Episode 423 Les Carroll Bringing the Fallen Home Transcript

This transcript is from episode 423 with guest Les Carroll.

Scott DeLuzio: [00:00:00] Thanks for tuning in to the Drive On Podcast where we are focused on giving hope and strength to the entire military community. Whether you’re a veteran, active duty, guard, reserve, or a family member, this podcast will share inspirational stories and resources that are useful to you. I’m your host, Scott DeLuzio, and now let’s get on with the show.

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Drive On. I’m your host, Scott DeLuzio. And today, my guest is retired Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Les Carroll. Les is an award winning military journalist, an acclaimed documentary filmmaker, and author of the novel, This Troubled Ground. Uh, his work is based on his deployments to Afghanistan and his time at Dover Air Force Base where he supported the return of over a hundred fallen service members.

And today we’ll discuss his experiences, his novel and his documentary film, Bringing the Fallen Home. [00:01:00] Um, Les, uh, welcome to the show. I’m really glad to have you here.

Les Carroll: Thank you, Scott. Thanks for having me. It’s an honor.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. Um, as I talked about in the intro, um, talked about. All the work that you’ve, you’ve done, um, and one thing that is particularly near and dear to me is your work at Dover Air Force Base. As I think, you know, my, uh, brother was killed in action in Afghanistan. He came through Dover Air Force Base and all the, the men and women, all the work that they do down there to, um, you know, support the fallen service members who, who are coming back home through there, um, is, it just means a lot to.

People like me, uh, me, my family, and, and others out there who, uh, have lost a, a, a family member, uh, in their service to our country. So thank you for the work that you’ve done, uh, down there. Um, can you tell us a little bit about your background kind, [00:02:00] um, a little in the, the military, uh, service and, you know, kind of what, what got you to, uh, what got you to where you are now?

Les Carroll: Yeah, sure. No problem. Um, I, uh, I joined the Air Force in 1985. I went to the old Air Force, uh, officer training school at the Medina Annex of Lackland Air Force Base, served four years, about four years in the, on active duty, and then, and then, uh, joined the Air National Guard here in South Carolina. Um, the base was, um, was about a mile from where I grew up in my teen years, and I used to sit out on my You know, on the hood of the car on a Sunday afternoon and watch the jets fly over on their drill weekend.

I never, you know, I never imagined that I would be, you know, I swear I would work or I would be affiliated with the, with the unit as a, you know, as a youngster. I wasn’t, um, thinking about a military career, but, you know, after, after college and after I started working a little bit, I, I then joined the Air Force [00:03:00] and, and then ended up right at that base eventually.

But, uh, yeah, I served there, uh, back. 1989 through, you know, things were peacetime and then all of a sudden 1990, the invasion of Kuwait and, and our unit was, was heavily involved in Desert Shield, Desert Storm. Our unit was heavily involved in all the no fly zone enforcement throughout the 90s and really leading up to 9 11 and then it, it.

You know, obviously when 9 11 happened, everything changed for everybody. And, and the last, you know, 12, 13 years of my career, my unit was, was very involved with, uh, with pretty much everything going on in the Middle East. It’s an F 16 unit, uh, highly, you know, highly, uh, thought of unit. Very experienced unit, just full of, uh, really experienced pilots and maintainers and people that, a lot of which had come out of the Air Force and then, [00:04:00] you know, joined the Air National Guard.

Some of which had grown up just like me, right in the backyard of the base and had, you know, graduated high school and joined the unit and had been there ever since. Um, like, you know, I ended up running into people that I had gone to middle school and high school with that I didn’t expect to see, you know, again, but ended up serving with them right there in the unit.

Um, So yeah, that’s, you know, that’s, that’s the early part of my career.

Scott DeLuzio: Sure. And so your book, I think I mentioned in the intro, this Trouble Ground is, uh, based on your experiences at Dover. Is that correct? And, and, and in Afghanistan, um,

Les Carroll: sorry. I’ll go ahead. I can, you know, I can go ahead and push ahead to that. I, I wrote in the, I wrote in the epilogue that, you know, up until my first Afghanistan deployment, I’d had a, a good career but not a remarkable career. I had not deployed with my unit, um, for various reasons. I think as I started moving up and rank it, [00:05:00] I was not deployed with active duty.

Public affairs officers, executive officers that were lower ranked to me. And so, and so I did never, you know, deploy with my unit. I, I went to many, many homecomings and returns and, and, um, you know, saw, you know, saw the pride and everything of, of people that I knew coming back. And, and, um, I was actually in early 2008, I was in, um, Uh, I was at Fort Bragg, uh, just up there for a few days.

We had some units coming back and, um, I was up there with a guy named Craig Melvin, who is very, uh, you know, well known in the media now as one of the hosts of NBC Today Show, but Craig and I are from the same hometown. And, um, So he was at the local NBC affiliate at the time as one of their senior reporters before he moved on to the national, to the national network. But we were up at Fort Bragg waiting for a unit to come home. [00:06:00] And a lot of people were telling me, thank you for your service.

I think we were, we were eating at a local fast food restaurant. People were coming up to me telling me, thank you for my service. And I kind of felt kind of guilty because I was there waiting for people who had just finished a nine or 12 month deployment away from their families. And, and I didn’t. Sort of feel deserving of those accolades.

And I think I might’ve said to him at the time, you know, I probably ought to do that too, or I probably ought to volunteer. I don’t remember, but shortly thereafter I, I volunteered and, and so I got the first, uh, deployment, uh, assignment to Afghanistan to the, um, headquarters of the International Security Assistance Force working on the public affairs staff there.

So that was at the end of 2008 when I left it for Afghanistan for my first deployment.

Scott DeLuzio: You know, I, I hear that same kind of sentiment from a lot of people who maybe they’ve gone their whole career, haven’t deployed, um, and they, they feel kind [00:07:00] of guilty when someone thanks them for their service or they, they have some. Kind of feelings about that. That’s not like a, uh, they’re not filled with pride about the service.

Uh, let’s put it that way. Um, and I always, I always say to people like you, you signed up, um, you, you volunteered, you know, it was a all volunteer force at the time. You know, there’s, there’s no draft or anything like that. So you volunteered to serve your country and you did what your country asked you to do.

And, um, there’s a lot of people that need to be. Here at home, holding on the fort, if you will, um, in order for people to go overseas to do the thing that they did. And so everybody got, has to work together. Otherwise the whole thing falls apart. So, um, you know, for the folks out there who might be listening, who might have that similar feeling, um, and even for yourself, like I, as someone who deployed, like I, [00:08:00] I don’t feel that way.

