren’t perfect and there’s all kinds of mental health issues and addiction issues and trauma issues.

So everybody has something. So if you grow up focused on what your parents need or your siblings need, rather than what you need, it’s going to set the seed For other people are more important than me and I’m not talking about just being compassionate. I’m a compassionate person. I’m talking about where the [00:36:00] focus is really on what they need, how to fix them, how to change them, how to save them, how to get them well, how to save them from their addiction, how to get rid of their depression.

It becomes like my partner’s problems now become mine and the, yes. The problem with that is the codependent person has severe consequences. So what’s going to start happening is I’m going to start getting depressed. I’m going to start getting chronic headaches. I’m going to start having panic attacks.

I’m going to start drinking like the codependent literally starts having all of the same symptoms You know, really loses touch with their own self care. The first, the first symptom that you know is someone a codependent is they’re really, their self care goes down and um, [00:37:00] you know, people will stop going to doctors and stop taking care of themselves and say, oh no, no, my husband needs this or my partner needs this.

The other codependent arena that we’re not even discussing is parenting. Oh my God, don’t get me started. Parents these days, are so codependent. Your book was great because I think the idea of self reliance and independence and stuff like that, but so many parents because of their own fear now are way too involved in managing their kids lives rather than letting them have consequences of their own behaviors.

So that’s what codependency is, is I’m going to try to stop you from having a consequence. So, you know, the classic example was like, say my husband drinks too much and the next day his boss calls, I lie on the phone. I say, Oh, you know, he’s sick. So I start kind of trying to cover [00:38:00] up and manage my partner’s illness.

And again, the big lie that I talk about in my book is. I can’t manage my partner’s illness. I can’t get them sober. I can’t get rid of their depression. I can’t solve their problems. I can be supportive, but they are the ones that have to do that, right? You know that. I mean, my partner has to figure out his depression.

And in fact, the more I bug him and try to like, I’m, I got a bunch of different things going on in my brain, but I had a client once. Who had a daughter who was a substance abuser and she came in with two lists and one list was about 25 things of things she told her daughter to do. She made a doctor’s appointment.

She got her into treatment. She did, you know, and literally the daughter had done none of them. And the other [00:39:00] list was five things. And the daughter had done all of them and the reason is because they were the daughter’s ideas. So that kind of gives you a feeling for, you know, all codependency does. Is ruin relationships really?

Because one person is trying to control another and the other just gets resentful. Now, does it come from a good place? Well, yeah, you know, you love someone and you think, Oh, I see that they need to get sober. So I’m going to make an appointment with you know, or whatever, you know. So you’re trying to be helpful, but in the end, most of the time it doesn’t help the other person and it doesn’t help the codependent.

Okay. You probably have lots of questions.

Scott DeLuzio: I do. Yeah. And so to me, it’s like they almost need to see the light for themselves. They need to figure out they being the person who’s addicted to the [00:40:00] person who has a problem, whatever the issue is, maybe it’s a PTSD, maybe it’s a drinking, maybe it’s a drugs, maybe it’s a something that whatever it is, they need to see the light for themselves and they need to figure out.

That, oh my gosh, yeah, that is a problem. That’s not the type of person I want to be. I want to, uh, you know, I want to be able to be, you know, uh, supportive and provide for my family and, and, and do those types of things. But they need to figure that out on their own, because if, you know, you, you think about even just, you know, You know, sitcom television, you got like the nagging, the nagging wife, who’s always telling the husband, Oh, take the trash out.

Do, do this, do that, do that, you know, whatever. And the husband’s just like, Oh my God, really? I got to listen to this again. And, and they, they start to tune it out. And even if what the, what the person is saying is a hundred percent correct, a hundred percent accurate. Yes, you need to get sober. Like you absolutely do.

Um, but. Yeah, but you keep nagging me about it. I’m going to start [00:41:00] tuning it out. And, and all of a sudden now we’re switching it from. Hey, we have this, this equal partnerships and we’re, we’re there, we’re in it together for each other. And now it becomes a, if they tell me to do anything, I’m going to do the opposite or, you know, I’m going to do it.

Even I’m going to do that thing even harder if they tell me not to just in spite of them and. That’s not a healthy way to have any sort of relationship with someone either. Um, and so, so when, when you, you have these types of situations, you, you really do have to, um, just, I think, be open to the fact that things are not going to be perfect, um, but you might, you might be able to have better luck if you can help Help them see, help them see the light.

