Episode 413 D Paul Fleming The Battle Against Veteran Suicide Transcript

This transcript is from episode 413 with guest D Paul Fleming.

Scott DeLuzio: [00:00:00] Thanks for tuning in to the Drive On Podcast where we are focused on giving hope and strength to the entire military community. Whether you’re a veteran, active duty, guard, reserve, or a family member, this podcast will share inspirational stories and resources that are useful to you. I’m your host, Scott DeLuzio, and now let’s get on with the show.

Hey everyone. Welcome back to Drive On. I’m your host, Scott DeLuzio. And today my guest is Doug Fleming. Uh, Doug is a Navy veteran and author of the book, A Date With Suicide. In his book and a series of articles, Paul, uh, sorry, Doug addresses the critical issue of veteran suicide by exploring what it means to be a veteran.

The trauma from service, transitioning out of service and suicide. Telling your story. And today we’ll dive into his insights on these topics and discuss how we can combat the growing [00:01:00] issue of veteran suicide. So, uh, before we get into that, uh, Doug, welcome to the show. Uh, in the intro there, I kind of had a little flub with the name there.

Your, your author name is D. Paul Fleming, and your, your first name, Doug, uh, is what we’re going by, but I, I slipped up and threw the Paul in there as well. So, um, welcome to the show. Uh, glad to have you here.

D Paul Fleming: It’s all good, Scott. You know, so you did a great job on the intro. Thank you much.

Scott DeLuzio: I did up until that one point, and then I, I really, I kind of had to catch myself. So I guess I, I had to explain why I, why I messed that up for the listeners, but, um, we got through it. Anyways, um, so tell us a little bit about yourself and the, the book that you, you wrote, um, uh, a date with suicide, kind of give us some of the backstory and kind of what led up to, uh, writing the book.

D Paul Fleming: [00:02:00] Yeah, so that’s kind of a, it’s kind of a loaded question. Let me see if I can, uh, let me see if I can cliff note it.

Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

D Paul Fleming: Um, so I’ve been dealing with mental health issues for the better part of my life. And it was only about 10 years ago or so that I started really coming to terms with severe PTSD and You know, spending far too many nights, uh, with the opportunity and intent to kill myself.

Um, and finally I got to a point where I said, listen, I’ve either got to finish this and, and, you know, end my life or I’ve got to find peace. So that is the kind of precursor to how I ended up writing books. Um, which again, I never thought I would, but, um, I’m in that community of, of vets that have struggled with mental health issues.

And I’m pre 9 11 vet and post, uh, [00:03:00] Vietnam vet. So guys like us fall into a wheelhouse of. You know, kind of the bottom of the cracker barrel, if you will. Um, but following on the heels of what the Vietnam veterans did to give all veterans better access to things like, um, the VA and mental health, I’m, I’m working hard to build on their legacy to help my generation and the, uh, Post 9 11 generation, uh, deal with, uh, the things that, that are, that are coming at us at, uh, you know, like a, like a train, like a freight train, you know, without brakes.

Not sure how many folks realize it, but 50 people, 50 veterans a day commit suicide. That’s just a number that, uh, Um, statistically, we can show, but the reality is I personally believe it’s closer to a hundred veterans a day commit suicide.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Um, you know, that number, you know, there’s the catchy number [00:04:00] that gets thrown around the 22 a day that, you know, everyone kind of relates with. I’ve always said, I, whatever that number is, I, I feel like it’s, it’s higher. Um, it, it, It just, it’s not that I want it to be, obviously. Um, I, I, I want it to be zero.

Um, but I, I feel like whatever gets reported, um, maybe a little tinfoil hat situation going on here, but whatever is being reported is not, uh, an accurate, uh, number. And so, um, you know, when, when you have many, uh, people, whether it’s 22, whether it’s 50, whether it’s a hundred, when you have that many people who are coming to that.

Decision, um, in their life, that point in their life where that just is the option that they, they take, uh, you know, you got a problem and something needs to be done. And that’s, that’s why this show exists. We, we want to help people get [00:05:00] through these dark times. We all have times in our lives that are harder than others.

And, um, you know, sometimes we need a little help and You know, I’ve needed it. You’ve needed it. Other people have needed it. Um, but sometimes you just don’t know where to start. You don’t know where to even turn and who to ask. Right. And, and you coming from, uh, the, that in between era, you know, post Vietnam, pre 9 11, um, I’ve heard from a lot of guys who served during that time period.

Um, who, who kind of felt like the same way where, where they, they were In that bottom of the barrel, like not, not looked at as, as great as they, like maybe other veterans had been looked at, but also not as bad as some of the others, like in the Vietnam era, um, you know, where the way they were [00:06:00] treated when they got back.

But, um, you know, you, you talk about, um, you know, being a veteran and, and, and what does, what does that mean for somebody? Um, what does that What does that mean to you as far as being a veteran coming from your, your era? Um, what, what does that label mean for you and how do you kind of identify with that?

D Paul Fleming: Yeah. So one of the, one of the topics I bring up early in the book, A Date With Suicide, um, I bring it up early and I, and I refer to it often because how we feel as veterans. Affects our mental health. And when I came out of the service, you didn’t really tell people you were a veteran. You kept it kind of in hushed whispers.

And, you know, again, we were dealing with the post Vietnam and I’m not trying to equate my experience to Vietnam veterans coming home and being treated pretty, pretty violently, to be honest, but I lived through that. [00:07:00] And I watched that and I dealt with a lot of vets that were closer to my age. Um, um, would tell us how they were treated in firsthand accounts.