Like I, I look at everybody like you. If you guys weren’t back home doing the things that you were doing, I may not be able to do the things that I was doing overseas. And so like it all works together. So, you know, don’t. Don’t feel bad that you didn’t deploy for those folks, you know?

Les Carroll: Yeah. And I understand. And if I had never deployed, um, I, I still would have felt like I had a good career and I would have been very supportive of all the people who did. And that’s what, that was my role up until the time I deployed myself was I was a support guy and I was back home.

I mean, as a public affairs officer for the wing, I was answering all the local media questions, national media, what, you know, um, and, and, you know, I was doing the best I could to, to, um, highlight the achievements of my unit, which was exactly my job. I just got to the point where at some point I didn’t want my career to end without.

Experiencing, experiencing, experiencing what a lot of my, you know, colleagues were [00:09:00] and friends were going through. And I wanted to go through that too. I didn’t expect to end up doing three deployments, two to Afghanistan and one to Dover. But after I returned from Afghanistan and I was back home doing, you know, day to day National Guard public affairs work, I just felt like I still needed to get out there and I, I was in an office that had, um, Plenty of experience, a lot of, you know, a lot of, not a lot of people, but enough people to do the job.

Um, I was a Lieutenant Colonel, my boss was a Colonel. He said, you know, whatever you want to do, I’ll support it. And so that’s when, you know, six months after getting back to Afghanistan, I got the chance to go to Dover, uh, to the Air Force mortuary and served there. Um,

Scott DeLuzio: like I was mentioning for folks like me and, uh, countless other families that are out there who have, um, lost a loved one in, in service to the country. Um, That it’s important to knowing that there are [00:10:00] people there who are taking care of our loved ones on their return home and they’re, they’re being treated with the utmost respect.

And, um, you know, I, I’ve since looked into, you know, what happens when somebody comes through Dover and it’s, Well, orchestrated, let’s just put it that way. It’s very well orchestrated and they do a phenomenal job, um, taking care of our, our fallen, uh, service members. Um, can you tell us a little bit about that, that time that you, you were at Dover and, and kind of what your, your role was there and, and what kind of impact that had on you?

Les Carroll: yeah, obviously it had a tremendous impact, a life, uh, life changing impact, so in 2009, President Obama had made the decision to allow media to cover the dignified transfer with the family’s approval. So that, um, initiated a responsibility or an opportunity for [00:11:00] people like me, National Guard Public Affairs Officers, to go serve there. I believe the thinking was they didn’t want to Use the base public affairs team.

They want to just keep them in place doing what they were doing. So, uh, the air force began to send a series of national guard, air national guard, public affairs officers to Dover, support that mission. So I was about the third or fourth one, I think, um, That went there as, as the, the chief or as the, as the head PAO there, uh, we had a, we had a five or six person staff as well, but, so I went there and I went there in, uh, beginning of November, uh, 2009, and, uh, President Obama had actually just been there recently because, uh, Some of the first, you know, some of the first, uh, um, of the Fallen had come through Dover with media coverage.

And so he had been there pretty much, you know, within a few [00:12:00] weeks from when I got there, or a few weeks earlier than I got there, but I got there in November, 2009. And it was, you know, it’s during the height of some pretty big fighting in Afghanistan and, um, in, uh, in Iraq. And so we were pretty busy, you know, we, Pretty much almost every day we had a dignified transfer. Sometimes we’d go a few days without one. Sometimes we’d have several. So I was there about a hundred days and did about a hundred of them. So, um, it came out to be about one a day. And so what we would do is we would set up a media area and a family area on the ramp ahead of the arrival of the aircraft.

The aircraft came in, we would bring the family. Uh, to the ramp, we bring the media to the ramp and have the dignified transfer. And my job was just to basically make sure that the media stayed within their lane and, and not try to approach the family. The family members had their [00:13:00] own, you know, had their own escorts.

We had seasoned, uh, police officers. Funeral directors, uh, NCOs, chaplains assistants, chaplains, people like that. They were always there with the families. So my role was, was with the media, but as it turned out, I ended up being between the media and the families all the time. So I sort of was a buffer between the family members and the media.

And so I, uh, did that about a hundred times, including seven, uh, CIA officers that were killed in Afghanistan that came back. We didn’t get any public media coverage of that, but I was there on the ground for that as well. Kind of doing the same role, setting up for the family, helping the internal media get set up, you know, to, to cover that as well.

Scott DeLuzio: Sure. You know, when people may not realize, um, kind of what happens when there is a fallen service [00:14:00] member. Um, and as far as like the media coverage goes, uh, I remember when I came, uh, back from Afghanistan, uh, after my brother was killed, I, I was home probably two days after he was killed. Um, and we were driving from the airport, uh, down my parents street and their street was lined with news vans from.

Every television, local television, newspaper, radio station, you name it, they were there and everybody wanted something from us. They wanted just a little, little soundbite, a photo of, you know, video, whatever, whatever they could use to put it on the nightly news or on, you know, whatever the broadcast was that they were doing.

And I remember being so angry Driving down the street and seeing these people and thinking to myself, these people are like vultures. Like how, how could they be so insensitive that like now of all times that they’re just clamoring over all this, but the public affairs [00:15:00] officer that was assigned to our family during this time, um, He said to us, look, they’re going to run the story one way or the other, whether we talk to them or not.

And he said, it’s completely within your right to not talk to them. You don’t have to. And, and I was like, okay, good, then I’m not, you know, but

Les Carroll: what I, that’s exactly the advice I would have given.

Scott DeLuzio: yeah, but, but he said, but just keep in mind that the story will run and it’ll be, it’ll be in the news and then tomorrow it’ll be forgotten. And, um, and then I said.

I was thinking about it and I was like, and my, my, my parents were thinking about it as well, and we’re like, you know what? My, my brother deserved more

Les Carroll: We don’t want it to be forgotten. We want it to

Scott DeLuzio: we don’t want him to be forgotten. We want that story to be told, and we don’t want it to be told, like, having them go interview somebody in the grocery store parking lot, like, oh, what do you think about this local soldier who was killed?

And of course they’re gonna say, oh, it’s sad. And, you know, whatever. [00:16:00] Well, that’s so generic. Like not memorable at all. And I was like, well, that was, that was not the kind of send off I want for my brother. You know, like he, he deserved a hell of a lot more than that. So

Les Carroll: Somebody might have said, somebody, sorry to interrupt you, somebody might have said, Hey, you shouldn’t have been there in the first place, or something negative like

Scott DeLuzio: sure. Yeah. And you might’ve gotten some, some other crap like that. Yeah.

