Episode 430 Becky Ellis Healing Through Generational Trauma Transcript

This transcript is from episode 430 with guest Becky Ellis.

Scott DeLuzio: [00:00:00] Thanks for tuning in to the Drive On Podcast where we are focused on giving hope and strength to the entire military community. Whether you’re a veteran, active duty, guard, reserve, or a family member, this podcast will share inspirational stories and resources that are useful to you. I’m your host, Scott DeLuzio, and now let’s get on with the show.

Hey everyone, welcome back to Drive On. I’m your host, Scott DeLuzio, and today my guest is Becky Ellis. Becky is the daughter of a highly decorated World War II combat sergeant and Authority in writing and the author of a touching memoir titled Little Avalanches. In her book, she gives an insightful account of the war fought at home by veterans families, which is often left untold.

And today we’ll discuss how families handle these experiences, uh, intergenerational trauma and the need for difficult [00:01:00] conversations within families. Uh, before we get into all that though, uh, first I want to welcome you to the show, Becky. Uh, really glad to have you here.

Becky Ellis: Well, I’m really happy to be here. Thank you for having me. I appreciate the work you do on this podcast.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, and I appreciate you coming on and sharing, uh, some of the experiences that you and your, your family have kind of gone through and, uh, how that might be able to help some other folks, um, you know, kind of lessons learned from your experiences and how they can apply them to, uh, their own lives.

So, um, could you share with our listeners, some of your experiences kind of growing up as a daughter of a war veteran and how this influenced you, uh, as, as life went on?

Becky Ellis: Sure. Yeah. And I’ll do my best to be as helpful as I can. I think it’s important that we share our stories. So my dad was a combat Sergeant in World War II, just to give some context. He came back in 1945 and within [00:02:00] six years he got his college degree and became a doctor. And, um, I was, when he, when I was born, he was about 41.

So he had been back from the war for 20 years and was still living with PTSD. And one of the things that my father insisted was he wanted his kids to be tough as nails, tough as old nails, really. And he wanted us to be prepared and prepared for what we had no idea. Um, He did stuff like when I was little, I had my teeth drilled without Novocaine, we hid from fandom Nazis, I learned to shoot a gun at a really young age, and it was all stuff that was happening in my family and not happening in other families, and I sort of figured this out when I got to elementary school.

You know, other kids were having barbecues and swimming and learning to disco and roller skate. We weren’t doing that. Um, and so, but my dad didn’t talk about [00:03:00] anything. He didn’t, wouldn’t talk about the past, not five years ago, not five minutes ago. So we didn’t really understand why we were going through these hard things.

And I think that I became disassociative to survive, and I think that’s understand that, understand that concept better than anybody else. And I grew up to be really successful. It’s, it’s part of being tough. I was capable and competent and strident, and I could be all the things that are required for success in corporate America.

And I did that, and I had this really carefully curated life and I, Um, was tough and I was guarded. And what that meant was I was hiding. I was hiding from everybody, including myself. And my worth became tied up in how successful and how tough I was. And I could never be as successful or as tough as my dad, um, with his 13 medals and his medical [00:04:00] career and everything else.

So I got in the cycle of, I could never be enough. No matter how much I did, no matter how much I succeeded, no matter how tough I was, I was never enough. And what I was was I was cut off and guarded. So that’s kind of how that played out in my personal life.

Scott DeLuzio: I, I can see how you can, you can fall into that trap of, uh, I’ll, I’ll never hit that, that level of, uh, toughness, right? You’re, you’re not going on combat deployments yourself and you’re not getting, uh, you know, the, uh, Uh, kind of dump, uh, tossed into the deep end if you will, um, with, uh, all the stuff that he probably experienced and a lot of combat vets experience.

Um, It is tough, um, being a combat vet myself, I, it is a difficult thing to be, uh, doing, but you also have to understand that not everyone is [00:05:00] going to experience that, and, and quite frankly, I wouldn’t want anyone else to have to experience that, um, you know, it, it, it’s terrible, the things that people see in, in combat, um,

Becky Ellis: Yeah. My dad, my dad was in the 104th Infantry Division and they were timber wolves. Uh, general, they were sort of under General Terry Allen and they were night fighters. And his. division was in consecutive combat for 195 days. And my dad made it 172 days. It’s a lot of combat and a lot of trauma. And he told us as kids, joining the military was not an option.

He told us if we thought about it, he’d shoot us himself and save us the misery. That was his motto.

