Episode 432 Neil Mullaney Fishing for Recreational Therapy Transcript

This transcript is from episode 432 with guest Neil Mullaney.

Scott DeLuzio: [00:00:00] Thanks for tuning in to the Drive On Podcast where we are focused on giving hope and strength to the entire military community. Whether you’re a veteran, active duty, guard, reserve, or a family member, this podcast will share inspirational stories and resources that are useful to you. I’m your host, Scott DeLuzio, and now let’s get on with the show.

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Drive On. I’m your host, Scott DeLuzio. And today, my guest is Neil Mullaney. Neil is a retired Air Force Colonel and a veteran of four combat tours and two combat commands. He has been a key player in the healthcare sector as a former executive with Humana and is currently serving as the executive director of HUMANA.

Heroes on the Water. And today we’ll be discussing aspects of military life, the transition from military to civilian life, and exploring the alternative therapies for mental health and wellness, uh, and the types [00:01:00] of work that they, uh, are doing at Heroes on the Water. So, uh, before we get into all of that though, Neil, I want to welcome you to the show.

I’m glad to have you here.

Neil Mullaney: I appreciate it, Scott, very much. I look forward to discussion.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. So before we get into kind of what it is that you’re doing now, uh, can you just maybe walk us through just a little background on yourself and, uh, you know, your, your time in the air force and, uh, the, the tours that you, you saw and, and kind of any experiences that stood out for you and, um, you know, any of them that, that maybe led you to the direction of, of where you are today.

Neil Mullaney: Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And, uh, so I don’t know how far back you want to go, uh, but I was born and raised right here in where I’m at, Louisville, Kentucky, so I’m back in line. I was, uh, number five out of six kids. So Irish Catholic family, you know, it’s a typical back in those days. Uh, and then I had the, you know, the unique opportunity, um, to have a letter from my [00:02:00] university, uh, that.

Invited me to sit out a semester and rethink my priorities in life. I always like to start with that because people think that when they see my career and all that kind of stuff, they think that I just had it all planned out and everything just went seamlessly. That is not the case. I, uh, essentially flunked out of college my first attempt.

Uh, I had a petition to get back in recognizing that I needed the discipline of something more than going to a liberal arts large university where, you know, you’re in an auditorium with 300 other students and the professor doesn’t care if you’re there. So I searched around and I went and joined the Air Force ROTC detachment.

And that’s really when I got to begin my journey about learning about the military and really forming a love for it and a passion and, and, and felt the calling. Uh, so, you know, that Skipped over one hurdle that gave me the direction I needed. So I buckled down, ended up being a [00:03:00] distinguished graduate from the RFTC detachment.

So I like to say I flunked out first and then I ended up being a dg, you know, in the end. Uh, but that wasn’t the, the end of the, my initial trials even coming into the Air Force, uh, you know, because I wanted to be tip of the spear in the Air Force, that typically means you’re gonna fly airplanes. You know, we’re really one of the, the only branches that sends our war fighters are primarily officers, uh, you know, as opposed to the army where there’s, you know, you’re leading a large group of troops, uh, while the Air Force, the enlisted support, the officers and send them off to war.

Scott DeLuzio: Sure. Thank you. Sure.

Neil Mullaney: that’s what I wanted to do, but, uh, it turns out that, uh, color vision problems. And so, uh, I couldn’t pass the color vision test. I lost my pilot slot. And so. I really had a decision, you know, to make then I’m about to, you know, graduate college, get my commission, and now I’m not going to do what I thought I was going to do, but I still had a passion.

I still felt the call to serve. And so like, well, next thing I want to do then is be as close to, you [00:04:00] know, being the tip of spear as I can. And that led me actually being probably closer than most pilots and that’s into the special operations community. So I was very fortunate to, uh, you know, get in and down to the first out at Herbert Field.

Um, quickly learned what I didn’t know, uh, because that was, of course, was a high speed, low drag organization. Uh, actually no sooner than I stepped foot after, you know, initial training, you know, I was in Panama and we were kicking Noriega out. Uh, you know, then nine months later, deployed to the first Gulf War.

So within, you know, two years of being on active duty, you know, the United States went 20 plus years without being in combat. In two years of being on active duty, I’ve already deployed twice with people shooting at me and not being very friendly. So it was truly an eye opener for me. Um, and I quickly learned, uh, a lot of things, uh, first being that, uh, I didn’t know everything, you know, and so it was very formative [00:05:00] and informative years for me during those, those early years.

And also found out that, guess what? Being in the military is a lethal business. It’s dangerous and deadly. Uh, so unfortunately during, you know, the Gulf War, I had two close friends, uh, that were on, uh, Spirit 03, which was the Spectre gunship that got shot down in the Gulf War. So in an incident, we lost 14 crew members, being the largest, uh, you know, loss in the Air Force, single loss, you know, that the Air Force had, had experienced.

And, and so that kind of woke me up. It’s like, you know what? I, this is, this isn’t just all the cool stuff and getting to do all the high speed training and all that. This, this is serious business and I need to take it seriously.

Scott DeLuzio: That’s right.

Neil Mullaney: Yeah, and so it, uh, you know, and then I, and when you’re young like that, you know, you just got almost a, um, a blind faith of our elected officials and our senior leaders and all that, where you just fully trust them.

They tell you to go take that hill, you go and you try to take that hill. So as you [00:06:00] progress through, you know, your military career and you get a little bit longer into the tooth like I am now, you learn a lot more and you know where to push back and where to question and, you know, it doesn’t really do us a whole lot of good to question why because the elected officials are the ones that decide where we go and what we do.