Les Carroll: fine. Your family feelings that he died for something and that, you know, that he was there for a reason.

So that’s the kind of response you could get. I, sorry to interrupt you, but I’ve just got to add, add this, um,

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Les Carroll: insert this, you don’t, the media certainly can be annoying, but you certainly don’t want your loved one forgotten. And that’s how they’re not forgotten because, you know, from the media coverage, then you get, then you get people who want to honor them and want Do things, you know, who wanna do things on the anniversaries and, and wanna do things to raise [00:17:00] money for gold star families or whatever, you know, whatever the case may be.

One, the one thing of, of all the, of all the Gold Star families I interviewed during the production of bringing the fallen home, they all said. We just don’t want our loved one to be forgotten I can tell you they’re not forgotten here in South Carolina and any other places where I’ve been and interviewed people.

Um, they have roads and bridges and named after them and they have, you know, uh, 5k runs. You know, and sometimes it is to raise money, but it’s always for a cause that you know is going to going to be a good cause. So, um, yeah, that, that annoyance that you get from the media can also be a very positive thing if, if you want to make sure that your loved one is not forgotten.

Scott DeLuzio: You know, uh, when I was in Afghanistan, uh, I was with an infantry unit and one of the things that we were, we were taught, uh, kind of pre deployment going [00:18:00] over there is like, if any media is around, uh, and they’re asking you questions, just, You know, uh, go, go ask our, you know, the public affairs officer, go, go talk to that person.

That’s the person you need to talk to. No comment from me. That type of thing was what we got. And it was basically ingrained in our heads like the media is the devil, like that, like don’t talk to them at all, at all costs. And I think I still had that mentality when I was driving down my parents street, going, going to their house.

And I see these people, I’m like the devil is everywhere. What the hell is going on? You know? Um, yeah.

Les Carroll: mistake to feel that way about the media because the actual DoD policy basically says, and I don’t spend a long time, but says something like full, you know, as much disclosure as you can without, you know, without a compromising security of personal privacy and everything, but the DoD policy is to Provide as much information as you can, as you can provide.

Now, that’s more for [00:19:00] operational things than it is for something like this, but you know, the, the, the thinking still is that we need to provide as much information as possible. Um, and I mean if, I think, uh, with the, with the production of Bringing the Fallen Home, our documentary, and then with my book, uh, This Troubled Ground, I think I’ve probably told uh, Uh, that story in more detail than anybody, as far as what goes on at Dover, uh, how, how you feel, you know, standing on that ramp.

I don’t know if that’s been, that’s been covered. One, one reason is we had a non, we had to sign a non disclosure agreement at Dover. And so when I got ready to write the book, I was reading it and trying to figure out, you know, what I could say. And I mean, I went right to the edge of it because I wanted to tell everything I could tell about the story.

Um, so I, I did it with a lot of detail. Um, the, uh, Bring the Fallen Home went through DOD, uh, approval because we got, you know, we got direct [00:20:00] support, um, to, to go there and do, and interview people and go to the bases and everything. Of course, you know, the DOD didn’t have anything to do, do with the people we interviewed with the families and stuff, but then we went to Dover, we went to different bases and, and stuff.

And that, so we did have to go through that approval process. Um, but, but even then, I think they, they allowed us to tell the story about as closely as you can tell it without getting too much into people’s privacy.

Scott DeLuzio: Sure, sure, and obviously you don’t want to get, you know, into that if, if those folks are not. Well, for that type of thing, um, but I, I did want to talk to you a little bit about the, the documentary, Bringing the Fallen Home, um, tell us about, oh, go ahead.

Les Carroll: I, I, I wanna, I wanna say that I, I wish that it had been my complete original idea, but, um, when I was there, um, at Dover, a couple people [00:21:00] called me up, one of them was a videographer and, and another guy was an artist, and he wanted to come there and, and he wanted to do paintings and stuff.

So he wanted to come and just get a good look at everything and, and, you know, see as much as he could see because he was interested in doing portraits and paintings of, of, uh, those procedures and everything. And then while he was there, I think he, one of us said, like, you know, this would also be a pretty good documentary.

And, um, and, and. I had a friend back home that who was a producer and that we had done some stuff together, I called him up and I go, Hey, we got my, have us a really good documentary here. And I actually called that gentleman, Steve, that had come and I said, do you mind if we, if I pursue this when I get back?

And he said, no, that’s fine. You know, you can do it. I mean, I’m, I’m doing something kind of different than just doing your standard documentary. So. So I got home, got out, I didn’t do it for several years because I went to Afghanistan a second time, [00:22:00] retired, but about four years after I had, had left over, we, uh, we were able to get Bringing the Fallen Home produced and finished and distributed nationwide through PBS.

Scott DeLuzio: And that’s, that’s awesome that you were able to get this documentary, um, Put together, really, because, uh, there’s so many people who don’t know what happens. Like we know, okay, we know people die in combat. We hear about it all the time. Um, how, how do we get those people home? And, and what, what’s there, there is a process.

It’s not like they just toss them on a plane and drop them off in someone’s backyard. It’s like. They, they go through a procedure and it’s, it’s a pretty regimented thing. And it, they make sure that everything is done, uh, you know, by the book and everything is [00:23:00] taken care of, uh, with the utmost respect of the fallen and the families and, and making sure all the, their wishes are, are being, um, you know, taken into consideration.

And, um, you know, when, when that person comes home, um, You know, you’ve, you’ve documented this now, and now, now there’s folks out there who previously probably had no idea that they may not have even known that Dover Air Force Base was a thing, like a place, you know, in the world, um, and now they know about it and they know what goes on. Um, at the air force base as, as these people are coming home. Um, and,

Les Carroll: Thankfully, we don’t have to do it near as much now as we did during those years when I was there. But the procedure or the process kept getting better and better. Um, you know, at first, you know, when they’d allow media, they weren’t sure where to put them exactly, or, [00:24:00] you know, and families would come in and they would just sit in hotels.

Waiting, you know, waiting for the aircraft to get there. Uh, a lot of stuff happened while I was there. Just the four months I was there, there were, there were a lot of, uh, improvements. Like we, um, we, uh, took a, took a building, a building and, and renovated it and made it into a place called the Center for Families of the Fallen.

And it was where we would take the families. And they would wait there until the aircraft landed with their loved ones remains rather than sit in a hotel. Um, they would just go, and that was just for like the last couple hours. It would allow us to get them on the base. Chaplains would be there. People would be there to support and it’d just be, you know, snacks and sodas and, and coffee and different things.

