Episode 451 Tom Equels Discovering Peace in The Horseman’s Tale Transcript

This transcript is from episode 451 with guest Tom Equels.

[00:00:00]

Scott DeLuzio: Hey everyone. Welcome back to Drive On. I’m your host, Scott DeLuzio. And today my guest is Tom Equels. Tom served as a combat pilot in Vietnam. He’s an author and a horse whisperer. Tom’s debut novel, The Horseman’s Tale, isn’t just another war story. For equestrian adventure, it serves as a roadmap for anyone looking to break free from the corrals of their past and race towards a horizon of hope.

And we’re going to talk about the book and we’re going to talk a little bit about Tom’s background in just a minute. But first, uh, Tom, I’m really glad to have you here. Welcome to the show.

Tom Equels: Well, thank you very much, Scott. I’m honored to be here. You do a great job.

Scott DeLuzio: Thanks. Absolutely. And, uh, I, um, I’m grateful to have you here as well. Um. You know, anytime I have, uh, you know, any kind of interactions with Vietnam, uh, Arab veterans, I always want to, uh, you know, welcome them home because you guys did not get the proper welcome when you guys, uh, when you guys came home.

So, uh, first off, welcome home. [00:01:00] And, um, and, uh, you know, I, I want to kind of dive into a little bit of your experiences just a bit here. Um, can you tell us about your, your time in, uh, Vietnam, uh, you know, kind of. Um, what you did there and, and how that’s later on influenced the work that you’re, you’re doing now.

Tom Equels: Sure. I’d be happy to. Um, I, I’m probably one of the youngest Vietnam veterans that, that you’re going to meet because, um, I was 19 years old when I was in Vietnam and that was in for the, in 1972 and early 1973. Which is when, uh, all the American troops were pulled out of Vietnam. Uh, January, there was a treaty January 23rd, I think of 1973.

And within a month or two, everybody was gone. And my, my, uh, my return home date, uh, you know, was in January anyway. So it worked out, [00:02:00] but, uh, um, I went into, uh, the army, uh, I was a senior in high school. And a group of, uh, seniors, uh, uh, young men were asked to attend a meeting where three army aviators did a presentation about the ability to go right from high school into flight school, become, uh, uh, uh, Uh, what’s called a warrant officer pilot and, uh, uh, you know, learn how to fly.

And it was, it was initially focused on helicopters. And, and I think it’s because the Vietnam war was a war where there was a rapid transition into an air mobile strategy where the helicopter is one of the primary. Tools of moving troops around and providing close air support, things like that. So I went to flight school right out of high school.[00:03:00]

That was a little bit over a year program because we had to train as infantry soldiers first. I think that was a motivational thing for flight school because if you flunked out of flight school, they like gave you an M 16 and a rucksack and sent you immediately to Vietnam. As an infantry soldier. So, uh, uh, when I got out of flight school, I was at the top of my flight school class, so, uh, the, I think it was the top five, uh, students in the class were given the option to, instead of flying UEs, which were the utility helicopter used in Vietnam, Uh, to transition into either Cobra, uh, the Cobra, which is a, uh, uh, uh, helicopter gunship, uh, uh, primarily used for close air support, things like that.

Um, or the Chinook, which is a big utility helicopter, uh, or the Sikorsky Flying Crane. I mean, these were all very sophisticated, big heli everybody wanted to fly [00:04:00] these things and it was sort of an incentive for the students. And, and, uh, You know, I, I picked the Cobra, uh, because when I was a little boy, I, I dreamed of being able to fly a P 51 Mustangs and, you know, this was right after World War II and, and, uh, but by the time I was old enough to do anything about it, the P 51 was long gone because we transitioned into the jet age.

But the Cobra was sort of like the, uh, the modern day at that time equivalent of, of that kind of a fighter aircraft. And uh, and also, uh, I, it occurred to me if I was going to be in combat, being able to shoot back was very important. And maybe the most important consideration is the Cobra was the only one of all those helicopters that was air conditioned. I’d heard Vietnam was hot. I had no idea how hot it was, but it was very good. There were times it was very hot and humid, so that air conditioner really came in handy.[00:05:00]

Scott DeLuzio: That, that is interesting. And the, the way the mind of a, you know, uh, late teens, uh, you know, aged, uh, type, type of person, um, is, I want to be able to shoot back. Someone’s shooting at me. I want to shoot back. Okay. That, that definitely checks out. I think that that sanity check passes. Um, and I’m going to someplace that’s hotter than hell and I’m, I’m going to want to have some air conditioning to come along with me, uh, for the ride.

When, when someone’s shooting at me, I’m probably going to be sweating anyway. So yes, absolutely. We want some air conditioning, right?