But we can, you know, push back on how we do it and does this make sense and, you know, how hard do we push and is it worth putting our troops at risk. So I learned how to do that, uh, to the point where, you know, my last tour, you fast forward, you know, I went to war as a lieutenant and as a colonel. I would recommend going as a colonel, but I was able to, you know, you have just a totally different perspective because.

You know, when we’re getting ready to deploy, I’m looking around at my troops, and this is a joint unit, so I have both army and air underneath my command. And, I mean, they’re the same age I was when I came in, but they just look different. You know, from this perspective, as being the old man in the room, they just look like a bunch of kids.

And we were assigned a mission that, you know, I didn’t necessarily personally agree with. [00:07:00] I thought it was a waste of time, it was just endangering our lives on a daily basis for something that wasn’t worth it. You know, you know, really very true for it and, uh, but still push through. And my troops never knew that it wasn’t until years afterwards to having a, you know, a get together with them that I really shared that, Hey, I wasn’t a big fan of this, this mission at all.

Uh, my number one goal was to execute the mission, but in a way that didn’t put us in any undue, you know, harm, uh, you know, there was still risk involved every day and all that kind of stuff. You know, it’s a totally different focus. When I was a lieutenant, it was like, hey, hard charger, didn’t care, just run out and go.

Uh, you know, as a colonel, I was like, hold on guys, let’s take a step back. Let’s think about this. Uh, and so it’s, it really, you know, what that career and having been exposed to so many different combat scenarios and a bunch of other deployments, all kinds of humanitarian relief and, you know, and nation building and stuff like that.

It just [00:08:00] really gives you, uh, the sense of. When to push hard and when to stop and take a moment and really think things through. And I think that carried forward, you know, from the military into my civilian career and into my family, into raising kids and being a better father, a better husband. You know, one of my favorite, Quotes is, you know, from Mel Gibson in the movie, uh, you know, We Were Soldiers, when the young lieutenant’s in the chapel, you know, asking Mel Gibson about being a soldier and a father.

And his response was, I think being one makes me better at the other. It doesn’t say which is which, uh, and I find that to be, you know, that just echoes with me. It just resonates with me. If

Scott DeLuzio: that does make a lot of sense too, because there’s, there’s so many parallels that, that can cross between, uh, both of those and, and you’re right. You don’t have to say which one. Uh, it’s not a chicken and the egg, uh, kind of scenario. It, you know, one could come before the [00:09:00] other. Yeah, exactly.

Symbiotic. They, they, they come, yeah. Together. And, you know, the, the stuff that you, you learn as a leader in the military, um, you, you can apply to your family life and then vice versa. You can do that. So, um, and, and both of those, they, they apply, you know, just about equally as, as true in either field. Um, you know, as a, as a Colonel you, you.

You probably are a little closer to the decision makers during those deployments. So you, you probably felt like you could push back a little bit more on some of the, um, the things that you were kind of questioning tactics and things like that. But, um, you know, as a, as a Lieutenant, you know, A lot of us were, were young and dumb at that age.

We felt like we were invincible and we could, we could do just about anything. And so, yeah, tell, tell me to go take that hill. I’m going to go take that hill. Um, I’m not going to ask why I’m just going to go do it,

Neil Mullaney: you trust the fact that the decision makers had all the information and were making the [00:10:00] correct decision and your job was just to execute it.

Scott DeLuzio: that’s right. That’s right.

Neil Mullaney: Wow. You know, maybe they didn’t have it all together because now I’m that guy making those decisions. I don’t feel like I’ve got it all together.

Scott DeLuzio: Right. And I think the older we get in life, we start to realize that nobody’s got it all figured out. We’re all kind of just winging it from time to time. I mean, we, we, you know, it’s a little bit, uh, you know, not quite that You know, we, we realize that we’re, you know, from day to day, um, we may not have the perfect answers to everything.

Um, you

Neil Mullaney: When I think that, you know, and I think one of the beautiful things about spending time in the military. Is that you’re immediately just, uh, thrusted into a diverse situation. And it could be based on socioeconomic, could be race, religion, gender. Uh, you know, it could be some, it could be services. I mean, each of the services have different cultures.

And [00:11:00] especially being, you know, two of my commands were joint commands. And so I had the opportunity to spend an inordinate amount of time with the army, a foreign air force guy. And, uh, you know, and I loved it. One of my favorite things was, you know, in Afghanistan at last tour is how close I got with my command sergeant.

And, uh, you know, we got, We were on, when we first got in country, we were assigned to Bagram, which, you know, Bagram was a huge base, 30, 000 people on it, and it was just, but only a few of us ever left out and went outside of the wire. Well, at that point, they were doing, you know, they were doing some shuffling of the forces and they didn’t have enough.

Maneuver units out in the battle space. So they kicked us off Bogger. We go to, you know, our new combat outpost and we have to build it. I mean, we have to build the, the B Huts we’re living in and working in and running missions out of and all that kind of stuff. So the Sergeant Major and I decided to be helpful.

And we’re going to go to supply and pick up the [00:12:00] materials. And, uh, you know, when I have a different way of doing things, you know, some other Army O6s may have a different way of doing things or whatever. We can walk into supply. For one thing, that would scare the shit out of any country O6 and a command sergeant major walking in to draw supplies.

And so anyway, I give the rec to the sergeant major. He fills it out cause he, he knows construction. He knows what we need. We hand it back to the young troop, you know, working the counter, and he looks at it, he goes through his little file, pulls out the signature card, and my name’s not on the signature card, and I’m the one that signed the requisition, and he comes back to sweating bullets.