And that’s where they would wait. And it was a very beautiful facility. Had really nice furniture, nice furnishings. And it was right there. You know, five minutes from the ramp. Um, and also while we were there, in fact, [00:25:00] just, just, uh, I don’t want to get political in any way, but Dr. Jill Biden, when she was the second lady, she attended that and I actually met her, um, during, during that, uh, time.

She came and visited representing, you know, representing the. administration, uh, and, and attended that dedication of that, of that facility. And I believe while I was there, or shortly thereafter, they broke ground for, on a Fisher house. Um, for people that don’t know a Fisher, Fisher houses are. Facilities that are built on or near military installations for families that come in and stay there when their loved ones are, uh, injured or something.

A lot of them are around Walter Reed and places like that, the hospitals. But, um, they built a Fisher house on Dover and it’s, you know, it’s like a little hotel or apartment. It’s just a nice building. It’s got different bedrooms. You know, private [00:26:00] facilities for families, common areas. And again, and that’s where the families should come and stay a few nights if they needed to, instead of staying at a hotel close by.

And that’s also on the base. And we, that was built when we did the documentary. So we were able to feature that Fisher house in the documentary as well. And, and, and talk to people about how. You know, despite going through the worst moments of their lives, how comfortable they were able to feel when they got to that Fisher house and rested, you know, were able to rest a day or two before going to the ramp and that.

And so those, those facilities are in place and they’re there when needed. And, and hopefully they won’t be needed very often, but, but when they’re, you know, when they’re needed, those facilities are still there.

Scott DeLuzio: yeah, and that’s great. And one, one of the things that I noticed through my experience is that, um, anybody from the military who came [00:27:00] to support our family, um, They were phenomenal. They took their job seriously. They made sure that the family didn’t have to worry about things that unnecessarily. They took care of so much stuff for us.

Um, they, you know, there’s forms and paperwork and all this kind of stuff, which Without the support from the military to kind of guide us through that, we’d have no idea what to do in order, you know, even for something as simple as getting a, you know, a grave marker in the cemetery for my brother. Like there’s this paperwork and all that kind of stuff, you know, um, And they, they just, here it is, here’s the papers, just put your signature here, and we already checked the boxes that you wanted, and you know, everything’s done for you, and you don’t have to really think about this stuff too much, just really just sign the paper, and that’s it, um, and so, [00:28:00] uh, you know, I have no doubt that Uh, the, the military, the Fisher house, you know, all of the people who were involved down there at Dover did their best to make sure

Les Carroll: that, by the way? I knew you’d lost your brother, but

Scott DeLuzio: yeah, it was, uh, August of 2010.

So it was shortly after you left there.

Les Carroll: Yeah, I, I remember, I remember us talking about that. I, that it was after. So, so, so there, there, the, the Center for Families, the Fallen would’ve been built, the Fisher House would not have been built by then, but um, that was during a time when there were many changes and improvements and modification to all the procedures.

It was just continuing to get better and better, I think at that time.

Scott DeLuzio: Well, and one of the things, like, as you were saying, how there was a lot of changes, a lot of improvements that were taking place. Um, one of the things that struck me was that if. Somebody just didn’t give a damn. They don’t, they don’t really care about their job. They’re not working on [00:29:00] making things better.

They’re not, they’re not looking to how do we make things better for these families? You know, if they really didn’t care, you know, so those people cared,

Les Carroll: you know, the job at the mortuary isn’t for everybody. I mean, there’s a lot of great people in the military and the Air Force and all the services were represented there because, because all the services have, you know, people that are lost, people that are lost in combat. So there were, you know, there were Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines there.

Um, It’s primarily run by the Air Force. It is run by the Air Force on the Air Force base, but there’s people from all services. But yeah, you don’t, you don’t serve there if you just don’t have the personality or the attitude. I mean, you know, you can’t serve there if you have a negative attitude or if you just don’t have a, if you don’t have a friendly, caring personality, and not everybody does.

But yeah, those people that serve there, everybody had to Had to really have that caring, compassionate, [00:30:00] selfless attitude to serve there. And that’s, um, I’m a, can I transition a little bit? I mean,

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, yeah, please.

Les Carroll: to talk about the book. Um, so, so as I’m on the ramp at Dover and, you know, especially like when the CIA officers came back, you know, I’m on the ramp and I’m thinking like, how did I get here?

You know, what, you know, here I am at this historic. You know, horrible, but historic event. Uh, Leon Panetta standing, you know, 10 feet away from me. He, he at the time was the CIA director. Later, the. Um, you know, he’s standing right beside me and I’m thinking, I wish my family could see this and friends, you know, could see what, you know, these amazing experiences I’m having, they wouldn’t, you know, they wouldn’t believe that, you know, bonehead like me from the country, you know, from countryside of South Carolina would end up in these, in these places and I felt that [00:31:00] way at Afghanistan too and, and, um, if you remember that scene in, in the movie, Saving Private Ryan, where, um, The, the Tom Hanks character says, you know, how will I ever tell my wife about days like today?

You know, if I ever get home to her, I kind of thought that I, I, um, I wasn’t in combat like he was, so it wasn’t, I was pretty sure I was going to get home. But, um, you know, I was just like, how will I ever tell my family about these experiences? And that’s when I thought, you know, I’m a writer. I should be able to tell them about it.

I should be able to figure out how to put these experiences in words. Um, so for a long time, I didn’t know if I was going to write a memoir, I was going to write a novel, but I kind of had a fictional story idea that, that happened. Or that came out of an experience on the ramp at Dover that gave me an idea for a fictional story.

So I thought, well, I want to put, I want to use that too. And even though it’s fiction, it will tell a lot about the people that I want to write about and the event. So that’s kind of [00:32:00] how it ended up being sort of a more of an autobiographical novel is because there is, there are some fictional stories in there.

But, um, so that’s how this troubled ground came about. I went back to Afghanistan a second time. Um, had the same memorable experiences, met people that you never thought you’d meet, did things I never thought I would do. And as a public affairs officer, I didn’t, you know, I couldn’t write, you know, I tell people when I do talks, I’m not the American sniper, I’m not the lone survivor, you know, I’m not these people that risk their lives every moment they were in country, um, I was a public affairs officer.

And I saw and did different things than the infantry soldier or the marine sniper or the Navy SEAL. Um, but I, you know, I had a different, different type of story to tell, but it still was a story to, to tell about people who serve and people who, uh, families who lose people and, [00:33:00] And, you know, get left behind.