Scott DeLuzio: yeah, and you know, I, I can’t say I necessarily agree with the, the tactics there. Um, but, but [00:06:00] I, I can understand why someone who has experienced that much combat consecutively day after day after day for that many days, um, you know, one day is a lot to, Um, and then you, you add on that many more, um, gosh, you know, nobody wants that for their, their families, um, or, or, or for anyone, quite frankly, um, and so you’ve talked about the, a cycle of, of silencing and secret keeping and in veteran families, what, what does that mean and, and how does that, um, how did that play out in your family?

Becky Ellis: Yeah. I think that, um, You know, I’m not exactly sure where it comes from. I, in my family, it came from my father, who was the veteran himself. And I mentioned, he didn’t talk about the past. He did not want to relive it. He wanted to get away from it. I know it came from a good place. He didn’t want to put us through it [00:07:00] or traumatize us with what he’d been through, but the silence is actually the armor.

And we think it’s guarding us from harm. But it is really preventing us from forming relational closeness and love, which, which are basic human needs. And my father talked about how, when he was in the service, when he was in combat, you have this relational closeness, really close with the guys. And he told me when he did finally open up, he said that, um, People say they miss combat.

He said, it’s not combat that we miss. It’s the relational closeness because then we come back to society and we feel so alienated and no one can understand us. And we don’t have that human closeness anymore. And so this silence though, perpetuates this guardedness and this inability. Um, to have relational closeness, and when we can’t understand each other, we can’t feel close [00:08:00] to each other.

So even though he was trying to protect us, it was, it was preventing him and us from having one of those basic human needs filled.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And you were talking earlier about how he wanted to prepare you guys to get you ready. And you’re like, ready for what? Like, you know, we don’t really understand this. Right. Um, and There, there’s something to be said for having skills in, in your toolbox that you can carry with you. Um, you know, the boy scouts, if you think about, you know, they, you ask any boy scout, can you go start a fire to, you know, a campfire type thing?

They can go do that when they’re at home and it’s cold. They’re, you know, they turn on the heat like most other people and they don’t need to go and chop down wood and, and start a fire and do the whole thing. Um, But they could, [00:09:00] right? And so in the back of your head, it’s like, okay, well, it makes sense to some degree to have some sort of, uh, skill sets that, that would be helpful if you need it, but also understand that you’re not going to need to know how to, uh, Shoot your way to the grocery store.

Um, you know, on a day to day basis, you’re not, you’re not going to be ambushed as you’re, you’re walking into the mall. Um, you, you know, things like that are not things that typically happen, uh, on a day to day basis. Most people can, can get through life without, you know, Needing to fall back on those things on a day to day basis, unfortunately for people like your father, he needed to have those skills on a day to day basis for an extended period of time and perhaps, I don’t know, maybe I’m, I’m projecting here a little bit, but, um, perhaps because he needed it, he wanted to make sure that you had it in case you needed it.

Um, it doesn’t make it [00:10:00] necessarily, um, You know, a great situation because like you were just saying, uh, you miss out on some of those other, uh, things that typical. People, typical families do, uh, you know, like you said, roller skating or, you know, going to, uh, backyard barbecues and things like that. Those are the things that create those connections that, that people need.

Right.

Becky Ellis: Right, absolutely. And you know, my father’s choices to do what he did to make us tough, he put us in dangerous situations a lot. And when he ultimately opened up and talked to me, and just so your listeners know, he was 89 years old when he came to me and said, You know, sweetheart, do we have any issues to clear up?

That’s like, oh my god, do we have issues, dad? We have so many issues. My father married four times and fathered eight children. Like I said, he didn’t explain anything to anyone, [00:11:00] but I wanted to hear about the war and that’s when At 89 years old, he finally opened up and it took a lot of persistence to get him to open up.

I didn’t just say, Hey, why don’t you tell me about this? And he was like, sure, darling. It wasn’t that deal. It was, it was hard. But, um, what I wanted to say is once he started to open up, he told me that. He put us through and into these dangerous situations over and over to prove to him that we would survive.

And he said he did it to himself even more. Like, he used to put me on the back of his Harley or on the front of his Harley and ride down the freeway. I was like eight years old and he would let go of the seatbelt. Let go of the steering and I would have to drive the Harley going like 80 miles an hour down the highway.

It was terrifying to me as a young girl, but this kind of stuff happened all the time. And he said he was trying to prove to himself that we would survive and that he would survive. And [00:12:00] so he was kind of caught in the survival cycle. So yeah, we did have to be aware when we were going to the grocery store of where everybody was, you know, and.