So they told you now, because don’t, don’t tell people you’re a veteran. Then when 9 11 happened, you know, the world changed and all of a sudden it was not just popular to, to be a veteran, but it was a, it was a cool thing and that’s kind of where the thank you for your service, uh, blossomed in my opinion.

Okay. So that, that shift is happening again now where it’s dipping back into the Uh, the, the Vietnam era mentality where people are starting to kind of, uh, not be so friendly towards veterans. For me, um, I kind of lost a piece of who I am when I left the military and then was kind of poo pooed by the veterans world, right?

It’s a big thing to, to be one of the 1 percent of the population that serves this country. [00:08:00] And when you do serve the country and then you don’t feel the pride of being a veteran, it takes a toll on you and it’s not just a physical toll, but a mental toll, an emotional toll, and the toughest one of all, a spiritual toll.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, for sure. And you know, when you serve, when you’re in combat or, or even stateside, when you’re, Serving with people, you had that group of people, that camaraderie with those people that you served with. And, you know, it’s always the guy to your left, the guy to your right, and, and you’re looking out for each other.

But then when you have an experience like you did, where you got out, And then didn’t really fit in with that community or didn’t feel like you fit in with that community of other veterans. Um, it’s like, well, like who am I now? You know, [00:09:00] if I’m not, if I don’t fit in with the people who are serving and I don’t fit in with the people who don’t, don’t are not serving anymore, then where do I fit in?

Um, and yeah, I could see how that could definitely take a toll on, uh, that, uh, that identity. Um, Because as you’re, as you’re serving, um, you do, that does become a piece of you, um, uh, whether whatever branch you might serve in, that becomes a piece of who you are. And, um, then you take off that uniform for the last time and you got to kind of fill that hole with something, right?

D Paul Fleming: Yes, finding a purpose post military is one of the biggest talking points that I put out there. Along with, you know, anybody else trying to help vets, um, and family members of vets understand, uh, mental health. Um, but losing your purpose post military and re trying to reclaim an identity, re [00:10:00] reposition yourself, it becomes, um, um, a struggle for a lot of us.

And for me, I don’t, I don’t fit into the civilian world and I’ve given up trying to, um, trying to fit in. And more importantly. In talking with others, I keep saying the same thing. It’s like, listen, we’re veterans. We’re kind of our own group. It’s okay not to fit in with civilians. And it’s okay not to fit in with, you know, other vets.

But at the same breath, we all, we all put the flag on our shoulder. We all did the things that we said we were going to do and gave up a portion of our lives, whether it was a few years or, or 20 plus. We’re veterans. And for me, we’ve got to stop trying to fit in to something that we’re simply not. It’s like, it’s like trying to get a civilian to say, well, I’m going to stop being a civilian, and I’m going to be a military person.

It’s like, well, no, because you have to go through all those experiences to qualify, so to speak. So why are we trying to put that [00:11:00] square peg into the round hole and be part of, you know, feel like a civilian? We’re not. We, we need to be veterans, need to feel like veterans. We need to accept the way the civilians act.

And, you know, a lot of them are asking us, how, how do we interact with you now? And, um, you know, we’re, we’re, we’re making headway in that sense. You know, like when veterans want to talk, they’re going to ask, you know, or they’re going to tell you, but they don’t want you to tell, they don’t want you to respond.

They don’t want you to judge us. They just want to be heard, and that’s one of the big gaps between civilians and veterans.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, I can see that. Um, for sure. Um, and, and we definitely don’t, I don’t think we def, we definitely don’t want, uh, civilians telling us how we should or shouldn’t feel and how we

D Paul Fleming: yet they do.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and then they do, right? And, and we, we get that experience and it’s like, well, who the hell are you to tell me who I feel, you know, or how I should feel.

[00:12:00] Um,

D Paul Fleming: In fairness, Scott, they’re coming at it from a civilian, and to give all of our civilian brothers credit, they want to come forward to help. You know, when you see somebody hurting, people either do this or they step forward to help, right? They see somebody missing an arm, for an example, and they walk over and they want to touch your other arm.

It’s like, look, don’t touch me, man.

Scott DeLuzio: yeah,

D Paul Fleming: Well, that, that, that’s coming from fear because when, when people don’t understand something, they naturally want to say something like, Oh my God, are you okay? Right? They just don’t understand it. And that’s, again, a gap in communication between veterans and civilians.

And which is going to be easier, to teach veterans how to understand civilians, Or to teach civilians how to understand veterans,

Scott DeLuzio: it would, in my, My estimation, I, I would guess it would probably be easier to teach [00:13:00] veterans how to understand civilians, right? Because I mean, we’ve all been a civilian at one point or another, right? Up, up until at least 18, you know, we, we were civilians. Um, you know, in some cases maybe even later, um. But no civilians had been military at all. And so they don’t have that, uh, experience. And so that’s, that’s my thought on that. Is that, that I’m guessing based on your reaction, that’s, that’s your thought as well.

D Paul Fleming: right? Again, it’s, it’s common sense and almost a no brainer. So it, again, it’s so much easier for me to help veterans by saying, stop trying to be a veteran and I mean, a civilian and stop trying to figure civilians out, just kind of explain to them what it’s like to be you and, and, and tell them, I’m not looking for your judgment and I’m not looking for your responses.

You asked a question. I gave you the answer. That was it. [00:14:00] That was it.

Scott DeLuzio: And it should just be that simple and, and, you know, kind of leave it at that. Um,

D Paul Fleming: if we can get 330 million civilians to show up for your podcast, right, we can educate them. We can

Scott DeLuzio: I mean, this, this probably, we’d have this problem licked in no time.