I don’t,

Dr. Sarah Michaud: right.

Scott DeLuzio: don’t know how else to put that, but hopefully that makes sense.[00:42:00]

Dr. Sarah Michaud: It totally makes sense. And I’m going to tell you how you help them to see the light. is you stop trying to save them. So this is the thing. The only way that my partner is going to want to get sober is if he or she has consequences of his behaviors. If I keep jumping in and saving and fixing and managing, They’re not going to have any consequences.

So that’s called enabling, which I’m sure you’ve heard that term, right? Where, and this is the counter intuitiveness of codependency recovery. The solution to getting my partner sober, okay, is focusing on myself. Okay. I know that sounds crazy, but seriously, when I start shifting the focus, To taking care of me [00:43:00] and letting them do their thing, have consequences of their behaviors, suffer the consequences, have their feelings.

Have their feelings of, Oh my God, what is it like to miss work? What is it like to not be there for my son? What is it like to miss that baseball game? What is it like to, you know, wake up in my car outside rather than my wife coming out and getting me? I mean, this is the stereo stereotype, but still, when you allow the person to really feel what they’re doing.

Then they’re going to want to get sober. They’re not going to get sober because I’m telling them to. They’re going to get sober when I stop telling them to. That’s the, that’s the counterintuitiveness.

Scott DeLuzio: You know, in, in my book I wrote about how with my PTSD and my, the grief that I was going through and all the, the anger issues and everything like that, that I was going through. [00:44:00] Um. My wife didn’t, wasn’t really ever nagging me about, oh, go get help, go do this, go do that, and it was never a nagging situation.

You have to, or, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Right.

Scott DeLuzio: It was, it was one of those things where she just kind of like gave me the space to Do what I needed to do. Um, and eventually I came to that conclusion on my own that this is not working. This is not the type of person I want to be. I don’t want to be angry all the time.

I don’t want my son growing up with an angry dad who’s yelling all the time and screaming and, you know, just seems like he has to walk on eggshells just to be around me. And like, that’s not the type of person I wanted to be. I didn’t want to be that for my wife either. Um, or, or really anybody else, but.

That’s who I was at that point. And, and so I, you know, kind of came to that conclusion, uh, you know, on my own. And I was like, this, this is it. This is not the type of person I want to [00:45:00] be. Um, and, and so the next morning that’s when I called and got help. And, you know, I made that appointment and that was, to me, that was scary to do.

And, and, you know, that’s your, your typical guy, you know, essentially a smolderer who’s, who’s, who’s basically the fixer. You go out and help other people. And now I’m asking for help to fix myself. Like that. This

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Whole other topic.

Scott DeLuzio: right? Yeah. Yeah. So, so that’s, that’s, I think what people are dealing with.

I know in least in my situation, it sounds very similar to what you were describing, um, but that’s just kind of what we deal with and we’d need to kind of break that cycle and not have the. The pressure on ourselves to go and fix somebody else. We, we can, we can do this by working on ourselves, improving ourselves.

And a lot of times when, when you’re in an environment where [00:46:00] people are excelling and succeeding, it’s like, well, hell, I want, I want that too. And how do I, how do I do that? And you start emulating kind of the things that they’re doing. It’s like, okay, well, they’re, they’re taking care of themselves.

They’re doing, doing the things that they need to do. Well, what are the things that I need to do? And you start, start figuring that out. Right. So, um, I know we’re kind of getting close on time here. So I want to give you a chance to, you mentioned your book. I want to give you a chance to talk a little bit about that.

Tell them what the book’s all about, uh, where they can get a copy, all that kind of

Dr. Sarah Michaud: sure, sure. So I wrote a book on codependency and addiction. It’s part memoir and part self help. So anybody that struggles with codependency or addiction, it’s called co crazy. And the reason I call it co crazy is because most of my patients who come into my office with relationship problems, they say they feel crazy.

That’s what they say. You’re trying to fix someone else [00:47:00] and meanwhile both of you are getting worse. It’s very hard to figure out what the solution is. So it’s called Go Crazy. You can get it on Amazon. I also have a website drsarahmichaud. com and there’s, you know, lots of, um, support on there. Some podcasts.