And I mean, I could see the fear in his eyes and he’s stuttered, you know, stuttering a little bit. He goes, sir, he goes, you know, I’m sorry, but your name’s not on the card on who’s authorized to draw supplies from your unit. And I just kind of smiled. Sorry, Major, because we don’t know each other that well.

I mean, we did some spin up training, some pre deployment training together and all that kind of stuff. But this is still a new relationship. [00:13:00] So he’s a little nervous. He doesn’t know how I’m going to react to that. And I just kind of smiled and I was like, well, son, I said, just think about this. I said, do you have the letter that authorizes those on the signature card to pull supplies for my unit?

He goes, yes, sir. I said, why don’t you go get that? So he goes, gets the letter. I said, who signed that letter? And so he looks at the signature, looks at my name tag. And he’s like, yes, sir. Right away. It just probably the fastest any supplies have ever been loaded in the history of Army logistics. But, and, but anyway, when we walk down with Sergeant Major, Sergeant Major, he goes to that.

He goes, boss, he goes, I just got to thank you. And I’m like, for what? He goes, you don’t know how many people would have just stood there and ripped that young man up, one down the side of the other until they got what they wanted. I said, well Sergeant Major, he was just doing his job. I was just helping him come to the right conclusion. Whether it’s just a different culture, difference in upbringing, difference in everything, and it’s just an example of the diversity that you, you know, that you come across [00:14:00] when, you know, when you’re in the military. And so I think that that sets us up post military to be, you know, You know, thrust it into a corporate environment where maybe they go a little over the top, you know, on some of these things, but at least, you know, we’re well embedded and we know how to interact with different walks of life.

And I think there’s so many things that help prepare us for post military career that we don’t even think about until we take time to sit back and say, Oh, you know what? That may have been a nugget I pulled from. This particular deployment or, you know, or this tool or whatever.

Scott DeLuzio: Right, right. Let’s fast forward a little bit. Um, so after your career, uh, you know, transitioning out, that’s something that we all deal with at one point or other, uh, no matter how long you stay in the military, um, transfer out into the civilian world, um, you know, Finding a new career and, you know, new, new things to do with yourself.

Um, [00:15:00] how did that transition look like for you? How did, how did you navigate that? Um, getting out of the military?

Neil Mullaney: Once again, I wish I could say that it was very thought out and planned. I would like to say there was a whole lot of luck involved. Because I didn’t. I mean, I ended up in healthcare. I knew nothing about healthcare. What I did, though, is that I sat back and decided, okay, You know, I still wanted to serve in some capacity.

Um, I was very fortunate in my military career that I was in a, uh, at the unit level, uh, you know, my entire, my last assignment, when I came back from Afghanistan, they were moving me to a staff job and that’s when I decided to retire. So I avoided the staff until the very end. And then I only lasted there for a year.

And I was like, this isn’t me. But anyway, the point being is that during that time, you When, you know, I was no longer a commander and I was in the staff row, uh, and I started thinking about retirement. It’s like, well, what is it that I want to do? I mean, I had such a diverse [00:16:00] background in the military.

There was nothing that really just like said, this is just what I really want to do. I thought more to myself, well, I’m capable of doing just about anything if someone’s willing to give me the opportunity. So I focused more on. You know, where I wanted to go, which I wanted to be in my hometown and then what the opportunities were there and in Louisville, Kentucky, you know, it was a large healthcare industry.

There’s, you know, also some industries that aren’t as healthy, like, you know, we’ve got Papa John’s Pizza, you know, is headquartered in Louisville, Kentucky. So it really comes down to that decision. Do I want to help Papa sell more pizzas or do I want to help people achieve their best health? And so I target.

You know, as the company, but I didn’t know what to apply for. And I had no clue, you know, I was coming out, you know, I was used to being in the military as a, somewhat of a senior officer and, and, you know, and I was comfortable in that culture and that environment. I didn’t even know what that equated to on the outside.

You know, in my [00:17:00] mind, it equates to being a CEO of at least a mid sized company, because as a commander, I mean, you are, I mean, you’re, Probably even broader than a CEO with the amount of responsibility that you have. But I knew that, you know, the civilian sector probably didn’t see it that way.

Scott DeLuzio: sure.

Neil Mullaney: got lucky.

Uh, I applied for, you know, a job that I really didn’t even know what it was. Uh, the recruiter, this, which is unusual, uh, there was something that flagged in her mind that resonated with her. And so. At least I got an opportunity to talk to somebody, and that’s all I wanted. Just give me an opportunity to talk to somebody, and then, you know, the rest will fall into place.

And so that’s what happened, but fast forward, you know, my first day on the job, uh, you know, it’s not like going into the military where they send you off to training and they train you, you know, to where now when you’re finished with your training, you’re equipped to at least perform at this level, you know, of the job that you’re required to do.

That didn’t [00:18:00] happen there. Matter of fact, for the first six months, my boss never even had a one on one with me. I was going to her asking, you know, what are your expectations? You know, what are the roles, responsibilities? How are you going to measure my performance? And it’s like, I was speaking a foreign language, you know?

Um, So my transition was very rough. If it wasn’t for one individual, and, and that’s why one of the things that I would, you know, implore any veteran transitioning, the transition isn’t over when you get the job. It’s really just beginning. There’s a lot of hard work to get that job, but the transition really just starts when you’re stepping your foot into that new environment.