So, um, you know, I had a different story to tell and that’s how my novel, This Troubled Ground, came about.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And one of the things I’ve, I’ve told other people, uh, along the way throughout. You know, this whole podcast that I’ve been doing for the last five ish years now, um, I, I think everybody has a story, uh, no matter what your job was, like you said, whether you’re a Navy SEAL or infantryman or sniper, or, you know, someone boots on the ground or, or you’re a cook or a mechanic or, uh, you know, aviation specialist, or I don’t know, whatever your job happened to be, public affairs, even, um, you know, Everybody has a story and all those stories deserve to be told, um, because it helps piece together from everybody’s different perspectives, what went on and [00:34:00] we can learn from those stories and those perspectives and the more of them that we have, the more we can learn.

Um, but as we’re starting to see now with the older generations of World War II and, you know, those generations of folks who are, you know, You know, their numbers are getting smaller. Um, you know, if their stories weren’t told, you know, and, and their day comes, that’s it. Their, their story’s gone. It’s lost to history and, and we don’t have that story.

We don’t, we don’t benefit from the, the story that they could have told. Um, and, uh, You know, I, I wish more stories were told, whether it’s in a book format or a, uh, documentary or some film or

Les Carroll: Yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: way, you know, I wish there were more.

Les Carroll: to keep doing that as much as I can. One of the, one of the great projects is the Library of Congress. Um, I don’t know exactly what it’s called, the Veterans Project, where, where you record [00:35:00] interviews with veterans, they send them to the Library of Congress and they They store them or, you know, keep them there.

So, I’ve participated in that, uh, Library of Congress Veterans Project as well, both as a producer for other people’s stories and also had a chance to tell my own story, which I was reluctant to, to do at first because I didn’t think my story was That interesting myself.

And I thought, you know, you’ve got all these World War II veterans, Vietnam veterans, Korea veterans, combat veterans from Afghanistan and Iraq, and, you know, I’m thinking their stories are way more interesting and way more important to, um, you know, to preserve, but I was asked to do it and, and, and did it myself as well.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, that’s great. Um, I, I’ve heard of that project. Uh, I, I didn’t. Get a chance to participate myself, but, um, you know, I think that’s something too, that, that folks should look into if they have [00:36:00] something, um, that they want to talk about, about their service and, and make sure that it’s preserved for future generations.

Um, and again, I don’t care what your job was or what you did,

Les Carroll: I don’t know exactly what the website is, but, but, but if you look up Library of Congress Veterans Project, Veterans History Project, I’m sure you can find it. It’s been about, it’s been about six or eight years since I recorded some, so I don’t remember all the details. But, um, but I don’t think it’s, you know, I don’t think the government’s specifically doing it.

Individuals are doing it. Um, but there are, you know, there, Television stations are doing it. People are doing it for school projects, high school, college, mostly high school, I think. Um, in the, in the case of the one I did, it was a, it was a local Friends of the Library, um, group that hired a, you know, hired a, um, local videographer to, to record them and edit them.

They’ve got to be 30 minutes long, so it’s a, it’s a, Um, [00:37:00] you know, it’s got to be a pretty good interview. It can’t, you know, it can’t be just like a soundbite from a TV, you know, from a TV story. It’s got to be a minimum 30 minute interview, so, uh, but different, different people can do them. Anybody can do them if they, if they meet the criteria.

I mean, any local, uh, you know, a local freelance videographer could do them himself or herself if they wanted to, to do it and meet the criteria.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, I, I think where I first heard of it was actually from my congressperson. Uh, she, she was at a, like a Veterans Day event or something and, and they, they mentioned it there, like that it was a thing, not that they were. Filming it themselves like the through their office, but that, you know, you can submit this through, you know, the Library of Congress.

So, um, you know, it’s been a couple of years. I still haven’t done anything with it, but not now. Actually, now that you mentioned it, it might be something that I, uh, [00:38:00] you know, look into. And maybe that that’s something I do, uh, you know, I don’t know. Want to participate in, uh, maybe other people out there want to participate in it too.

So I’m going to look for that link, uh, to, to, you know, how, how do you go about doing this? Um, and, and I’ll put it in the show notes, uh, for, for the

Les Carroll: I should do a lot more because I have a lot of interviews with veterans that I haven’t sent that I could because I’ve interviewed a lot of people doing documentaries, um, besides bringing the fallen home, a few others I’ve done, I’ve done documentaries on the history of the South Carolina Air National Guard and the South Carolina Army National Army Guard.

I really was really was South Carolina National Guard, mostly Army, a little bit of Air because we’d already done the Air National Guard, but I’ve got dozens of interviews in the can that could be that could be done. But the few I did were. Specific people that I thought would make for very good stories.

Um, but yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s a great project.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And I, I think the, um, [00:39:00] uh, just going back to. Everybody’s story deserves to be told. Uh, and, and I don’t, again, I don’t care what you did, where you served, how, how long it was, uh, you know, none of that stuff matters. Like your story still deserves to be told. And it, um, you know, in, in a project like this, this was going to be stored and, you know, accessible for years and years to come, probably long after we’re all gone.

Um, the, these, these stories will still be accessible. Um, and. You know, wouldn’t it be great thinking, thinking back right now, if you can go, uh, to some website somewhere and be able to pull up, uh, an interview from, I don’t know, some private who was on the front lines in a world war one or something, and just hear his story, you know,

Les Carroll: these stories are, are accessible. I haven’t done it just because I’ve been busy doing other stuff. But now that, now that I think about it, I mean, I think you can go to the Library of Congress [00:40:00] website and pull these stories. I, I’m, um, as soon as we get done, I’m going to. I’m going to try it and see, because I don’t want to give people bad information, but I think there’s, there’s thousands of these, these stories available to the public.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And that’s, I

Les Carroll: I’m not wrong about that.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, I, I think, I think you’re right. I think that, and I think that’s the whole point of this. I don’t think they’re, they’re recording them just to hoard them and store them. So nobody can see them, you know?

Les Carroll: stop and look it up real quick if you want to do, but

Scott DeLuzio: yeah. No, that’s okay. We’ll, we’ll, we’ll look into it and I’ll, I’ll, I’ll.

Les Carroll: add something, add something about it,

Scott DeLuzio: I’ll put a link in there in the, in the

Les Carroll: or keep my part in there where I said it,

Scott DeLuzio: yeah.

Les Carroll: hoping, hoping that it’s actually true.

Scott DeLuzio: Could you tell us a little bit more about the book before, before we wrap up and, and where people can go to find it and, and, and grab a copy for themselves,

Les Carroll: yeah, like, like I said, um, my book is This Troubled Ground. Um, I just came up with that headline or, I mean, I’m sorry. I came up with that title. Uh, it was actually Blood [00:41:00] on the Ground before, but then that’s, there’s a few books with that title and, and, um, so we wanted to come up with something that wasn’t, you know, something that wasn’t already done several times.