D Paul Fleming: Well, come on, Scott, get up there to 330 million Americans. All on your shoulders there, Scott.

Scott DeLuzio: I’m no, no pressure, but I’m going to, I’m just going to like rent a truck and just drive it around the country, just playing this episode. And listen to this and you got to understand it. And then, uh,

D Paul Fleming: I give you, I give you, I give you a month, but you got to have it done.

Scott DeLuzio: no pressure. Um, all right, let’s, let’s kind of, uh, maybe go to a problem that’s a little more, uh, easily solvable than, than me getting 330 million people to listen to this episode. Um, you know, [00:15:00] serious, in all seriousness, um, you know, there are veterans, uh, service members, people who, um, are in, I just call it the military community, um, that have experienced a bunch of different types of traumas.

Um, Some related to combat, some not so much. Um, but there’s a lot of different types of trauma, uh, that are out there. Um, I would imagine, and I don’t know for sure that I would imagine that some may have more, uh, correlation to a risk for suicide or at least suicide attempts. Um, is there any data on that or anything that you have any kind of background on as far, as far as that goes?

D Paul Fleming: Yeah, so, um, again, the, the, when we’re talking within the veterans community, it’s a lot easier to make these points, but getting civilians to understand it gets a little more tricky. So, I try to do it like this. It takes between 8 and 10 military [00:16:00] people to get one soldier in the field pointing a weapon downrange.

Okay, so roughly 8 to 10, right? Could be 7, could be 12. But if it takes all that to field one combat soldier, how can our statistics be north of 50 suicides a day? Because we can’t be losing 50 combat veterans a day, right? Well, and we, and back when the number was 22, why is it going up? Okay. Well, all right.

Post wars and everything else, but look at the demographics of who the suicides are. The majority of suicides are men, white men over 60. Okay. Now this is getting, this is out of control. Now you’d think this was a, would be a new phenomenon, but it’s not. Rick Weidman, number two at VVA would tell me time and time again at these VetForce meetings that the Vietnam era veterans over 60 were the highest rate for suicide and you kind of go, well, why?

And the answer is rather simple. Once we get [00:17:00] on in years and the world around us starts slowing down, guess what we’ve got time to do? Think. So, let me give you an example of one guy that just recently killed himself. Okay, let me give you two. One’s a Navy SEAL, highly trained, all the skills in the world, got sick, said I had enough, shot himself in the heart, okay, didn’t want people to deal with it.

Now, you kind of got to look at that one with a, with a puzzled look, okay. But then there’s the kid that was, um, unloading, uh, metal boxes and with flags in Maryland. He couldn’t take it. He did it for almost two years straight, and that was it, right? Got out of the military, killed himself shortly thereafter.

Left a note reflecting it, and it devastated his family, and he was never in combat. I’ll give you one more example. When I was in boot camp, and I write about this in the book. Boot camp. I had to deal with a, um, shipmate. Who, you know, at zero dark 30 broke his back apart and slashed his wrist. There was blood everywhere.

[00:18:00] I tell the story in the book to make this point. We, we will never understand another person’s trauma. You know, getting yelled at at bootcamp for me was, this was, I was bored in bootcamp to be honest. Okay. But the effect that it had on others to the point of this one kid from the Bronx, this was a tough kid, right?

Nobody in the, I never thought he would do it, but when he tried to kill himself in the middle of the night, in the four hours of sleep that you get, I thought then, wow, man, what a coward, right? But as I got older and now I’m looking back on it, I realized that the trauma that he went through was so much that he couldn’t take it anymore.

He couldn’t, he could have just stood up and said, I quit. I go AWOL. But he had to take it to the point of suicide. So we can’t judge another person’s trauma. And more importantly, it doesn’t matter what job you’ve done in the military. It could have been bootcamp that caused something to [00:19:00] switch. Or it could have been some of the other stories I tell in the book about having to be perfectly groomed from start to finish, okay?

Sometimes those things are traumatic to other people to the point of it rewires their brain. And let me hit the last point. Most folks don’t know this. The third highest suicide rate is women, female veterans. Right now, 20 percent of the military is made up of women, and yet they’re the third highest suicide rate.

Scott DeLuzio: which that is actually, uh, shockingly high when, when you think about it, if, if only a fifth of the military is, uh, is women and they’re the third highest demographic for, uh, for that, that suicide, uh, number. That’s pretty high. Um, you know, and, and that might, [00:20:00] that might need some addressing and they’re, they’re, I’m sure there’s other issues too, with, uh, women veterans that may, I don’t want to say men don’t have the same issues, uh, but maybe not at the same rate.

Um, there’s some sexual trauma that probably takes place, uh, that more often with women than with men. Um, and that might be. a contributing factor. There might be some other things as well. Um, you know, I, I don’t know. I’m not a woman, so I, you know, you

D Paul Fleming: I may.

Scott DeLuzio: yeah, but you go ahead.

D Paul Fleming: If I may, the last DOD, the most recent DOD report released showed 36, 000 reported cases of sexual abuse. Anything from harassment to outright rape, 36, 000 in a one year period. Now the female vets that I talked to, including Christine Walker, who owns um, At Ease Veterans Magazine, and others, all tell me the same thing.

Listen, the majority of those reports [00:21:00] don’t, you know, the majority of those incidences don’t get reported. So if they have 36, 000 reports, what’s the actual number? Now, 2. 5 or 2. 4 percent of that report is actually males reporting sexual trauma. And what I didn’t know until, um, on veterans event last week was the amount of men who are raped in the military.