And it’s like you said, it’s a skill, you know, if, if we’re all on the Titanic, all my girlfriends want to be on my life boat because they know I’m not going to give up,

Scott DeLuzio: Right, right, right. Um, and, and that, that makes sense. Um, it, it doesn’t make sense. Some of the things, you know, putting you in dangerous situations like that, um, you know, having you steering the motorcycle because as an eight year old kid, there’s a reason why there’s an age for people to start driving, uh, you know, as an eight year old kid, that’s not the age, um, and, and that’s maybe not.

Not the best way to, um, to do these things. Maybe, maybe take it in a little more age appropriate manner. Um, and definitely don’t put people in dangerous situations. That’s, that’s not a great, um, that’s not great there, but, [00:13:00] um, so tell us a little bit about the kind of the next steps. So, so this. Obviously this kind of had a traumatic effect on you in your life.

Um, you grew up to be successful, kind of driven and motivated to be successful. Um, how do you see that? Influencing your life now that you kind of have a little better understanding of where this came from, um, has it kind of shifted any of your outlook or, or, you know, maybe future generations and, and how they, um, how they are treated, uh, I’m assuming that you don’t.

Uh, you know, have young kids on, on Harleys going on, uh, down the highway yourself. But, um, you know, is there, um, uh, you know, future generations, how, how would, how do you, uh, see that intergenerational trauma, uh, kind of moving down the line?

Becky Ellis: that’s [00:14:00] a great question. And I have three daughters, they’re all in their twenties now. And I, it was my intention to raise my children kind of the opposite of the way my father raised me. But not, not to coddle them. Or anything like that, but to just raise them with joy and being carefree and happy and not carrying this pain, you know, my father carried a huge amount of pain as, as he should have,

Scott DeLuzio: Mm hmm.

Becky Ellis: This was what happened, right? And, and when we don’t work with our pain and deal with our pain, our whole family felt his pain. We all carried his pain. And when you don’t deal with it, you become the pain. And so even though I was trying to parent the opposite of, of how I was raised, once I understood my dad and I could, I could kind of see myself In, in the mirror that he provided to me when he [00:15:00] talked to me about who he was and what he’d been through, I started to make connections and I started to understand, Oh, so your battalion had a 300 percent casualty rate, which means your guys were replaced all of them three times.

And you and one other guy survived. And So I sort of now understand why you replaced wives, like other men replace cars, you know, and I could start to make these connections. And in terms of passing it down, you know, I was a tough, uh, I was tough as a teenager and I, I think I’m a super sweet, kind person.

I would describe myself that way, but I can turn on a dime and be, be really tough. And I don’t want to be that way. I want to be strong and capable and survive. Um, so how it’s passed down is one of the things that required of my sweet, kind, joyful daughters was [00:16:00] that they get their second degree black belt in a martial art before they could date.

I’m like, nope, this is what, how it’s going to be, you know, because I, I don’t know if that’s, That’s that reasonable. I’m, I’m glad I did it, but you know, when I see how, how it’s passed down and the silencing is passed down. And once I wrote this book and my kids read it, they were like, Oh, like we kind of understand now why you parented, parented the way you did, why you parent the way you do.

And me learning to talk to my dad has opened me up to talk to my children. And our conversations are really messy, but, but they’re so good because we can understand each other now and, and they can, I can understand that they didn’t have my experience the way I didn’t have my father’s experience and I could see them for the experience they have.

And that’s a super hard thing to [00:17:00] do, but it’s. Through conversation and through sharing our stories, that’s how we get to that place. Does that make sense? I know it’s a little convoluted. It’s complex.

Scott DeLuzio: It is complex, but it does make sense. Um, and I was just thinking about how, uh, those conversations that you have are messy sometimes. Sometimes they need to be messy. They need to shine light on some of the uncomfortable Things that are going on in somebody’s life or, or have happened in somebody’s life.

Um, you know, if your father from an early age told you about, uh, and I don’t mean like, you know, four or five years old and told you about the, the gruesomeness of, of war. Um, but you know, from an earlier age started opening up about the war and telling you about what was going on. [00:18:00] Had gone on and what he experienced and what made him tick, you know, if you will, um, maybe you could have wrapped your head a little around that stuff a little bit more.