So find yourself a mentor, and then after you’ve found that mentor, you find someone to be a mentee, you know, you mentor someone. Well, one guy who happened to be, uh, you know, the chief of staff for this business segment just came to me. And I guess he knew enough about the military, knew enough about, you know, maybe my background.

And he just came to me and he said, Neil, he goes, [00:19:00] I know you’re struggling. And I just smiled at, you know, at Eddie goes, I can see it. He goes, all I’m going to do, he goes, you have value. You have, you know, the abilities that we need. I just want to let you know, there’s going to be some changes coming. I’m just going to ask you to stick it out just a few more months and you’ll see.

You know, the things are changing and to his credit, that’s what happened because how he knew, I mean, I literally was going home in the evening, talking with my wife, saying, you know what, I’m just cut out for the civilian sector, maybe I need to go find a government job somewhere or something, which I don’t want it to do.

Um, I didn’t want to be that stereotype of going from, you know, military and then right into, you know, uh, uh, You know, uh, a federal GS position or something, uh, and it worked out and it did, and it turned out the, the organization needed the leadership more than they needed healthcare, you know, expertise, you know, I could learn [00:20:00] enough about healthcare, but you know, the leadership came from 24 years of being in military and, and, and progressively increasing leadership roles that I was able to bring some benefit to the organization.

Scott DeLuzio: know, in, in a way, uh, you know, as I’m hearing your story, um, I’m thinking to myself that here, here we had a Colonel coming out of the Air Force who is talking about a rocky transition, a, you know, not maybe the, the smoothest transition story that you ever could have heard of. Um, And you hear the, these types of stories from all sorts of guys, from any, any rank from, you know, E1 all the way up, you know, I’ve even had, uh, generals on this show who have had similar stories.

And in a way it’s sort of refreshing. Cause it’s like, Oh, it’s not just me, you know, it’s, it’s not, it’s, it’s everybody. I mean, people [00:21:00] who had it all lined up for him in the military, where, where everything was, seemed like things were smooth sailing, things were, were going well, they take off that uniform and all of a sudden they’re just like everybody else and they kind of figure out what do I want to do when I grow up?

That type of thing. Right.

Neil Mullaney: You don’t even know, you don’t even know what your options are, right? I mean, I had no clue. I had no clue about the business, you know, but I get in there and I knew, you know, the mission of business because they were, you know, uh, it was Humana and it was their, their military business segment, which ran the trucker contract.

And we also ran, you know, 30 some odd VA clinics and stuff. So I believed in what they were doing because their job was to ensure You know, that our troops remain healthy and retirees and their families and all that kind of stuff. So it’s something I could get behind and work my way through, uh, but it wasn’t easy.

And, and I’ll tell you that, you know, um, it’s incumbent on us as the veterans [00:22:00] transitioning to do the legwork, to be able to transcribe, to transfer, you know, what we did in the military in a language that the civilian sector can understand. Because they’re not going to take the time to understand our jargon.

You know, so we really do have to take the time, help each other out and, you know, in order to, to get that resume or that CV to resonate with somebody. And it took me about six months to do that. Uh, I mean, there was a lot of trial and error. And then finally, when I felt like I got it right, you know, boom, that’s when I got the hit and was able to then put in my retirement paperwork and go ahead and make the move.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And sometimes that we get so stuck in the military with some of the jargon and the acronyms that we use and the, all the language, it’s a different language that you’re, you’re talking when you’re in the military, but when you translate that to the civilian world, you’re right, people, unless they have a military background, um, you know, if you’re going to, [00:23:00] you know, apply for a defense contractor or, or some company like that, that Pretty good understanding of a military, uh, you know, language and terminology and stuff like that, they’ll be able to maybe translate it, but your typical civilian job is they’re not, like you said, they’re not going to take the time to try to understand that.

It’s just going to be a bunch of words that don’t make a whole lot of sense to them and not to, not to say that those experiences are not. valuable. It’s just, you have to do the legwork of translating it for them. So

Neil Mullaney: I mean, the experiences are absolutely valuable and, and if anything, you know, cause what I, what I, I tell, you know, whenever I’m having the opportunity to help troops that are transitioning and, you know, we’re looking to transition, you know, that’s what I tell them. I said, you’re, everything you have done demonstrates an ability or a capability that the civilian sector desperately needs.

You know, what I tell them is that you have to be able to [00:24:00] take the uniform off, you know, And, and really just immerse yourself into that new culture. Now, that doesn’t mean that you’re giving up on your legacy. You know, you’re not, because guess what? They’re going to understand, you know, that you serve because you’re going to show up with a better.

Work ethic, you know, uh, discipline working in, you know, uh, chaotic or, you know, ambiguous situations is your norm, you know, because if you’ve ever been into a combat zone, there’s nothing, you know, plans and plan until that first round is fired and then it’s thrown out the window. And, but, you know, we’re accustomed to that.

And so we can adapt and we can move on the fly. We like to plan things out. We want to minimize risk, but. It’s okay if things don’t go exactly as planned. We know we’ll figure it out and make it happen. And so I tell them to focus on that, you know, and then take their skills and try to translate it.

You’ve got to do some studying. You got to find out what the current buzzwords are, you know, in the corporate world in order to get that first look. And I firmly believe that, you [00:25:00] know, any veteran, you know, worth their weight, once they get a chance to talk somebody. Then they’re going to get hired because the person, you know, the individual, the hiring manager, whoever is going to see a quality that they need in their organization may not be a perfect fit for the task at hand.