Um, And, uh, this hallowed ground of course has been used. And when I was talking to the publisher, I was going, I don’t know if Afghanistan, I don’t know if I consider hallowed ground. It’s more like troubled ground to me and same with Dover. I mean, Dover is definitely hallowed ground, but there’s a lot of pain there.

You know, there’s a lot of pain there as well. So I just said, what about this troubled ground? And he goes, Ah, yeah, that works. Let’s do this Troubled Ground. So that’s just how we came up with the title. But, um, so I published it, uh, about a year ago. We just, we’re just right on, right on the one year anniversary of the publication.

Um, I’ve done quite a few, uh, visits to American Legion groups, uh, Visited some National Guard Association conferences where, obviously, I was right at home with that, with that audience [00:42:00] and people, you know, a lot of people who appreciated being able to get a personalized signed copy of the book. I’ve tried to go visit as many libraries as I can and do presentations at public libraries.

I’m doing doing more of those, but, um. You know, this Troubled Ground is available, you know, Amazon and, and, you know, all your local, I mean, all your normal online booksellers. If you don’t want to buy it and you want to get it in your library, call up your local library and ask them to, ask them to put it there because it’s in four to five hundred libraries probably across the country, but there are approximately 17, 000 public libraries, uh, branches and.

So it’s still in a pretty small percentage. So, you know, if people want to help get it in their local library, then, then you do the, you know, request a purchase or suggest a purchase, uh, link. And there’s always a, an opportunity for, for, uh, [00:43:00] patrons to request the book. And I mean, I, you know, I like selling them obviously as a, as a writer, but.

I also love it in libraries and I just want people to have a chance to wherever they are in some far off place around the country to be able to go and pick up the book and read it from their local library. Not, you know, not everybody wants to spend 15 or 20, 25 dollars on a book. So, um, you know, that’s what, that’s what libraries are for and that’s why they’re so great.

But, um, yeah, I, I’ve gotten great response from people who have read the book, who really have enjoyed it. Um, I’ve, uh, several people I served with have, have read it, you know, and they’ve said, you know, that you, you, you did pretty good. You hit, you know, you kind of, kind of hit the mark there with what you were trying to do, because, I mean, I wanted to, you know, I wanted to know if I, you know, did I do what.

Not only what I wanted to do, but what did I tell the story the [00:44:00] way that was beneficial to others and, and people that serve there. And so I’m getting good, good response from it. I think it’s an important book for people to read just because it, one, like I said earlier, I think it’ll give you the best.

Best, uh, most detailed description of what the process is like at Dover Air Force Base when people come back, uh, when fallen service members come back. And it’ll also give you a really good idea of what families, you know, how we take care of the families and, and their experiences on the ramp at Dover.

Um, there’s, there’s one, there’s one. Specific part of the book that, that where I, where I really in detail described one particular day, and it was, um, it was a day when we brought back four Marines and it was during the, um, and it was a daytime dignified transfer. Many of them are at night, but this one was during the day, and um, it was cold, it was [00:45:00] windy, and, and during the day you can see everybody’s faces.

You can see all the expressions, you can see all the faces of all the people, and it was, you know, it was a day when, when um, Really, of all the days, it was probably the one I remember the most. And when, and when we were, when we were done, um, and the family was off the ramp, the media were off the ramp, I turned around, my deputy was a, um, big, uh, big guy, like an NFL, you know, like an NFL tight end.

And I looked, and I looked behind him and he had tears just streaming down his face. And he was apologizing, you know, sorry, sir. You know, and I’m going like, sorry for what? For crying, if you don’t cry,

Scott DeLuzio: human.

Les Carroll: you’re not human, you know, just, you know, we got to hold it together during the, during the event while the family’s on the ramp, you know, the media is on the ramp, we’ve got to keep our composure, but, you know, after, you know, You can, you can break down and [00:46:00] cry.

We all have. And, and I did many times. Um, and, and I was probably a little more stoic that day because that was, you know, I’d done almost a hundred of them. And so I was a lot more prepared. He had just gotten there. That was one of his first ones. uh, I was a lot more prepared and that, that day was probably the hardest and most emotional day, just because of some of the things that happened and the reactions of some of the families that, that, and I described that in the book.

I’m not going to give it all away. Now, now, but I described that in the book, some of the reactions of the families and that’s made it one of the hardest days that we had there. I

Scott DeLuzio: Well, we definitely want people to go out and get a copy of the book. So yeah, definitely don’t give too much detail, but you definitely did give a nice little teaser there to, uh, kind of whet the appetite of some of the folks who might want to, uh, learn a little bit more about this and who would be interested in getting, uh, you know, a copy of that book.

Now, one question you, you [00:47:00] brought up, uh, how the, uh, the, the dignified transfers. Typically are at night, but this one happened to be during the day. Is there a reason why they’re typically at night? Do

Les Carroll: don’t think there’s a reason except unless it’s just about the timing of the aircraft leaving. Um, you know, cause if, cause if I’m just, I’m just trying to think of the timing. I mean, the, the, the aircraft. With the remains would most likely have left Ramstein and depending on the timing there, if it’s night or early morning, I don’t, and it wasn’t all, I don’t think, I don’t think, and it wasn’t always the case.

There were some during the day and there were some, you know, 5, 6, 7 o’clock at night too, but there were a lot, you know, late in the evening as well. I just remember that one particular one was, you know, midday on a Saturday. And, you know, it’s a day when you think you could, you know, you might want to be home, you know, watching your favorite college football team or whatever [00:48:00] that was in, that was in around March.

So it would have been, you know, you know, your favorite college basketball team, maybe, but it was middle of the day on a Saturday. You know, all these, these, a lot of family members had come for, you know, four young Marines, uh, had been lost and were coming home and it was cold and windy and, you know, very, you know, bitter, you know, the wind made the cold bitter cold temperature was maybe 30, 35 degrees.

It wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t that cold, but the wind was blowing about 30 miles an hour.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, that, that cuts right through. I, that I, I know, I know the feeling when,

Les Carroll: No, no wind, like a, like an air, like a tarmac wind,

Scott DeLuzio: right. Right. And that’s, that’s a big open area too. So

Les Carroll: big open area.

Scott DeLuzio: in the way. Yeah, exactly. So, um,

Les Carroll: so, yeah, so that’s, so, you know, I know most people have probably seen the clip from Dover, you know, the president [00:49:00] or secretary of defense or congressman or senator, you know, some very senior person going to a dignified transfer and, you know, being there, they’ve seen that 30 second clip, but in my documentary and in my book, it describes it, I think I describe it in more detail than, you know, And people then can go from watching that clip and then they can really get a, get a very, very good description of what actually happens.