And, um, and then maybe if he had those conversations with you, um, you know, uh, you, you could have said, Hey, you know, I don’t know that I need to necessarily, uh, be so on alert as I go into the grocery store. Uh, that, that type of thing. Um, You know, and, and just had those conversations, um, versus, um, you know, what, what did happen and, and that, that unfortunately, um, you know, had, had a, uh, significant impact on, on you.

Um, but. It didn’t necessarily need to. Um, it didn’t need to be that tough. Um, you know, it’s a, it’s not a bad thing to be tough, but it’s also a good thing to experience the joy in life and, and things like that. So there’s a balance, I think. [00:19:00] And based on what you’re saying, it seems like you found a way to have a little bit more of that balance.

Um, and You know, with your own family, and, you know, maybe it’s not a perfect balance, right? Maybe it’s slightly skewed in one way or another, but, um, That will help now that you’ve you’ve written this book and you you can talk to your your kids about this That will help them in their futures and in their You know future relationships and and when they perhaps even have children of their own they’ll be able to You know You know, kind of apply some of that and maybe get closer to a more perfect balance with that.

Um, you know, so still being tough, um, but, but also recognizing that there’s some good stuff in this life and, and we should, we should encourage those things to the, the joy of, of living, right? Um,

Becky Ellis: [00:20:00] Absolutely. And you know, it’s, it’s a, the paradox between being tough and tender. And that’s the balance that I think we’re trying to hold. And, uh, you know, we need to survive. We need to know how to do that, but we need to know how to be tender too. So we have joy and The conversations with my daughters, they have taught me so much about, you know, being able to try and try again and try to get it right.

You know, um, we’re not here to be right. We’re here to get it right, you know, and they, they give me grace, you know, and it requires when, when we start a convert, when I start a conversation with them, sometimes I get it wrong and it requires me to go do some deep personal. internal focus of why am I reacting this way or why am I feeling this way?

And then I come back to them and I kind of explain the way my dad did. Oh, the reason I’m like this, I think might be [00:21:00] because of this. And let’s go from here. This is now I can see this as my experience and it’s not your experience.

Scott DeLuzio: That’s right. Yeah. And so, so these, these conversations, you’ve kind of figured out how to have these conversations with, uh, with your dad and then eventually with, with your own kids and your own family. Um, For, I’m just trying to think like the, the takeaways from this, um, for the folks who might be dealing with this in their own family, um, say someone is a combat veteran who’s listening to this episode right now, or maybe a family member of a combat veteran who’s dealing with a similar situation.

Um, how do you broach the subject? How do you bring these things up? How do you, how do you start and get the ball rolling, uh, with, with these difficult conversations?

Becky Ellis: Well, I think [00:22:00] that it’s really hard to have empathy or compassion when we don’t understand. someone. I think it requires us to like transcend our humanity and be divine and we can try to do that from time to time but it’s really hard to maintain that angelic like um spirit in the world day to day and everybody has reasons for doing what they do and So that’s the thing is to try to get to understand, okay, why, what are the reasons for this?

Why is this person doing this or reacting this way? And I think that what it requires Is like to have those tough conversations is to set aside our own agendas and to, if we’re truly going to understand, we need to put our own agenda aside. Even though our agenda is for understanding it, it’s about just opening up and [00:23:00] listening and being patient, but also being persistent.

What. Like I said, when my father opened up to me, you know, it was over a tuna sandwich on a Tuesday afternoon. And he said, do we have any issues? He didn’t just start talking. I had, it was back and forth and back and forth for about two hours of, look, I want to know, well, all you need to know is my feet were frozen for 172 days.

I’m sure there’s more dad. Oh, it was just one big party. Becky. Well, I’m sure that was more than a party dad, you know, and it requires persistence. It requires patience, non judgment. I think we need to set our judgment aside. Um, and if, you know, persistence, patience, openness, non judgment, um, that we’re listening to learn and to understand and being curious. And it’s hard. I think that I’ve spoken to a lot of veterans [00:24:00] and they’ve told me that no one can understand their experience. So why should they bother? And I think that’s true. No one, everyone’s experience is unique and I don’t think we can really understand, but we can try. And once we can hear some of it, we can come to a place of empathy and compassion.

And that’s so important. I know it’s a flowery word, but it’s, it’s such a deeply felt word. Um, it’s such a deeply felt thing. And it, it really creates that relational closeness that we all need.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, I think you’re right about not fully being able to understand somebody else’s experience. Um, when I talk to other veterans, sometimes they will go into therapy and the therapist that they [00:25:00] get assigned to or assigned to them, however you want to look at it, uh, is not a combat veteran. Transcribed And they get up and they walk out and they’re like, well, this person will never understand what I went through.