But knowing that you’ve got somebody that is trainable, willing to do, you know, whatever it takes to further the mission, to me, that just goes along with

Scott DeLuzio: And you said a key word there, trainable, uh, because everybody going into the military, uh, for the, for the most part, like they have to go through some sort of training to just get into the military. Um, you know, whether it’s basic training and your, your AIT and you’re learning what your, your job is, um, you know, you don’t typically walk in off the street knowing, you know, how to.

Fly planes or maintain them or that, that type of stuff. Some people, maybe they had some civilian background on that, but that doesn’t tend to be the, the path that the majority of people go. [00:26:00] Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, so you still have to be able to do it the military way. You still have to be trained. Um, and so one thing that you got going for you, I don’t care who you are.

If you went through the military and you, you got through any level of, of Military training, you’re trainable. Um, and so that’s a huge asset to, to people. So like you, you didn’t, you didn’t know the healthcare industry, but you were able to learn it.

Neil Mullaney: Well, I think it’s, it’s true because when you’re coming out of the military, not only you’re trainable, but you’re a lifelong learner, right? Because guess what? Training didn’t stop, you know, at AIT, because then you had an environment. Of course, and then you had, you know, and then you had your, your professional military education.

And then, you know, so you’re, you’re constantly learning and growing. We’re in the civilian sector, you know, you make it a job as a, you know, as a call center rep, and you’re perfectly fine with that. And that’s the only thing you’ve ever done. Nothing wrong with that. But if an [00:27:00] organization is looking for someone that’s really going to help them move the needle, You know, and grow their organization.

You got to have somebody that’s a lifelong learner. That’s willing to continue to grow with them and to, you know, to challenge each other and be willing to take that. Yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: Can you talk to us now, let’s kind of fast forward a little bit more. Um, talk to us about Heroes on the Water and the mission of the organization, how it came to be and how you got involved with them.

Neil Mullaney: So heroes on the water is been around since 2007 and it was started by another air force retiree. Uh, he was a retired pilot and an American Airlines pilot. And just like everyone else, you know, during that season, you know, when we’re seeing a constant rise in veteran suicides and, and really just the, the decline in the overall wellbeing of our, you know, of our service members, you know, he happened to be an avid kayak fisherman and he goes, and he recognized how he felt.

After being out [00:28:00] on the water, being in nature, and doesn’t matter if you catch a fish, right? It’s just how many people have that. How many times you’ve just been out in nature and you come back and you’re like, man, I just feel so much better. Well, he recognized that. And so he started Heroes On The Water.

And, uh, it just, it, and for the first several years, he was funding it all just out of his own pocket. Just because he believed in it. So it started out in one small chapter and now it’s grown to where currently we have 55 chapters across 25 states, uh, 55 volunteer chapters. I’ll tell you a little bit more about the two different programs we have in a second, but I mean that the growth has just been phenomenal.

We have assisted over 60, 000 veterans, uh, over 16, 000 family members. Uh, we’ve opened it up to first responders too, uh, to where those numbers are starting to increase because, you know, we believe in. You know, and those that serve and, you know, and they serve every single day. And, and we know the trials and tribulations that they face as well.

Um, so yeah, it, [00:29:00] uh, started from one guy’s idea, uh, and, and then, you know, we have taken it further to where, like when I, when I came on board with them, I wanted to make sure that we are, what we’re doing is doing what we say it’s doing. And so we actually commissioned a study with a PhD behavioral scientist out of Texas State University to measure the efficacy of our programs.

And the results have just been phenomenal. So we look at, you know, stress management, personal efficacy, and relationships. And out of those three areas, you know, we’ve got several subcategories that we measure. And the lowest scoring one, uh, is like 90 percent effective in helping people, you know, deal with the day to day stresses in life.

And so it’s just, it’s just truly, and that’s when I really got excited about the organization. It’s like, okay, they’re taking this serious. They’re not just out. Throwing [00:30:00] people in plastic boats because it’s fun and feels good. They believe in the therapeutic value that mother nature has to offer and we’re measuring it to make sure that we’re making the right decisions and doing the right things because all we want to do is help.

We want to help our veterans and first responders and their families because we do believe healing is a family affair. And that’s why, you know, and we remove all the barriers. We want to make sure that those that are, you know, interacting with us and engaging with our chapters and all that, there’s not a single reason for them not to.

So it doesn’t cost them a thing. They don’t have to have their own equipment. They don’t even know how. I mean, we’ve got the people and the expertise there to teach them how to kayak, to teach them how to fish. And fishing is, you know, what we tell everybody, if you catch a fish, great. If you, if you don’t even, you know, put a line in the water, that’s okay, too.

Uh, real quick, we were just at an event just outside of Nashville, Tennessee, where this one was a first responder, primarily first responder [00:31:00] chapter. Um, but we did have a couple of veterans there, too. And so while they were out on the water, you know, we’re all there volunteering, getting things set up and taking care of them.

But while they’re out on the water, this park had a real nice two mile loop walking path. So I was just walking the path to get some exercise while they’re doing that. As I’m coming around the corner, there’s this little cove, tucked in some trees and all that. And one of the participants who seemed a little bit Odd, I say, or off, maybe, uh, when they showed up, I mean, they showed up to a water event wearing blue jeans and, you know, and, and so forth.

So I’m like, I wonder what this person has going on. Very, very quiet. Didn’t talk to anybody. Got out on the water. As I’m walking, I see him pulled into that cove and he just kind of kicked back. And so I just poked my head through the trees and said, Hey, everything okay? Yeah, I said, you’re just enjoying this, the tranquility.