Scott DeLuzio: yeah, so definitely for the listeners, go, go check it out. Uh, check out the book, check out the documentary. Um, you know, if you haven’t seen or read them already, definitely go, go give them a look and, um, and learn a little bit about what’s going on. know, kind of the, the tail end of things, uh, you know, where, where people are coming, coming back home from overseas and, and how they are treated, uh, you know, what, what, uh, you know, goes on with the fallen, but also with the families,

Les Carroll: [00:50:00] Families, not just the way we treat the fallen, but

Scott DeLuzio: yeah,

Les Carroll: know, it’s the family. I mean, that, you know, that, that, uh, we’re going to take care of the fallen regardless, but, but a lot of the stuff at Dover. is to make sure you do everything you can to ease that excruciating pain of the family members. And a lot of people have said that to me, you know, they said, I got on that ramp at Dover and it was the worst day of my life, the worst moment of my life.

You’ve been there, right? You were there?

Scott DeLuzio: I, I, I actually didn’t go to Dover. No, I, but I’ve, I, I know the feeling that,

Les Carroll: but you know, yeah, you’ve got to know the feeling, but, um, you know, but people said to me, but when I got there and I saw the respect and dignity that my son or daughter, husband, wife was, you know, how they were being treated. You know, they’ve said, I felt better, or I felt, you know, a rush of calm, or, you know, the tremendous anxiety that I was feeling eased a little bit, you know, kind of [00:51:00] thing.

So, you know, it didn’t feel good. Nobody, nobody feels good on the ramp of Dover.

Scott DeLuzio: no, but,

Les Carroll: You might’ve

Scott DeLuzio: there are things to make it feel worse if, if it’s,

Les Carroll: yeah, it could be a lot worse. You might’ve, you might’ve felt better knowing that, that we were going to take the best possible care of your loved one. And we were going to honor him or her, you know, with the, with the dignity and honor they deserved.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. Um, again, thank you for the work that you’ve done. Uh, I, I, through, um, not only, not only the documentary in, in your book, which I think are super important to have out there, but also the work that you did as a podcaster. Public Affairs Officer through, um, you know, especially at Dover, but all the other, uh, places that you were in Afghanistan and, and, you know, everywhere else that you, you were, um, you know, working there.

Um, because again, my attitude has changed tremendously [00:52:00] since I was in Afghanistan, but, uh, you know, the, There are stories, there are things that need to be told, and they need to be out there. And if they’re not out there, um, then they get forgotten and folks like you are the ones, uh, telling the stories and getting those stories out there and, and helping kind of facilitate those types of things with the media and, and making sure that those stories don’t get forgotten and that they, they are heard.

Uh, you know, able to be told. So, so to me, it’s definitely an incredibly important, uh, job that you had, um, and, and the folks, you know, on your team, the, the, the people that work together to make sure that these stories got out there and that the media had what they needed in order to, um, uh, you know, tell the stories essentially and, and do it respectfully too,

Les Carroll: I feel like in retirement, I can contribute because, um, you know, I’m, you know, I’m [00:53:00] writing books and they’re books. I’m again, I’m going out and selling and signing and doing, but I think the messages touch people and can make a difference. And I can do that, um, better as a writer or filmmaker than maybe if I was doing, you know, some other thing.

Some other type of service to, to the fallen or to families or gold star families. I mean, there’s so much we can do. Um, you know, I don’t participate in all of the, the, the runs and the, the 5k runs and the parades and, and everything. And I don’t, you know, I don’t, I have done Reefs Over America one time, Reefs Over America,

Scott DeLuzio: yeah.

Les Carroll: that one.

Um, you know, and I don’t do it all the time, but this is the way I feel like I can. I can tell, contribute by telling these stories and, you know, hope and hopefully making families like you feel like, you know, feel like that your, your service meant something, your brother’s sacrifice meant something. No matter what the [00:54:00] outcome of the war, you, you want to know that your brother’s service meant something and his

Scott DeLuzio: absolutely.

Les Carroll: and your family’s sacrifice,

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And to that point, uh, a hundred percent, we, we feel that, um, you know, it, it did mean something, um, and that we were taken care of with the utmost respect and dignity, and, uh, I think everyone all along the way, um, really did a tremendous job, um, you know, every, everything from, because I was there in Afghanistan, when.

They had the ramp ceremony and I saw him going on to the plane.

Les Carroll: served and you’ve lost somebody. That’s pretty unusual.

Scott DeLuzio: is, it is actually. I looked into the data on that. It doesn’t happen often. Um, And, you know, but everything from, from Afghanistan all the way to, you know, our hometown, uh, every, everything was, um, you know, all the way [00:55:00] to the, the grave site.

Every, everyone was, uh, tremendous. So, and even, even beyond, no, it doesn’t end there

Les Carroll: ain’t end in Dover. It’s got to be, it’s got to carry on, you know, through the funeral, the burial, and beyond,

Scott DeLuzio: and beyond that too. Yeah,

Les Carroll: So let me, so you’ve been, you’ve been complimenting me a lot. Let me say to you, thank you for your service. And as a Gold Star family member, thank you for your sacrifice, because I, you know, I have interviewed a lot of Gold Star families.

I know a lot of Gold Star families. So at least, I can’t say I know what you’re going through, but I know, you know, I know that it’s, that it’s tough. And I know that Gold Star families are in this very, very exclusive club that nobody wants to be in. It’s

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. No, nobody asked for an application to be included in

Les Carroll: great, it’s this great society that you wish you weren’t in.

Scott DeLuzio: Exactly. Yeah. Um, before we wrap up this episode, um, I know a lot of times the episodes, uh, cover kind of heavier topics. [00:56:00] So little, uh, you know, little difficult topics to, uh, kind of go over. And, and so I like to end things on kind of a lighter note and, and kind of hopefully Uh, leave people laughing, a little, little smile on their face at least, uh, before we, we wrap up the episode.

And, um, whenever I have another veteran on the show, I like to do a segment that I call Is It Service Connected? And it’s, if you think about it, it’s sort of like America’s Funniest Home Videos, uh, Military Edition, where we watch a service member do something funny or stupid

Les Carroll: note about that, I thought, well, man, there’s, this is not going to go with a hour long discussion about Dover, but,

Scott DeLuzio: Oh, we, I’ll make it work. I’ll make it work.