And they’re probably right. Um, they won’t understand the feeling that you get when bullets start flying over your head or, uh, or when explosions are going off nearby or when you lose a buddy or when, uh, you know, all of these things they, they may not understand because they’ve never been in that same situation as you.

I’ve been in combat. And I won’t understand exactly every single thing that Another combat veteran went through because their experience from their perspective is their experience, and I’m not gonna understand it fully I’ll be able to kind of I get it, you know, but I’m not gonna understand it the way they do 100 percent [00:26:00] but I

Becky Ellis: something, some, I don’t want to interrupt you, but something that happened when my dad was telling me his story, and this didn’t happen on just a Tuesday, it started on a Tuesday over a tuna sandwich, but it lasted a week. And then the week drew into months and then the months into years. And he was trying to explain.

And I kept asking, well that’s something separate. Let me finish this thought to address what you just said is that my father told me horror story after horror story. And I kept saying, he’s like, I can’t tell you this. And I’m like, no, dad, I’m tough. I can handle it. Tell me, you know, it makes me kind of, I Sad and emotional when I think of him as 89 sitting across from me, still worried that I might not be able to handle hearing it.

I’m like, I’m tough, I can handle it. But he did reach a point in his story that was so horrible that I couldn’t even imagine what that would be [00:27:00] like. I suddenly, for the first time, saw him as someone separate from me. And it is bizarre that it took that long. You know, I was in my late forties when this happened.

And I saw him as a distant husband, a wounded veteran, a lonely man. I saw him completely separate from my own needs and desires when, and it was the point when I feel like I finally understood him. It was unimaginable to me, and he experienced it, and it wasn’t just a bunch of guys getting blown up, which happened all the time for him.

And so, I let go of all my expectations and all of my desires of who I wanted him to be as a grandfather. Who I needed him to be as a father. I just got to see him for who he really was. And that was such [00:28:00] a gift. And if we can really experience each other for who we really are, I think that is where this kind of the turning point happens.

And that’s what happened for me. And that takes a lot of courage to continue to share and continue to share your story. Even when you think someone’s not going to understand you.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And like you said, this wasn’t just over lunch one day on a Tuesday that all of this came out. This, this came out that day, the next week, the week after that, the month, you know, months and years later, it, it took time to draw all of this information out. And, and who knows, you may not have it. Ever gotten the full story, there may still be little bits and pieces that you never really got around to, um, or, or maybe just that were so terrible that you couldn’t bring it up, um, for one reason or another, but [00:29:00] there’s patience.

Um, you, you have to have, um, patience, um, persistence, I think was the word that you were, you were using before. Um, And, and compassion, uh, knowing that, Hey, this person went through hell and it’s not easy to talk about. So just being like, Oh, we’ll just talk about it. It, it, it’s not that easy, uh, for some people and you may need to.

Take a break. Um, it, you know, therapy sessions last for, you know, typically they go into a hour of therapy session because you don’t necessarily want to be talking about the worst day of your life or days of your life, uh, for hours and hours on end. Um, sometimes you might need to break it up into small chunks and um, there’s, there’s a fine balancing act I think between all of that.

Um, you know, yeah. And when, when you experienced this, um, [00:30:00] I think you were, you were smart in, in not doing it. All at once. Tell me everything right now. And we’re not, we’re not leaving this, uh, this, uh, table until, uh, you get it all out there because, I mean, that’s, that’s like the, uh, the saying, how do you eat an elephant?

And the answer is one bite at a time. You, you can’t eat the whole elephant at once. Um, it, it’s just too much. Um, and so, yeah. Very similarly, you can’t get all of it out at once. Um, however, with each conversation, you get closer and closer to, uh, building that, that compassion and that empathy for that other person to, uh, sort of understand where they’re coming from, at least if, if you can’t understand exactly what happened because you didn’t experience it, you can at least, uh, understand, uh, Why they are the way that they are based on those experiences that they maybe have described [00:31:00] to you, right?

Becky Ellis: Yeah. And I also want to say that it, it was hard on my dad. You know, I, I know this isn’t easy. It takes a lot of courage and a lot of strength. He, it was 70 years. He had been holding all of it inside for 70 years before he spoke about it. And when we were young, he would say, He used to fire off stories when he was drunk and my sister called it like he would tell us stories like machine gun fire.