Tom Equels: It sounds superficial, but it was, it turned out to be, you know, a very important consideration.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, but I mean, both of those considerations, I think are valid. Um, I would not take anything away from you from, uh, you know, making those, those kinds of, uh, you know, consideration or taking those things into consideration when, uh, choosing which aircraft.

Tom Equels: from the, the, uh, I was sent to, it’s, uh, sort of the Army’s [00:06:00] version of Top Gun. It’s called, it was called Cobra Hall. And I spent, I think about two months there. And, uh, from there I went to Vietnam and was assigned to the 48th Assault Helicopter Company. Um, as a, I was like a junior co pilot, you know, but, uh, um, I served with them for several months and, uh, then, uh, as, as the war was winding down, that unit came, uh, to Germany, I think, uh, uh, left Vietnam, went to Germany, uh, but I stayed on and, and spent a few more months with, uh, Air Cavalry Troop, which is.

Um, which is very interesting, you know, flying, uh, the killer part of 100 killer teams. Um, and, uh, you, the, uh, you’ve probably seen the, the, the movie, uh, I think it’s We Were Soldiers, We Were [00:07:00] Once Soldiers, the, about the Adrang battle and that was the first air cavalry. That was one of the first uses of the air cavalry concept, you know, the ability to, you know, go into these areas behind enemy lines.

You know, drop troops in and, you know, take positions that you wouldn’t be able to do if you had to travel by land.

Scott DeLuzio: Well, and that’s, you know, interesting too, because, you know, You know, like you said, that’s, that’s like one of the first uses of this, um, you know, method of troop movement and, and things like that, where, um, you know, you get to be kind of part of military history in that, that respect, you know, and that, that’s, that’s pretty cool too.

Tom Equels: Yeah, some of the battles that we fought in 1972 are recorded as a part of military history, especially the Spring Offensive, which started, also called the Easter Offensive, the very first part of April of 1972. And I flew through that [00:08:00] and I got my first distinguished flying cross during that period. Um, and, uh, flew overall that year, I flew about 300 combat missions, um, and, uh, which to me felt like a lot, you know, you know, the, the, the problem with flying Cobras.

was that usually when you went someplace, it was, you know, because somebody was being shot at and you’re trying to assist them or to shoot something. But in either event, you know, you knew that when you went on the mission, you were going to get shot at. So, you know, there was a tension there that would, was not really the same for somebody that’s transporting VIPs, you know, from one place to another.

There are a lot of helicopter functions that are. Relatively mundane, but, uh, Cobras were not, you know, it was, there was always some excitement during the course of a day.

Scott DeLuzio: Well, I think that maybe go, oh, go ahead. Yeah. Yeah, no, I was just going to say, I [00:09:00] think that also speaks to the mind of a late teenager, uh, you know, looking for the, for a little bit of excitement, uh, as well is, um, you know, but I’m sure after that first dose of excitement, um, the novelty of it kind of wore off real

Tom Equels: Well, trust me. You know, I, uh, I went in there thinking that it was going to be a lot like these post World War II, uh, aviator hero movies with John Wayne and this and that and the other thing, but there was a point when I thought to myself, Oh, what did I get myself into here? I mean, it was like very dangerous and.

And, uh, you know, people are getting shot and wounded and killed. And, you know, just, uh, you know, at some point the reality of all that, uh, settles in, I mean, you have to sort of suck it up and do your best, but it’s, it, uh, uh, it’s a different kind of excitement from what you may be anticipated.

Scott DeLuzio: That’s right.

Tom Equels: So anyway, it, uh, uh, in [00:10:00] 1973, um, as I mentioned, that’s when that treaty was signed, pulling all the troops out of Vietnam.

So there was a big reshuffling, uh, and, and most, uh, pilots were, um, uh, were let go, you know, they can go to the reserves of the national guard or home. Uh, when you, when you went through flight school, you had a six year commitment. So a lot of people that went to flight school were, were committed for an extended period of time, uh, but those commitments were released, uh, but I was asked to stay on, um, and, uh, and I did.

I, I was obligated to stay on anyway because I had a six year obligation, but, you know, I, uh, was asked to be an instructor pilot at the Army Aviation Center, uh, which I, which I agreed to do and, uh, and that was very good for me. I mean, my, my thought process then was. I had this feeling that, [00:11:00] uh, coming back from Vietnam, I wasn’t really ready for civilian life.

Um, you know, my, my mindset and everything were, were, uh, you know, probably a little bit hair trigger and, and, uh, you know, you’re, you know, what you’re thinking about as you, you know, work to survive in a, you know, daily combat situation, you know, it doesn’t always work well on the streets and there’s the, and the army didn’t really provide any transition.