I didn’t even know that existed until I sat down with a group of folks, um, that, you know, had been heavily engaged in that. So that kind of caught me wildly.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Um, I, I know that it does happen. I didn’t know the, the rate of how frequent that, that it happened, but, um, Yeah, that’s, that’s something that you just don’t, you don’t think about very often. Um, uh, and, and so there’s a, I guess a wide range of issues and, and for, um, people who may or may not [00:22:00] have even served in combat, um, like you were saying before, you know, it takes eight to 10, uh, soldiers to get one soldier, uh, pointing a rifle down range in, in a combat zone.

Well, okay. There’s, there’s a lot more people who are not. In a combat position, then, then there are who are in a combat position. And so those people are dealing with something too. So it’s not just the effects of combat, um, you know, based on, on those numbers. Um, I got to imagine one thing that we all have in common. Any, any veteran, there’s one thing that we do have in common. It’s transitioning out of the military. Um, that, like you said, is a significant challenge.

Um, you know, it was for you. Um, you know, what are some of the things that, that you’ve, you’ve seen that, that people have kind of dealt with in that transition and, and how can they address them to kind of make that transition a little bit easier?[00:23:00]

D Paul Fleming: Well, um, about a year ago, I was on a podcast with a gentleman who’s got, uh, um, Ryan who does, um, Everlasting Veteran, you know, he does a great job like you do on, on getting the issues out there. And his focus was on transition. I’ve spent a hard year before releasing the book, researching it, um, for my transition, I didn’t know I was homeless.

I left the military. I was homeless. I lived on a triple decker back porch in Boston with a guy I grew up with who was a five year deal up at Northeastern in Boston. I didn’t consider myself homeless, but I was. I was living in my truck. I was living on a back porch. Okay, and it wasn’t the first time that I’d been homeless.

So until I really kind of looked, you know, drew back and started looking into this transition, it kind of dawned on me. I stuffed deep. The transition that I had from the Navy, because man, when, when I left that boat, they stripped my identity. I was a critical part of the greatest submarine in the history of the [00:24:00] world, right?

The USS Dallas, the boat made fancy or famous by Tom Clancy, right? I was an integral part of that boat and deployed for two plus years on a three year ride on that. And once I cross that gangplank for the last time, I was escorted off the base by two 17 18 year old kids who, you know, didn’t know anything, right?

And shoved me, you know, didn’t shove me, but, you know, kind of made sure I was through the gate. Once I was on the other side and I’m looking around, I’m like, now what do I do, right? All of my existence to that point in my life was stripped from me. And I’m at, I’m at zero. And now I’ve got to go start and figure this thing out.

Okay. I have a deep faith. So that kind of helped me along. But far too many guys get caught in that transition and it being stripped. You lose your identity. You lose your purpose. You lose your focus. And most importantly, you lose your safety. What do I mean by safety? Well, you’ve said it, Scott. Your brother to your left, your brother to your right, your sister in front of you doesn’t Right?

Wherever you are, you’re [00:25:00] surrounded. No matter what base you walk on, you’ve got that same mentality. Once you leave All that’s gone. That’s another piece that weighs in on your path to a date with suicide.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And there’s, there’s other components, safety components as well that are built into military life. A steady paycheck coming in, you know, every month, you know, you’re, you’re getting paid and you know that your, uh, medical, uh, you know, issues are, are being taken care of and housing and food. And there’s a lot of things that are just kind of.

Take care of for you. Now, I’m not saying that you’re getting paid extravagantly, you know, as, as a soldier, as a sailor, as a, you know, whatever branch you’re in, you’re not, it’s, we can leave that debate for another day for, you know, are we getting paid enough in the military? Um, [00:26:00] As long as you’re, you know, you set a budget and you stick to it and you, you live within those, those means, you know, you, you know, that that money’s coming in, um,

D Paul Fleming: many 22 year olds have you met that went from, you know, 17 joined the military, 22, 23 coming out that understand the budget?

Scott DeLuzio: uh, probably, probably zero.

D Paul Fleming: So even figuring out a checking account and bills and how to turn on electrical power and all of this crap that civilians kind of pick up the phone and call mom and say, hey, we’re all good, right? Guys coming out of the military, we’re not real good at picking up the phone and asking for help, are we?

Scott DeLuzio: No, no. And quite frankly, we’re, we’re trained to be the helpers, the people who go out and save the day and go, uh, you know, and it’s. glorified in the movies and everything too. You don’t, you don’t see someone, uh, you know, the hero of the movie, uh, go and pick up the phone and call, Hey, I need, I need help. I don’t know how to do this thing.

Uh, you [00:27:00] know, no, they, they figure it out. They MacGyver it or whatever. They, you know, they figure it out. Um,

D Paul Fleming: until they drowned trying.

Scott DeLuzio: yeah. And, and that’s, that’s glorified too, in the movies, it’s like, well, they did it all, they did everything that they possibly could, and they fought to the bitter end until, uh, until they couldn’t fight anymore, and, and that’s, that’s looked at as like a positive, virtuous type thing, but, it?

Uh, you know, I, I, I don’t know, I, I, Think if you had the, uh, if you set your ego aside and had the ability to pick up the phone and call somebody else or, or get some other assistance in there, uh, it might’ve been able to do more, you know? Um, but you gotta, you gotta be able to put that ego aside too, right?

D Paul Fleming: There’s a lot to it.

Scott DeLuzio: There is.

D Paul Fleming: it.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And I’m sure I’m, I’m oversimplifying it too, for, you know, purposes of simplicity here with the, the, [00:28:00] the show, we’re not, we’re not trying to make this a 10 hour long show where we dive into every, every conceivable, uh, uh, uh, you know, aspect of this. But I think the point is still valid, um, you know, um, and, And just knowing that there are people there to, who can help you, who are ready, willing, able to help you with whatever it is that you might be going through.