It would come hard and fast and then it would stop and it would cut straight through us. And it, there were horrible, scary stories, um, to hear as a five, six, seven, nine, 10 year old, but, and it wasn’t intentional. It just was happening to him. And. So when he was older and he’d been holding this all for 70 years, none of it went away.

It’s, it’s not like it went away because he didn’t talk about it and he didn’t talk about it because he wanted it to go away. [00:32:00] But when he did start talking about it, it was a process and he has, he had nightmares his entire life. I don’t think he slept one full night without having a war nightmare, but when he started talking about it, they came back in a furious way.

And he was 89 and it was hard on him, which is why you can’t have it all in one day or one week. It, it took us years to get to how he felt about some of this stuff. And, um, it was hard on me too. But it, I think it was harder on him, but over time, I could tell that with each story told, he was getting lighter and he was getting lighter.

And my dad was someone who never identified as being a veteran. He never talked about it. People in town, he knew he was a veteran and people close to him knew, but the only way he ever, uh, [00:33:00] would show any type of kind of veteran service was he used to wear a tiny little American flag pin on his lapel whenever he wore a suit.

That was it. And he now, he, he loved to wear, um, shirts with wolves on them because he was a timber wolf, but most people had no idea even what that meant. His password was always, um, timber wolf or the lone wolf he called himself, something like that. But. That, that was, that was it. And so when about nine months into talking to me and sharing his stories with me, he started wearing a World War II veterans cap.

And this is something that I write about because I picked him up at the airport one day and he had his hat on and I thought, He had lost his mind. Like, is he? Where did my dad go? Because it, he was broadcasting across his forehead that he was a veteran, where he wouldn’t even talk about it before.

And so people started stopping him in the airport. [00:34:00] And I was like, wow, like, it was this incredible transformation for him. I don’t think, His nightmares ever stopped. I was with him when he died, and I know that he took survivor’s guilt to his grave. I know that. I don’t think he ever lived a day without thinking about the guys that he lost.

Um, but, um, I think that sharing his stories and getting it out of him, I think was really helpful to him. And not only did it help me and my children, it helped him as well, I think.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. I was going to ask because there clearly was a benefit for you and your Children and in future generations in coming to some understanding and learning about some of what he went through. Um, but I was going to ask if, That was also a reciprocal. Was it beneficial for him as well? Um, but it [00:35:00] seems like it was because, you know, someone going from basically being all clammed up and not talking about, uh, anything related to the military, even with family, um, you know, except for the rare occasion, um, That, uh, and then, then going into now talking about it and, and now wearing the, the, the veteran cap to, uh, you know, basically let the world know that, Hey, you know, I’m, I’m a, I’m a veteran and, um, you know, some people don’t want that attention and I can see that for someone who doesn’t want to think about it, um, but now you see someone who’s wearing that, that cap and all of a sudden it’s like, Well, maybe they’re getting okay with thinking about it.

And so I can see how that, that has. benefited him as well.

Becky Ellis: And, and identifying with it, you know, I, I never identified as being part of a [00:36:00] veteran family. My dad has 13 medals and a silver star and he’s buried in Arlington and, you know, he wanted to be buried with his guys. You know, he wanted to be buried with the Timberwolf. The Timberwolves at Arlington. And so he could go back to where he felt like he belonged, which is so deeply touching to me, yet he never identified as being a veteran openly until he was 90 years old.

Scott DeLuzio: hmm. That’s, uh, it’s, it’s so hard to hear, uh, you know, how, how many years went by, um, and basically having to carry that on his own. And, uh, I know times have definitely changed. Um, I think back then, you didn’t really talk about feelings and emotions and PTSD wasn’t even a known thing. I don’t think back then it was, you know, they had different names for it back then, but [00:37:00] it definitely wasn’t treated the way it’s treated now.

And it, um, there are definitely some advancements in that area, but also just in the general public’s. Understanding and willingness and openness to, uh, have conversations about stuff like this. I mean, um, the conversation that you and I are having right now wouldn’t have happened 70 years ago. Uh, you know, it, it just, people would have been like, okay, yeah, bad things happened.

That’s enough. We don’t need to continue talking. Nevermind. Talk about it for over a half hour now. Um, you know, it’s like, okay, move on. Um, and so we’ve definitely made some, um, advancements in that area where we are, uh, I guess as a society, we’re more willing to have these conversations. We’re more willing to go seek out mental health, uh, support and treatment and those types of things.