He goes, yes, sir. And so I said, I’ll leave you to it. I just walk on. Well, when we get back, he was the most talkative guy ever. So he shows up, not [00:32:00] talking, you know, he spent some time in mother nature, out on the water and comes back and next thing you know, he’s engaged with the entire group and everybody’s swapping stories and, you know, and it really just brings that, Affinity back that maybe was lost when people took off the uniform and gives opportunity to discuss, they don’t even have to get into heavy stuff.

A lot of them do, but they don’t have to. It just lets them know that there’s like minded people right there with them and they’re there. And so they don’t have to do anything alone. And so it’s just truly remarkable to watch.

Scott DeLuzio: And so you mentioned the different chapters around the country, um, do they put on like regular events, uh, from time to time? How, how does, how do these chapters operate and what, what is it that they, uh, that they do?

Neil Mullaney: Yeah, so we actually have two different programs. So our volunteer program is just like a states. Those are the, that’s the 55 chapters that we have and they are volunteer led. What happens is we [00:33:00] either, if we see a geography that we think has a need, Then we could go in there and start searching for volunteers to build a local leadership team in order to get a chapter up, or more often than not, on our website at heroesonthewater.

org, there’s an opportunity for someone to say, I’d like to start a chapter. And so we’ll get several, you know, inquiries, you know, probably, you know, anywhere from. You know, 10 to 15 a month, uh, people, you know, want to inquire about what does it take to start a chapter? What’s that mean? And so our director of volunteer programs will meet with them and our team and, you know, and kind of walk them through it.

And if it’s a good fit, then we start the chapter up. They typically, depending on where they’re at, you know, the season could be really short, you know, because if they’re up in the northeast, You know, they’re not out there fishing, you know, in February. Uh, or it could be down in South Florida where they’re pretty much going year round.

Uh, but typically they do, uh, our, our chapters average about six events, [00:34:00] you know, during the season. Uh, but then we have chapters that are out there doing it every, you know, an event a month. And, and, and if they have a longer season, then they may do 12, 13 events a year. Now our therapeutic chapters are slightly different, uh, actually they’re vastly different.

We still do the same thing, kayak fishing, but we are partnered directly with the DOD and the VA for their in resident treatment programs. Uh, so, you know, when we get, you know, if there’s a soldier, you know, in a, a soldier recovery unit or, or something like that, that’s, you know, going through some kind of treatment, uh, it could be there for nine weeks, well, once a week, part of their therapy is getting out on the water with our team.

And that’s it. Yeah. And so, and that’s just really cool. And the feedback we have from that is just phenomenal. And one of the things we started now is because, you know, there’s so many areas that the seasons are short, that’s we’re doing some off water skills training too, just to keep them engaged, to keep them, you know, to [00:35:00] bring those people still together, may not be on the water, but they’re learning.

And How to build a ride, how to, you know, to tie their own flies, how to, you know, do these different things that, uh, you know, then they can go off. And, you know, what happens usually is, you know, people come out to a few events and next thing you know, they bought their own kayak and their own tackle and all that kind of stuff.

So we ought to get some kickbacks is what I think.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, I mean, you could be, you know, set up a, set up a shop there and you can start selling the kayaks and the reels and all the other equipment that goes with it,

Neil Mullaney: We do have great partners. I mean, they, uh, you know, there’s several of the kayak manufacturers that treat us well. They give us some pretty decent discounts on our equipment and really allow us to do what we’re able to do. Because, you know, we couldn’t get out there with the prices of some of those sport fishing kayaks.

Uh, you know, it just would be cost prohibitive.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, that, that’s true. So, um, [00:36:00] so, so you have two, two separate things, one volunteer led and one, the, the therapeutic, uh, side of things where, where people go. To, uh, you know, during their recovery process, that’s, that’s part of the program is getting out on the water or, um, you know, like you said, you may have other skills classes and, and things like that, that, uh, they, they do, but that’s all incorporated as part of the therapeutic process.

Um, the. Volunteer led side sounds like it’s more recreational. This is

Neil Mullaney: Yeah,

Scott DeLuzio: a fun camaraderie building, team building kind of thing like that.

Neil Mullaney: it’s almost because what happens is if you lead with therapy, you get nobody to show up, right? Because none of us want to admit that we need therapy,

Scott DeLuzio: right, right.

Neil Mullaney: but yeah, so it, but it is therapeutic and that’s what we wanted to measure. And that’s why we wanted to do that study is because yeah, it’s fun or whatever, but we wanted to highlight the fact because there’s, [00:37:00] There’s so many gaps in traditional medicine, especially when it becomes a behavior of health and your overall mental well being.

And so by doing these studies, I mean, this study is peer reviewed, published, all of that, uh, to where we’re getting a lot more credibility, uh, for what recreational therapies bring to the table. And, and that’s, and that’s key. And that will open it up more because what we would love is when we’re working with somebody different.

VAs, you know how, you know the old saying, you’ve been in one VA, you’ve seen one VA, you’ve seen one VA. What I would love to see is, you know, at the federal level, at the national level, the VA recognize this and say, wow, you know, what they’re doing is good. We want this everywhere, you know, that’s what would be nice because what we’re doing is we’re doing great work.

But we’re having to go out and sell our free services to each individual VA. And, you know, and, and so by doing things like this study and capturing the responses from our participants and [00:38:00] sharing that, we’re, we’re hoping that we’ll kind of pull the curtain back on the positive impact that recreational therapies have.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Uh, I, I hope so too. And you would, you would hope, um, and I know this doesn’t always happen, but you would hope that, uh, you know, one hand would be able to talk to the other when in situations like that, where they, they might be like, Hey, why doesn’t everyone do this? Cause it’s actually working. Um, that, that would be great.