Um, I think that’s important to point out there. Um, you do it in so many other aspects of your life. Um, you, you ask for help. Um, whether you think of it as asking for help or not, but you, you ask for help when you go to the mechanic with your car and, you know, you get your car serviced, you’re asking somebody else for help.

Um, but a lot of times we don’t, we don’t look at the same way when we go in and need like mental health help. Um, you know, we, we do it with our [00:29:00] doctors. If we have, you know, something that’s bothering us, we go to the doctor and, and we get that checked out by the doctor or we break a leg or something. We go to the doctor and we get it fixed.

Yeah. We ask for help. Okay. Well, why can’t we do that for our mental health as well? You

D Paul Fleming: Yeah, and the biggest one is a single word. Anger. Have you ever met a veteran that you couldn’t see the anger in him or her?

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. I mean, it’s in there. I mean, some, some do a better job at hiding it than others, but, but it’s there.

D Paul Fleming: Right? But give, but poke them. Poke them. Provoke them a little bit. You know, again, veterans don’t, won’t do it to other vets because they know, but when you see a civilian poking at somebody, what’s wrong? What’s the matter? What are you doing? Okay, man, it spirals quickly, right? So, why, why are we, why are we angry?

In, in, uh, A Date With Suicide, it’s book one of roughly a ten book series. I’ve got forty topics laid [00:30:00] out that I’ve got to get through. And anger is going to lead book two. Alright, why? Well, anger, again, is the, every veteran I talk to, they are, some, some have their anger here, some are here, and some are just simmering.

I want to say, and the question becomes why, in the book, which focuses on answering two questions. What happened to me and why? Everything we’re looking at is veterans. We keep going back to those same two questions, right? So, why are we angry? Well, let’s think about it for a moment. What happens from the time that bus pulls up to that recruit command, And somebody pops on board and starts what?

Handing out flowers and daisies and you know, pretty invitations to please stop by for chow in the morning, right? No, they start pissing you off, right? That’s again, how are you gonna get people to do their job if you can’t get them to be motivated? And what’s the greatest motivator of all? Anger.

Scott DeLuzio: Anchor.

D Paul Fleming: You’re not gonna kill [00:31:00] somebody.

If you like them, it’s not an easy thing to do, right? But if you get that anger going, and you’ve got to go into combat or any other piece of the military, the anger is the motivator. The anger is the personal weapon of a warrior. Well, what we don’t get taught is to deprogram that anger, right? So, you could be the greatest wallflower in the world.

Go, I dare you, go through boot camp. Go do a couple years in the military, right? Put yourself in some deployments and some hot spots. I dare you not to come back angry. Again, you could just be angry at the way the whole thing was handled. You could be angry at a commander’s decision, right? I’m not going to do this.

Well, then you’re going to Leavenworth or you’re going to get shot. So, the anger is our biggest weapon, but it’s also our biggest Achilles heel. It’s the, it is, what did, what did, um, Dickinson said, the best of times, the worst of times? Right? The [00:32:00] worst possible thing and yet the best possible thing because to this day I don’t know a civilian that wouldn’t duck for cover behind a veteran who’s sporting a temper if bullets were flying.

Scott DeLuzio: Um, yeah. And, and I think they do a great job at teaching you to turn that anger on. Um, they, they do a terrible job teaching you how to turn it off. And, and when I, when I say that, like turn that anger off, off all the things that are associated with your military service. All the things that go with it.

When you take that uniform off, you’re no longer a soldier, a sailor, Marine, an airman, uh, you know, you’re, you’re no longer any of that. How do you get back into the civilian world? And how do you, how do you turn that off? Um, and, and look at those [00:33:00] two questions that you mentioned, what happened to me and why, and, and try to figure out, okay, what, what makes me tick, why am I the way that I am right now?

What, what happened? Um, And I know for me, looking at me from the time that I joined the military to the time I got out, two different people, um, it was not, uh, it was not the greatest of revelations when I, when I realized that, but it was like, yeah, I’m, I’m definitely not the same person that I was when I first joined.

Um, and so yeah, maybe those are great questions to reflect on. Like what happened in that time period? There had to be something. It wasn’t just me getting older and grumpier because I wasn’t even in that long to be that much older to be, you know, an old grumpy guy or whatever. But, um, you know, we, we do maybe have to examine those those questions on our, you know, on each individual basis.

Um, [00:34:00] and so. You told your story, and you’re, you’re telling your story, um, and you, you mentioned in the, early on in the episode, how you’re kind of a part of a, kind of a community, I guess, of, of people, uh, who are writing their stories and telling them that way, um, How does telling the story in your opinion, uh, sharing your experiences and things like that help help not only you, but help other veterans in their journey.

D Paul Fleming: Yeah, so the greatest thing a veteran can do for self, for him or herself, is to tell you a story. Tell you a story. It’s the, it’s the, it’s one of the things that I fought for, what, 40 years in the, in the veteran community, right? You know, I did 10 or 20 years in and out of the VA, fighting through that system, you know.

I mean, I’m still in it, but not the same way once, once we got choice and I can go to [00:35:00] private doctors. But, um, telling your story. For me, when I wrote my first book, 2442 Steps to Crazy, I had to tell a story of my childhood in order for me to personally get to be able to start telling stories like in boot camp when a guy tried to kill himself, okay?

When I started telling these stories, I actually cried for the first time that I can ever remember short of being You know, a very small kid, you know, maybe eight or ten for, for my guess, right? The weight that came off, and it wasn’t, you know, just sat down, wrote, and then boom, I was fine. It was a piece here, and a piece here, and a piece there, and it like processed, right, in reverse, deprogrammed, maybe, can I use that word?