Um, guys from back then, it was just a whole different world. Um, And so, you know, for [00:38:00] the listeners, if you are one of those veterans and you’re struggling with this stuff, it helps to talk. It obviously does. I’m just talking to you right now, Becky, about your father and how, uh, how it helped him in, in starting to, uh, you know, be okay with people even knowing that he was a veteran.

Like he, for all those years, he wasn’t okay with even letting people know about it. Um, and then. Uh, then he’s just starts talking about it and eventually, I’m not saying this was like a light switch that happened overnight or anything like that, but, but eventually through talking about it, he started to get okay, uh, with wearing the cap and letting people know about it.

Um, and so there definitely are some benefits there. Um, you know, and, and. Again, it’s not going to be an overnight transformation where you open up, you start talking about it and it gets better. As a matter of fact, [00:39:00] it, it might be worse in the short term because it might bring up some bad memories. Um, I know when I, when I wrote my book, um, it brought up some bad memories.

There were some raw emotions and just stuff wasn’t easy to go back to. Through doing it, I kind of helped myself work through some of it, um, and, and it, I think overall was a cathartic experience. And so, um, you know, every, obviously everyone’s going to be a little bit different, but opening up, talking, having these conversations, um, uh, to me, I feel like we’ll, we’ll in the long run be beneficial for, for people.

Um, so. Let’s talk about the, the book, uh, Little Avalanches. Um, obviously you share your, your story, talked a little bit about that. [00:40:00] Um, tell us about the book. Um, you know, kind of what, what, Got you to wanting to share this story with other people. And what do you hope that folks will get from reading the book?

Yeah,

Becky Ellis: Um, so when my father started talking to me about his story, it was, it’s not glorified war. Um, it’s, it’s from the trenches, it’s combat from the trenches, and I had tried so hard as a young person, and a young adult, and even a full grown adult, to understand my father, so I read tons of books, watched tons of movies, and I never found something that felt true to me, that, oh, this was true to me.

a family’s experience of being with a veteran. Um, a lot of it’s glorified. And I wanted to write a book that could be a window and a [00:41:00] mirror. And I think, you know, you mentioned people 70 years ago didn’t talk about this and we’ve come a long way, but I think we can do better. I think Civilians need to understand what the, the window part is like here, I’m pulling back the veil, look into the life of one veteran’s family.

So you might better understand what it’s like and what these guys go through and that joining the military, whether you’re in combat or not. I think my dad joined at age, 18 years old, like a couple of days after his 18th birthday. And he didn’t know what he was getting into. And I think most young men and women don’t understand.

Most people don’t understand that you’re trading a normal life that you might’ve had for a life that you can’t even imagine. And it’s not a couple years of service. It’s a lifetime of sacrifice. It’s something that [00:42:00] profoundly changes somebody. And I want people to understand that. So I wrote it in an approachable way so civilians would be able to consume it basically and read it and understand it.

I start with my childhood story and I give voice to children of veterans and combat veterans and then I share my father’s story. And at the end of part one, people don’t like my dad very much, but they get two pages. into his story. I go straight back to literally day one on the battlefield. Two pages in, people are flooded with empathy and they’re not confronting me anymore or my father.

They’re confronting their own capacity for empathy and suffering. And It’s done in a way that is effective in showing, you know, don’t judge people for what, for what they’re doing, unless you know, [00:43:00] their whole story, like hear people’s stories. And then the 3rd part of the book is, uh, Um, the conversation my dad and I had, and I wanted to share that because people take in memoir, adults take in memoir like children take in fairy tales as psychological practice, and it’s really hard to have these conversations, and I wanted to share the conversation that my dad and I had and how that How it changed things for us, how it changed things for me and for him, and, um, so it could kind of be a model almost for, and it’s written like a novel, it’s not written like a, it’s not a how to book in any way, but it’s, it’s just a model of how two people did this, as an example of how One might start a conversation and what I didn’t realize it wasn’t an intention.

The intention was be a window for civilians and be a mirror for veteran families. So they might see themselves and feel less alone. [00:44:00] But the thing that happened is that I’m, have learned since it came out in March of 2024 this year, um, is that it has become a conversation starter. I’ve had people, veterans say, I’m giving this to my kids for Christmas, or I’m giving this to my kids because I want to tell them something, but I don’t even know how to start.