I have a YouTube channel called Leaving Crazy Town. You can email me, you know, questions, whatever. I’m there to help. So absolutely.

Scott DeLuzio: Excellent. And I will have links to all of that in the show notes too, for folks who. Are interested in checking it out. Check out your website, the book, uh, that type of stuff. I’ll have all of those links in there. Um, before we wrap up this episode, um, I, I always like to end an episode with a little bit of humor.

Um, I, I think humor could be the best medicine and I don’t think you can. You can abuse that or overdo it with, with that. I think that’s one of those, those safe medications with, um, the only side effects are good side effects, I think. And, um, you know, I, I try to be funny, uh, when [00:48:00] I tell these jokes.

Sometimes I, they flop and they’re not all that funny. And if you want to laugh at me, That’s fine too. I don’t care. As long as I get someone to laugh, that that’s all good. So, um, here’s a joke. So there’s a kid, he’s going to his first day of school and he looks, looks around and he looks worried and his dad asks him, uh, what’s going on?

What’s wrong? And, and the kid goes, well, how long do I have to go to school for? And the father says, 18. And the kid nods his head and thinks about it. And he got to the front gates of the school and the kid turns around and asks his dad, dad, are you going to remember to come get me when I’m 18? Which I think the reason why I thought that that joke was a good one is because, you know, kids like a five year old kid going to

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Absolutely.

Scott DeLuzio: They don’t have concept of, of time, like how long is 18 years and, and all that. Like they, it just is a kind of [00:49:00] foreign concept though, almost to them. Uh, you know, I, I, I thought about my, my own kids, like as, you know, we’re bringing them to their first days of school and, um, you know, what their thoughts were, like, as they’re getting dropped off and, um, you know, we, we never really talked about that, but, you know, they know. They know now that they don’t have to wait till they’re 18, at least. We will come and pick them up. So, um, anyways,

Dr. Sarah Michaud: is great. Humor is such a great coping skill.

Scott DeLuzio: is, it is. I think, I think that’s something that we need to do. It actually, my kids, um, for, for Father’s Day, I got this book, Dad Jokes, another extra punny. So, um, I am going to be utilizing some of these in future episodes.

And,

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Excellent.

Scott DeLuzio: you know, we can throw another one real quick, a quick, short one. When’s a door, not a door. When it’s a jar,

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Gosh. Yeah. Those punny dad jokes. I so appreciate it.[00:50:00]

Scott DeLuzio: that’s what everyone has to look forward to, uh, with this show. And I, I’m, I could see like the listeners are just going to tank after that, after I, after I made that announcement,

Dr. Sarah Michaud: so important though, because

Scott DeLuzio: the eye rolls are going to start, you know, they’re going to,

Dr. Sarah Michaud: it’s so critical, you know, in, in my work and even on my YouTube channel, I do it with an attorney who’s been sober. And the reason we do it is because we try to have fun talking about really serious topics. And this is the same with your podcast. You’re talking about trauma and PTSD and addiction.

Homelessness and all these things. And it’s really important to kind of pull the lens back and get a bigger perspective. So I appreciate it.

Scott DeLuzio: I love it. I love it. Good, good perspective there. So thank you. And thank you for taking the time to come on the show. Thank you for your book and the work that you do. Um, and we’ll, we’ll, uh, you said you’re going to get a couple of copies over this way and I’ll, I’ll do, I’ll do something, uh, maybe a giveaway or something on, on social media and get, get some folks who, uh, you know, want to, want to grab a [00:51:00] copy of that book and we’ll get some, some interest out about that.

So, uh, for the listeners, stay tuned for that and, and, uh, you know, check out that. That giveaway when, uh, when it,

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Yes.

Scott DeLuzio: comes out. So, so thank you again, uh, Sarah and,

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Thank you so much.

Scott DeLuzio: to chatting with you again. I

Dr. Sarah Michaud: Yes, absolutely. Let me know anything you need. This was a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Scott DeLuzio: Thanks for listening to the Drive On Podcast. If you want to support the show, please check out Scott’s book, Surviving Son on Amazon. All of the sales from that book go directly back into this podcast and work to help veterans in need. You can also follow the Drive On Podcast on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube, and wherever you listen to podcasts.