But the more I wrote, and I got to tell you, my first book, I wrote it five, six times, to throw the thing away, and You know, this, this last book here, The Date With Suicide, I think I wrote [00:36:00] that thing four times before I finally could have the courage to finish the book and put it out there because it is literally telling your deepest, darkest secrets.

Now do I, does everybody got to do that? No, I just believe I’m called to take it to that level. I’m reading a book, I just finished a book by Donald Dunn, did 20 plus, 5 plus years. Um, playing over in Iraq and Afghanistan and his book is unlike my book. My book’s got some, some thickness to it. His book is about a quarter of that and it makes 10, 000 more points than mine does.

Okay. Echoes of a Warrior. I got to put down here, but Echoes of something by Donald Dunn. It’s an awesome, awesome book. It is short chapters, three, four pages, and he is telling his story. Thank you. Okay, he’s not, he doesn’t get into the blood and the guts and all that crap, but he, he hits the, the stuff that we as veterans, especially we as veterans with mental health issues [00:37:00] needed to hear.

And here’s the second part. If you’re a family member or a friend of a veteran, I encourage you to read these books because A Date With Suicide in Don Dunn’s book, that will give you insight into what’s happening inside the mind and the world of a veteran.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And to your point earlier, like that will be helpful for other people who are trying to figure it out, uh, figure out what’s going on with this person who is in my life. Maybe it’s a, a loved one, maybe it’s a coworker or a neighbor or something. Why, why is this person the way that they are? Um, why, why aren’t they, you know, quote unquote normal.

You know, whatever the hell that means, you know, but, you know, maybe having some insight, um, you know, through books like yours and, and, uh, Donald Dunn’s a book that you mentioned. He was actually on the show a couple of months ago. Um, you know, talking about his story and everything and, um, you know, part of the The reason why I have folks like you on the [00:38:00] show, um, is to share some of this background too, because, um, you know, it’s not just veterans who listen to the show or, you know, their, um, you know, service members there, there are family members, there’s neighbors and coworkers and, you know, other people who, uh, have a veteran in their life.

And, and they just, they want to understand what’s going on. How can I help this person? What can I do to support them? um, And you brought up a bunch of great points here. And, and it helps to just, Give a little bit of insight without having to go through it yourself. Um, because, you know, I don’t want everybody throughout the country to have to join the military just to understand why are all these people who were in the military coming out kind of messed up.

Um, that, that I think might end up making the problem. Well, it might end up making the problem worse, or there might just be so many people who are coming out that way. Finally, someone [00:39:00] says, Hey, we got to do something about this. You know, hopefully it doesn’t get to that point, but, um, you know, regardless, I, I think, um, you know, telling these stories is a great step.

Um, and I, I like, I like how you, you put that there. Um,

D Paul Fleming: every, let me jump in there. Every time you tell your story, just like you just did right there, you’re helping veterans and, and family members. Okay. And relatives or friends of veterans. Every time you tell your story.

Scott DeLuzio: Every time, um, and it may just be one person who you’re helping, uh, this time, you know, we, we might have, say only one person listens to this episode, which I know that’s not going to be the case, but, um, if that one person hears a story and, and take something away from it, even if that was true, if, even if it was just a one person, I don’t know, I, I still chalk it up as mission accomplished.

Like we still, you know, We still reach somebody. I still [00:40:00] have 329, 999, however many more thousand people to go by the end of the month, but it’s, it’s a good first step. You gotta, you gotta start somewhere, right?

D Paul Fleming: Let me jump on that, Scott. Look at it. Let’s look at this thing in reverse. And this is what I do with it. I look at my fellow vets in the eye and I say, listen, I don’t think committing suicide is a selfish act. All right. I live in so much pain that, you know, I’m not going to kill myself, but when I die, I’m like, all right, you know, I’m not in pain anymore.

All right. Physical, mental, emotional. It’s a lot different than it was with the work I’ve been doing. But, um, oh my God, I lost my train. Oh, these are, oh my God. Here’s what I was saying. Started to get funny on a serious topic, right? So, When one veteran kills himself, how many people does that affect? Just one.

Let’s take that conversation and reverse it, right? If today’s episode helps one person, let’s compare it to a veteran committing suicide. Around that veteran is at least 50 people, right? [00:41:00] Relatives, family members, cousins, friends. Okay, it could be hundreds, right? So, every time one veteran, 50 a day committing suicide.

50 people. Right? And then how far does that mushroom grow? Now put one in every single state in the United States, every single day, somebody is commit Well, the reverse must be true, right? If you’re helping one person, then who are they helping because they’re having the conversation? As I say, if you don’t know a veteran who committed suicide, give it a day.

You will. Okay, but if we help one person in that same, you know, stone in the middle of the pond effect, it is huge. May take a little bit more time, but I believe your work, Scott, grows like that ripple. Because once the day two, day three, day four of that veteran who killed himself, that ripple goes away and people are just left there scratching their head to [00:42:00] wonder why.

Right.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, um, you know, I, I feel like when the, that ripple effect, the, the, those other people who are connected to that, those 50 people, uh, who might be connected to that one person, uh, who are affected by it, Um, they may not even know when, that, that they have been helped by something like this. Um, and here’s why I say that, because until they feel the pain of a loss, they may not know the benefit of the, Prevention, uh, if, if you will, um, and if they never know that, that pain, um, they, they may not really even recognize it as, as [00:43:00] having been, been benefited by that, but I’m okay with that.