Les Carroll: make it work. Plus I do have a pretty funny one myself, if you want me to tell my own, but

Scott DeLuzio: we we could do that. I, I do have a, a, a quick video here that we, we watch it take a, take a look. We can laugh at it. And, uh, you know, I think the way service members do, we can kind of laugh and joke about, you know, the [00:57:00] misfortune of others a little bit. So. Let me, uh, share my screen so you can see it and then, uh, then we’ll take a look.

And for the audio only listeners right now, I’ll, I’ll try to describe it as best as I can, but your best bet, again, I’ve said this before on other episodes, go to YouTube, go to, uh, you know, other, uh, places where the video is, uh, Twitter or wherever you can find it and, uh, and check it out there right now.

Uh, it looks like we got a, uh, recruit at the top of a rappelling, uh,

Les Carroll: Absolutely. Works here okay.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, it looks like he’s about to rappel down this, this wall and. When I was in basic training, um, I I’m definitely afraid of heights. I, I am awful. And my drill sergeant figured out really quickly how petrified I was at the top of a wall like this.

And as I’m stepping over, he, he’s like, Oh my God, you’re not tied in right. And he, he made some sort of, you know, joke like that. And I climbed back up that wall like [00:58:00] you, like you would never believe. And I was like white as a ghost. He said, I was, I was so petrified, but then the worst part about it, he made me go back down and I had to finish the going down the wall.

And I was like, this is not cool, but, uh, let’s take a look at, you know, how poorly, uh, this, this poor, unfortunate soul, uh, does on this, uh, this repelling tower. So let’s check, take a look. So right now he’s. Just got both feet over. He’s he’s about to start going, but you could tell he’s

Les Carroll: lean back, lean back, lean back.

Scott DeLuzio: he’s not leaning back.

He’s, he’s still like just standing there,

Les Carroll: Yeah. He doesn’t want, he doesn’t want to go down. He don’t want to,

Scott DeLuzio: Now he’s leaned back. Uh, not

Les Carroll: can’t see behind him.

Scott DeLuzio: oh gosh, now he’s upside down.

Les Carroll: Oh my gosh.

Scott DeLuzio: not, he’s screaming like a,

Les Carroll: Yeah. Oh

Scott DeLuzio: he’s hanging on his feet are off the wall. He’s his arms. His legs are [00:59:00] flailing everywhere. Um, he’s. His head’s down towards the ground and they’re, and they are slowly, slowly letting him down off the, uh, uh, down, down the, uh, the rope.

Les Carroll: a service connected.

Scott DeLuzio: That would that be service connected by the time he,

Les Carroll: Well, let,

Scott DeLuzio: think the anxiety maybe, uh, you know,

Les Carroll: here’s the only thing about that. I don’t know the exact rule. But, but before you complete basic training, your status is different than if you complete basic training as far as your veteran status, your benefits. But I would hope that if that guy fell and broke his arm, that he’d at least, he’d at least get it treated by the, I mean, they wouldn’t, they wouldn’t put him at, even if he was going to get out,

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah,

Les Carroll: they would take care of his broken arm before, you know, before, um,

Scott DeLuzio: and I got to imagine an injury during training like that

Les Carroll: yeah, we’ll get taken care of.

Scott DeLuzio: connected. Yeah,

Les Carroll: Yeah, but I

Scott DeLuzio: to

Les Carroll: know [01:00:00] whether

Scott DeLuzio: know. Maybe not.

Les Carroll: whether or not you get perpetual veteran benefits is different.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and I guess it depends on the nature of the injury and severity. I mean, I suppose if he broke his neck and he was paralyzed, couldn’t walk

Les Carroll: Yeah. Then. Oh,

Scott DeLuzio: yeah, that probably is. Would be, but it looked like they, they caught him. So I think he’s going to be okay.

Les Carroll: that happened, he’d have to be medically retired. Hopefully he just, hopefully he just made a fool out of himself.

Scott DeLuzio: I think, I think it was more of a bruise to his ego then.

Les Carroll: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I’m sure he, I’m sure he got, they probably called him all kind of, you know, skydiver and all kinds of

Scott DeLuzio: Oh yeah. Or, or like, you know, what, like what are those like window cling things that like on the back of a car, you know, like that’s kind of what he looked like sitting on the wall

Les Carroll: Yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: anyways.

Les Carroll: that was probably a little better than mine, but

Scott DeLuzio: You’re, you’re free to share it if you want. Uh,

Les Carroll: I don’t, I don’t know. I don’t know. It might, it might, um, might detract a little bit from my dignity. I’m trying to

Scott DeLuzio: okay. We [01:01:00] can, we can, we can leave it.

Les Carroll: for a meeting and I was running up the stairs and, and the, it was an old, you know, it was an old Afghan building and the, and the bottom stair was closed.

Cracked like big chunk of it was missing. So I sat there, lost my balance, reached and grabbed the railing and just, and tore my rotator cuff.

Scott DeLuzio: Oh no.

Les Carroll: And, um, you know, and I said, man, really hurts. And people said, well, you better go see the, you know, you better go see the doctor and get it, you know, get it recorded or, you know, get it in your record.

And I said, okay, so I went to the doctor and, you know, he says, I can’t, you know, he didn’t have x ray or anything, but, you know, he said, well, I’ll just put it in your, you know, your record that you. That you injured your shoulder. And so when I got home, I got x rayed and I had a torn rotator cuff and got 10 percent VA disability.

Scott DeLuzio: Well, that is, that is a,

Les Carroll: Service connected.

Scott DeLuzio: important message there. Get it documented, you know,

Les Carroll: Yeah. [01:02:00] Oh yeah. That’s yeah. If I had not gone to the doctor in Afghanistan and have that in my record, um, or, or be careful when you’re walking upstairs, especially in Afghanistan, when you’ve got these buildings that are all beat up and stuff, and in case there’s a big chunk of the stair missing.

Scott DeLuzio: The way I noticed they, they kind of handle construction and, and things like that over there is good enough is the standard that they’re, they’re going for. So, um, again, uh, before, uh, I do want to thank you again, uh, you know, for taking the time to come on, sharing your stories and, uh, you know, everything that you’ve done, uh, over the, over your career, um, through your, your time in Afghanistan, your time at Dover, uh, and, and what you’re doing now, uh, giving back, uh, by telling these stories.

I really do appreciate it. So thank you again.

Les Carroll: Thanks. Appreciate it, Scott.

Scott DeLuzio: Thanks for listening to the Drive On Podcast. If you want to support the show, please check out Scott’s [01:03:00] book, Surviving Son on Amazon. All of the sales from that book go directly back into this podcast and work to help veterans in need. You can also follow the Drive On Podcast on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube, and wherever you listen to podcasts.