Um, but. I could see, you know, some reluctance maybe on some of the potential participants from trying something, um, you know, like a recreational type therapy that, uh, they, maybe they haven’t participated in any of this before. Um, they’ve never, they’ve never gone fishing. They’ve never been out fishing.

You know, on the water like that, um, you know, maybe folks from, from the city or, or something like that, but just the, the, the water is not readily available. So, um, or, uh, where I live in Arizona, where even the, the rivers [00:39:00] that they, they, they label on the map, they, as a river, there’s no water in the river.

So it’s like, it’s so dry. So, um, you know, for folks who, who maybe are, uh, you know, maybe new to this type of stuff, um, What kind of support is there for them? And, and, you know, what kind of, basically, why should they give it a try? You know, what, what, what is, uh, you know, out there for them?

Neil Mullaney: I mean, it’s not going to cost them a dime, we’re even going to feed them. Uh, you know, we’ve got such great support from our local communities that, you know, very rarely do we have to spend a dime for the lunches we provide, you know, that there, we have so many different organizations that, that donate the food, find out what we’re doing.

They don’t have to, like I said, they don’t need any gear. They don’t need to have any skills whatsoever because the people that we have running these chapters. are extremely skilled in this, you know, they’ve been, they’ve been kayak anglers for years. Uh, they’ve worked in the industry. You know, we have very, you know, [00:40:00] on our, not all of our volunteers are veterans.

They’re just people that have a passion for veterans. Some of our best run chapters are led by civilians that You know, love kayak fishing, they understand what the benefits of it and they are patriotic and they want to help those that serve our communities and serve our nation in any way they can. So what I would tell people is, you know, what else in life have you tried that you have never done before?

And you were surprised how much you enjoyed it and how good it made you feel. And think about that and come out and give it a try because, you know, it’s, it may not be for you, but you know what? It’s not going to cost you a thing to find out.

Scott DeLuzio: Well, and that’s why I like highlighting organizations like yours on this show. And we have had all sorts of different recreational or just call it alternative type therapies that folks are using. Um, everything. We, you know, people tend to have heard of equestrian type [00:41:00] therapy and things like that, a lot of outdoor recreational type stuff.

Um, we even had people who offered surfing as a form of therapy and, you know, the also, so I guess the reason why I’m saying this is because Everybody’s going to be different. If some people are going to go out there, they’re going to try it and they’re going to, they’re going to fall in love with it. And they’re, they’re going to be like this.

I found the thing that that’s going to work for me and other people are going to go out there. They’re going to try it. And they’re like, you know what, this, this was a swing and a miss and it didn’t quite hit the mark for me. But, um, But the whole point is keep trying something because while, while maybe this one thing that you tried isn’t the right fit for you, the next thing that you try might be.

So get out there and keep trying. That’s why I like to have folks like you on the show to talk about different types of therapies that are available and different, different things that people can try so that they, they actually do get out and. Do something, um, and I, I think just like in, [00:42:00] in combat, if you’re sitting there and you know, things aren’t going quite according to plan and you start taking fire from a place that was unexpected, not going to just sit there and let it happen.

Neil Mullaney: Yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: going to do something and it may not be the right thing,

Neil Mullaney: to retain. So

Scott DeLuzio: forget who said this, but I, I, the, the quote, and I, I may butcher it. I’m going to, I’m going to give it a shot anyways, but the best thing to do is the right thing. The second best thing to do is the wrong thing. And the worst thing to do is nothing. And,

Neil Mullaney: absolutely.

Scott DeLuzio: it’s like, just keep, keep trying something, you know, you might have done.

The wrong thing, um, wrong in the sense that maybe it didn’t, wasn’t a good fit for you, but it doesn’t really matter. There’s so many other things out there. Go try something else. At least you tried and you can check that thing off your list and say, okay, well, I’ll, I’ll file that one away. I won’t, I won’t.

Spend any more time on that, but I’ll, [00:43:00] I’ll move on to that next thing. You know,

Neil Mullaney: Well, I think that one of the cool things, you know, about the veteran organizations You know, like us and others is that we all recognize that we don’t have to be the end all, right? We don’t have everything. And so I’ll give you an example. There’s another organization called Regimen and it is a, uh, it’s a gaming organization for veterans.

Well, guess what? That’s all online. And so their footprint is nationwide was 60, 000, you know, plus veterans, you know, as part of their community. When they reached out to us, it’s like, you know what? We know the benefits of what we do, but we also know the benefits of not having them sit in front of the computer all day, you know, and so they said, is there a way for us to partner?

To where, you know, we can get them out and doing other things instead of sitting in front of a game. And I’m like, I love it, you know, because yes, what they do absolutely has value, but I can also see. That [00:44:00] just sitting there gaming all day is not for their best physical or mental well being. And, you know, you’ve got to have, you have got to have a good myriad of options and opportunities to, you know, to really, to achieve your best health.

And, and that’s what I love is that we’re not looking to be the end all. We have what we do and we do it really well. We do it safely. Uh, and, and we’ve got the expertise and, you know, at each of the chapters to help those that have no skills in it. Uh, but at the same time, if you, if you want to go hunting, you know, we’re not going to take you hunting, but guess what?

My personal Rolodex, I’ve got other, you know, organizations that I can call up the executive director for and say, Hey, I’ve got a group that wants to go hunting, you know, can I connect them? And, and so it’s, it’s really just helping people find what they need in order to achieve their best health.