I would, I would rather have these people never know that they, that they were helped. Um, if. It means that that one person who’s in that center of that ripple, um, chooses to live another day and, and

D Paul Fleming: let me, let me jump in that ripple. When I, when I wrote this book, okay, I got a call from somebody I served with. I hadn’t seen him in 30 years, okay. We go out, we sit down, we’re having a lunch, right. We’re five, ten minutes into conversation. He says, hey, I read your book, you know, I’m sorry about that.

I’m like, okay, thank you. He says, but I got to tell you, I was all set to kill myself until I read your book. Now I’m not gonna, okay. Okay, now, I never, I never saw that coming, all right. Now it’s emotional to hear it, but [00:44:00] that pebble that book helped him, who else has it helped? I don’t know, but it instantaneously took the edge off of telling my story, just because I know that it helped one veteran.

All right, again, I won’t, I won’t know the magnitude of it. I don’t care to know, honestly, but when you help that one person, you have no idea how far that ring can grow.

Scott DeLuzio: That’s true. And I, I get messages like that from people from time to time. I’m just saying, uh, like, you know, even something as simple as. Hey man, I really needed to hear that episode. Um, you know, whatever that discussion was, I really needed to hear it. And sometimes it’s on social media or something like that, where they, they put that out there and maybe they don’t want to necessarily come out and say as much detail as what your, your friend there said.

But, um, but you gotta, you gotta think to yourself like, [00:45:00] okay, what if they hadn’t heard that when they say I needed to hear that? Well, what if they hadn’t? What, What would the effect have been on that person? It couldn’t have been a good thing. Um, and so, you know, that’s why I keep doing this. Um, you know, I, I keep putting episodes like this out to help those people.

Um, and Even like I said, even if it’s one person for each episode that I put out, this is 400 and who knows, 400 something like, okay, so there’s 400 some odd people that I’ve, I’ve helped with episodes like this, you know? And so, yeah, I’m going to keep doing it. Um, you know, as, as long as I, as long as that number is not zero, uh, as long as that, you know, um, the, the number of people who are taking their lives is not zero.

I’m going to keep doing it. Um, and until, until. Until I can’t do it anymore, you know, um, but I think other people in the veteran community want to do stuff. Maybe they just don’t know what to do. Are there other things outside of [00:46:00] maybe writing a book or hosting a podcast, uh, that, that people can do to kind of take charge in, uh, combating the issue of veteran suicide?

D Paul Fleming: Three words, I need help. That’s the biggest thing. I’m one of the biggest things I’m trying to get fellow vets to do. Don Don’s book really talks about how he isolated himself and walks us down that journey. I never realized how, how pandemic it was that we isolate ourselves in veterans. As veterans until I really got into the conversation with him.

But if you look at, um, the group of folks like at Hero Stock and what they’re doing with, uh, with veterans, music and bands and such, I had the honor of being in Rolla, Missouri here a couple of weeks back or a week back now. There’s another one coming up in Tennessean and Nebraska. But all of these things that the veteran groups are doing out there, plug into one of them, plug into a car show, plug into, you know, the [00:47:00] Wednesday coffeehouse meetings, plug into something so that you don’t isolate yourself, or you don’t further isolate yourself, Or, take a step out of your isolation and come to a veterans event.

If you need somebody to go with, reach out to me. Send me an email. Give me a call. Find another vet. Pick up the phone and talk to a friend, a fellow service member, and ask for help. I met with another great group. Who their sole mission with 230, 240, 000 volunteers is to go for a walk with a veteran, do whatever they can to help veterans get out of their isolation and have some activity going on.

Scott DeLuzio: You know, I just mentioned, I’d done over 400 episodes on this show and I, I talked to veterans. All the time. And a lot of times, like you and I, before we got on this, uh, this call and we started talking to each other, we didn’t know each other really, uh, before today. But a lot of times [00:48:00] after just talking to somebody for five, 10 minutes, you start to feel like you start to understand.

Start to connect with that person. You know, if you can deal with five minutes of being a little bit uncomfortable and you’ll be able, you’ll be able to form bonds and connections with people that, that could last for years and years to come. Um, if, if you can just get out of your own way for five minutes, I mean, um, you know, and I know there’s, there’s veteran groups that do outdoor, uh, activities, they do, um, They do all sorts of activities, um, you know, hobbies, um, you name it, they’ll, there are veteran groups out there that, that do those types of things.

If you can find them, Something. I mean, go to Google, that’s going to be your best friend in this case. If you don’t know where to look, go to Google and just type in, um, [00:49:00] veterans fill in the blank of whatever the activity is that you’re into, you know, whatever, and the location that you’re in. Um, there’s going to be something, um, you know, maybe not in your, Immediately in your city, but within the, the close enough vicinity, you’ll find something.

Um, and just go and try it out. Like what, what’s the worst you got to lose? Maybe an afternoon of man, this wasn’t for me. Okay, well try something else, you know?

D Paul Fleming: With another vet, by the way,

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, that’s what I mean. Like, even if you, even if you don’t know, uh, anybody else in your area, maybe you’re, you’re in that, that isolation where you’re, you’re just so tuned out from everybody who’s around you, um, find these These groups that are around you and that, that have other veterans there and just go get involved with it.

[00:50:00] Um, and, and give it a shot.

D Paul Fleming: Yeah. Yeah. And again, one of the things that far too many of us as veterans have suffered with and that’s loss and lack of trusting, right? I can’t trust the VA, right? I don’t care. I don’t care if they fired everybody there and started over. I still wouldn’t trust them. And I, and I really have a hard, hard time trusting people that are not veterans.

Scott DeLuzio: right.