And I think this will start. This’ll be. Our start, there’s, there’s a Vietnam vet who I’ve been, I’m, I’m a writing teacher also or a coach, writing coach. And so I work with a couple of veterans and one of them is telling his story of Vietnam and he still can’t speak it out loud, but he’s writing it down.

And his, his daughter has asked him and he just can’t tell it. He needs to write it. And that’s great too, you know, writing is super therapeutic, expressive writing is super therapeutic. And so, but [00:45:00] he did give his book to his daughter and say, here, let’s try this. And it’s beautiful. Like now they’re talking.

And, um, so that’s, that’s an outcome that. I didn’t expect, but now I hope, helps more people because that’s really my goal is to, um, to help more people talk and to understand each other and to feel the relational closeness that we all desire and need.

Scott DeLuzio: absolutely. Um, and it’s great that a book like this can start as, or serve as that conversation starter where you. Might not know how to broach the subject or, or get that conversation started, um, but it can be like, Hey, I’d like to talk about this, why don’t you read this, um, and maybe we can, we can circle back and we can start a conversation.

I don’t know exactly what that might look like, [00:46:00] but we can at least. Start to have a conversation and see where it takes us. Um, you know, and, and that’s a great thing to be able to have having, having a tool like that available, um, you know, like your book where, where people can, people can use that to kind of ease their way into it instead of jumping in the deep end.

I hate to use that analogy twice in the same episode, you know, but, but just jumping into a conversation sometimes might be difficult. For some people, and like you said, there’s some people who still can’t talk about it, um, but they can write about it, and, you know, maybe that’s the way that you do it, um, that, that’s the way I started with my book was telling my story, cause I, I didn’t really like talking about it that much, um, I would, but it wasn’t, wasn’t great, um, but I, I wrote about it instead, and it, It allowed [00:47:00] me to then start opening up and talking about it.

I talk about it all the time now. Um, it was, it was hard at first to, uh, to share some of those things, um, you know, verbally, but, but writing them, I, I could do. Um, and each person might be a little bit different, but, um, but having a book like this, I think, um, like I said, as a tool to start those conversations, um, be a nice breaker maybe.

Um, it, That can be a great thing. So, um, for the listeners who. either veterans who want to get copies for other people, uh, even themselves or, or other, you know, family members who might want to get a copy of the book, uh, where they can go, where can they go, uh, to get a copy of the book and follow your work?

Becky Ellis: Uh, probably my website is the best place, which is beckyellis. net. Um, and [00:48:00] or just search little avalanches and I love to hear from veterans. Um, I’ve heard from quite a few and I always learn something new and I love hearing veteran stories. There’s a place on my website called connect and I always.

Right back and if anyone wants to share their story or I need to actually I think these conversations are so hard to have and for some reason people think I’ve become the expert at talking to veterans and I’m like, look, I’ve got a data point of one, you know, and now I’ve talked to a lot more, but I had a data point of one, like one veteran and it was my dad that I, you know, could really talk to.

And I love hearing how, you know, other veterans want to be thanked or don’t want to be thanked or just kind of how they want civilians to talk to them or approach them. I love hearing about that. Um, yeah. Because I, I want to, I know [00:49:00] everybody’s unique in their experience and their, um, ability and openness to have conversations.

And I want to be able to share the best information that I can, that includes all voices.

Scott DeLuzio: Oh, that’s awesome. So, um, I’ll have links to all of that in, in the show notes. I’ll have a link to your website and, uh, I’ll put, uh, social media links and, uh, you know, uh, link to the book and all that stuff in the show notes. Uh, so folks can get a copy of that, uh, rather easily reach out to you. Um, and, uh, Share their experiences, um, you know, to, to let you know how, how it’s impacted them and, and their lives.

Um, but before we wrap up, I wanted to thank you again for taking the time to share your personal story, your family story, uh, and your insights on, um, the, importance of [00:50:00] having these difficult conversations, um, within veteran families. Um, and hopefully people will get a copy of this, this book and, and use it like you mentioned, um, to help kickstart some of those conversations and, uh, and, and start with the healing within their own family.

And, and that would be, uh, I think a wonderful thing. So thank you again for taking the time to come on and sharing your story.

Becky Ellis: Thank you. I appreciate it.

Scott DeLuzio: Thanks for listening to the Drive On Podcast. If you want to support the show, please check out Scott’s book, Surviving Son on Amazon. All of the sales from that book go directly back into this podcast and work to help veterans in need. You can also follow the Drive On Podcast on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube, and wherever you listen to podcasts.