Scott DeLuzio: yeah. And to your point, it doesn’t necessarily have to be any, just one thing that, that does that [00:45:00] for you. And especially in places like you were talking about, like in the Northeast, you’re not, you’re not going to be going fishing. Uh, I’m, I’m originally from Connecticut, so I’m familiar with what you’re talking about.

You know, you’re not going to go fishing in, in February. Um, it’s just, it’s too cold and all the, the ponds are iced over and, uh, Doug. There’s not much for you there, you know, you could go ice fishing, I suppose, but sometimes it,

Neil Mullaney: My wife is from Northern Minnesota and she goes, you go ice fishing. I was like, no, I don’t.

Scott DeLuzio: You know, so, so I suppose you, you could do something like that, but there might be something else that you want to do, uh, in the, the off season, uh, if you will. And, and there’s, you know, like you said, that, that gaming community might be your thing, uh, might not be, you might hate gaming. so much for joining me today, and I’ll see you next time.

You’re [00:46:00] I out there for other, um, other organizations, um, and be open to trying new things and seeing what might work if, if I guess, put it this way, if you’re, uh, in a spot where whatever you’re doing now is not working for you. You got nothing to lose, right? Try something else.

Neil Mullaney: I mean, that’s the definition of an idiot, right?

Scott DeLuzio: Right, right. Yeah. You don’t want to keep doing that. So, um, so I know you mentioned there’s some costs involved and there’s some, uh, different, different things that you guys are, uh, you know, funding to kind of help, uh, get these programs going. Um, where can people go if they want to either volunteer or, uh, don’t make a donation, whether it’s financial or, um, uh, you, you mentioned like some, some lunches and things like that.

Get Donated, uh, where can people go to find out more information about how to, uh, help support the organization?

Neil Mullaney: Yeah. It’s just www. heroesonthewater. [00:47:00] org and, uh, in there, you know, on, on, up on the top, there’s, you know, ways to, to get involved and, uh, you know, people are, the way I look at it, you know, there’s three real ways to help, help us out. You know, one is advocacy because we do not want someone that could benefit from what we do not know about us.

Right. So that’s why I appreciate you taking, you know, inviting us to be on, on your show today, uh, is because this is important to get the word out, you know, and the second is volunteering, you know, either to volunteer to stand up a chapter in your area if we don’t have one, or if we have a chapter in your area, then, you know, help, help the leadership team there and volunteer.

And then third, of course, everything that we do does cost money. And, uh, so you can go give online right at our website, be part of our honor circle, uh, you know, and, and give you the exact details. You know, you want to give, you know, 10 bucks, well, guess what? 10 bucks. You just, you just pay for somebody’s lunch that day.

If you want to give 25 bucks, [00:48:00] you know, over the course of the year. You know, or the life cycle of a kayak, you know, I mean, you know, kayaks life cycle is about seven years. Well, guess what? You get 25 bucks a month. You just covered the life cycle, you know, for a kayak for a chapter. So there’s so many different ways, uh, you know, that’s the hardest part is because we believe in what we do, but none of us like asking for money.

Uh, you know, we just say, hey, I’ll tell you all about. You know, what we do and the impact of it and all that kind of stuff. And then, you know, you just follow your heart, um, because it is, that’s, that’s nobody on the team. We’re, we’re horrible fundraisers, even though we do a pretty good job at it. It’s just, that’s the, uh, that’s the bad part of a non profit is that you can’t, you can’t do what you do because you’re not selling anything, you know, so you just gotta rely on the philanthropic, uh, you know, generosity of either corporations or individuals.

Scott DeLuzio: Well, that’s why I’m here. So I’m going to do it for you. So if you’re listening to this, head on over to the website, which I’ll have a link to in the [00:49:00] show notes and, uh, you know, find, find a way to donate, make those donations and, and help out the organization. So, um, so go, go and do that. You see, look at that.

You don’t even have to do it. I’ll do it for you.

Neil Mullaney: Appreciate it, Scott. We might have to bring you on the team. There

Scott DeLuzio: go. You know what? This was just really like a job interview and I was just like not telling you about it.

Neil Mullaney: are the best ones. We can just have a conversation.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Right. Uh, well, thank you so much for taking the time to come on and sharing about the organization, sharing a little bit about your background and, um, you know, sharing about what, what you guys do.

Um, I think, um, you know, the, the stuff that we talked about as far as the transition from military to civilian life was definitely relatable to, I think, to a lot of people. Um. And the work that you guys are doing with Heroes on the Water, um, you know, towards, you know, the overall wellbeing of veterans, first responders, their families is, is really great.

And I’m encouraging folks who are out there [00:50:00] to get involved, whether it’s, um, you know, volunteering, if that’s, that’s something that you want to do or, or as a participant. Um, to, uh, get out there on the water and, and actually, uh, see the benefits of, of getting out there and doing that. Um, you know, I think there’s a lot of value there.

Um, you know, even, even for the volunteers, um, volunteering, uh, feels good too. And so if you can get out there and, and help folks out and, uh, you know, make a difference in somebody else’s life, sometimes that, that is, uh, you know, there’s a lot of value in that. Right. So, um, so. So thank you for again taking the time to come on and for everything that you guys are doing.

I really do appreciate it.

Neil Mullaney: I appreciate it, Scott. Thank you very much.

Scott DeLuzio: Thanks for listening to the Drive On Podcast. If you want to support the show, please check out Scott’s book, Surviving Son on Amazon. All of the sales from that book go directly back into this podcast and work to help veterans in need. You can also follow the Drive On Podcast on [00:51:00] Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, YouTube, and wherever you listen to podcasts.