D Paul Fleming: naturally are more open around, you know, dare I say it, our own kind, right? Veterans, right? Look, you can stand there for 10 minutes, five minutes around a group of veterans and nobody’s talking. You know, and sometimes it just doesn’t matter. We’ve stood in those parade formations around veterans, right?

Somebody’s going to crack a joke, somebody’s going to say something, the ice is going to break, and then all the good stuff’s gonna, gonna kind of come forward. So again, veterans concerts or veterans church socials or outreaches, you know, just another great way to [00:51:00] connect.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. There’s someone I had on the show, uh, a few months ago. Um, I forget exactly when it was now off the top of my head, but, um, talking about getting, uh, veteran groups set up in churches around the country and, and You got to know that there’s other veterans who go to church with, with you, if you, if that’s your, your thing and you’re, you’re into going to churches, there’s going to be other veterans there.

I’m pretty sure. And so, um, yeah, why not get, get a veterans group together where you guys can meet and be yourselves for a bit, you know, and, and talk about, um, you know, the things that are of interest to you, you know, with regards to your faith and, you know, things like that. Those are,

D Paul Fleming: Nobody prays better than a veteran, Scott. Nobody knows how to pray better than a veteran, right? Day One at Bootcamp teaches that. Oh Lord, what’d I get into? Oh Lord, what’d I get into? Right?

Scott DeLuzio: Lord, help me now.

D Paul Fleming: going, Oh Lord, hurry it up. I’m 29 and a wake [00:52:00] up.

Scott DeLuzio: Right, right. Yeah, exactly,

D Paul Fleming: we know how to pray.

Scott DeLuzio: Um, I know, I know we could, we could probably keep going for, uh, hours talking about this stuff. Um, it’s really, I think, an important topic here to, to talk about. Uh, and I, I want to make sure that the listeners Knower to find you in the stuff that you do. Uh, can you give, give listeners, um, you know, uh, any websites, social media and other places that they can go to find your work and the things that you do?

D Paul Fleming: Yeah, sure. Again, thank you for having me on your show, Scott. But if you want to reach out to me, uh, dpaulfleming. com. My author name is D Paul Fleming. If you go to Amazon, you can find my books, A Date with Suicide, 2442 Steps to Crazy. If you want to reach out to me, I’m on social media, on Facebook at D Paul Fleming.

I’m also on Twitter on DePaul Fleming and my fun website is Veterans Wellness on Twitter or X. I don’t want [00:53:00] to annoy the, uh, the anointed one, right? But um, uh, send me an email if you need someone to talk to, if you can’t find somebody, if you’re having trouble, if you’re, if you’re stuck, you need to find a way to get plugged into the VA.

I know how to help you move forward in those things, but you know, survive the day and let’s talk again tomorrow.

Scott DeLuzio: Absolutely. And I’ll have links to all of that in the show notes. Uh, so that, that, that works. The listeners can click through and take a look at what you have going on and get in touch and in contact with you. If they want to chat about anything or find out more about your work. Um, before we wrap this episode up though, real quick, uh, I love doing this segment whenever I have another veteran on the show, uh, it’s a segment I call Is it service connected?

Um, and it’s basically just watching a, kind of a funny video of service members doing things that are kind of stupid, oftentimes machinery and things like that are involved and people, uh, run away. Screaming, [00:54:00] you know, that type of thing. It’s, it’s kind of an America’s funniest videos, uh, type of moment where, where funny things happen and then we can laugh about it and make fun of them and all that kind of stuff.

The way, the way I think only veterans can, uh, you know, in, in this kind of situation, so I’m going to share my screen with you real quick here so we can take a look at this and. Um, for the listeners who are, uh, you know, audio only listeners, I’ll try to describe it as best I can, but your best bet go on YouTube or wherever else you can find this video and, uh, and check it out there.

Um, right now it looks like there’s a crane that’s. Lifting up a tank, uh, of some sort. Video’s a little bit grainy, so I can’t tell exact details. I wasn’t much into the tanks anyways, but, uh, let’s take a look and see, see what happens here. So it looks like it’s swinging it around. There’s a couple of people on the ground.

Walking, kind of guiding, looks like, um, [00:55:00] whatever’s going on with this tank, they’re swinging it around to the left side of the truck, uh, that, that the crane’s on. Um, so far, nothing spectacular is happening until the truck starts tipping. And the whole truck with the crane and everything tips over down a hill and there goes the tank.

I’m hoping that there was nobody on the ground in the way of that tank. Cause I don’t know that they’re getting out of the way. That was a pretty, pretty damn big tank. Um, but hopefully, hopefully everybody got out of the way, uh, with that. But, um, yeah, that tank just went, went down and, uh, The crane went along with it.

Um, everything’s still attached, I guess. So, um, that was not well executed. I don’t think they, they thought about the, the load balancing on that when they started lifting that. Um, but, um, [00:56:00] Anyways, that was, that was definitely a fail on their, their part. Um, um, anyways, thank you, uh, Doug again for taking the time to come on the show, sharing your story and resources that you, uh, that you shared with us today.

And, uh, again, for the listeners, everything will be in the show notes that we talked about. Uh, we’ll have all those links there so you can check it out, uh, if you need it. So thank you again, Doug, for taking the time to come on.

D Paul Fleming: Appreciate being on. Thanks so much, Scott. I appreciate it.

Scott DeLuzio: Thanks for listening to the Drive On Podcast. If you want to support the show, please check out Scott’s book, Surviving Son on Amazon. All of the sales from that book go directly back into this podcast and work to help veterans in need. You can also follow the Drive On Podcast on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube, and wherever you listen to podcasts.