And it’s like, you know. You know, you show up and you’re with your friends, you know, and then you’re unemployed too, so, um, uh, but, uh, I used that opportunity, uh, to be in an environment that was in a structure that I understood and was comfortable with, which allowed me four years or so to decompress and while serving as an instructor pilot and a TRADOC product project officer, I’m I also went and got my bachelor’s degree and my master’s [00:12:00] degree at a university.

It was near the Fort, uh, uh, Troy university. And they actually set up a campus on the Aviation Center. So it was very easy for me, uh, to, to take pretty much a full academic load at night,

Scott DeLuzio: Well, and that is certainly good too, because I have to imagine, uh, given your age coming out of Vietnam, um, and then transitioning into this instructor role, uh, you were probably on the younger side of, you know, of folks, um, you know, in that school, not just talking the, the, uh, the trainers, the, the faculty kind of, uh, you know, the, the instructors, um, as far as the students who you’re teaching, you’re probably much younger than, than some of them as well.

Right.

Tom Equels: that’s correct.

Scott DeLuzio: So, um, you know, having.

Tom Equels: and, and very often some of the, the students outranked me as well.

Scott DeLuzio: Right, right. [00:13:00] I could see that happening too.

Tom Equels: of the things about army pilots is, is that we, you know, and pretty much I never saw anything where it was a problem, you know, regardless of what your rank was, uh, if somebody was in charge, they were in charge of the aircraft, you know? So. You know, when I’m the instructor pilot, it could be a colonel in the aircraft and I’m a chief warrant officer too.

Uh, but, but if I say do something, he would do it, you know, and not to say that there might not be a discussion, you know, assuming, but if it’s urgent, especially, you know, you follow the instructions of the aircraft commander or the piloting commander,

Scott DeLuzio: And I think that makes sense too, when you have somebody who is more experienced in something, especially as dangerous as aviation can be, if you’re, if you’re flying up in the air, and Someone who’s more experienced than you tells you to do something. You’re not going to stop and question it. You’re going to just [00:14:00] do it.

Right. You don’t want to

Tom Equels: and, uh, the warrant officer ranks, uh, they’re, Pay, you know, tracked the commissioned officer ranks, um, uh, but warrant officers are technical specialist officers. And, and that’s why a lot of pilots were, you know, you were specialized as a pilot. So you might be, uh, uh, being paid the same as a lieutenant, as a young warrant officer.

Um, and the lieutenant, uh, technically outranks you, but, but at some point as you, uh, move, especially as you move up and gain seniority. Your expertise is the reason why you’re there, so people defer to that often, and for example, um, the Army Aviation Center is named after, uh, uh, Chief Warrant Officer 5, uh, uh, Michael Novosel.

Uh, he, uh, was, uh, Pilot in [00:15:00] Vietnam, uh, received a congressional medal of honor. Uh, but, uh, you know, so the, you know, those technical officers, technical officers are given a lot of respect and, and, uh, deference in their field.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, for sure. And, and they, they should, because, you know, they are, like you said, they’re the experts in that field. And, um, you know, at that point rank doesn’t matter as much when, when you’re coming down to that expertise, you, you, you have to rely on that expertise versus experience or, you know, time in the service or that type of thing.

Um,

Tom Equels: also usually in aviation companies and, and, uh, and instructor pilot type situations, um, you know, people get to know who you are and work with you and, So, you know, your expertise also is a foundation for the, for the respect. Your actual expertise is a foundation for the respect. Not, you know, not just, uh, because you have a set of wings on your chest.

Scott DeLuzio: [00:16:00] Right, right. Exactly. Um, I want to kind of fast forward a little bit here, uh, kind of in the, the conversation. And I want to talk a little bit about, uh, your, your book. I mentioned in the intro that the book, the, the Horseman’s Tale, which I have a copy here. Thank you again for, uh, sending me a copy of this book, but the, the Horseman’s Tale, um, it’s a, it’s a fiction, uh, book, but it, But it’s, uh, grounded in some reality.

It’s not a hundred percent, uh, made up, uh, you know, a false fiction narrative or anything. There’s some real life scenarios that, that take place in the book. Um, but it’s not, you know, it’s not your story necessarily. It’s, you know, it is a fictional story, but the book talks about. The impact of PTSD, especially on this, the main character of the book, uh, Jay, can you, can you tell us a little bit about, um, you know, the book and, and kind of how you kind of wove in some of the, uh, the things from, from, [00:17:00] um, you know, kind of real life into, uh, the, the story.

Uh

Tom Equels: be happy to. And, um, and just to give a little bit of a background, uh, my, uh, my, uh, graduate and postgraduate work was heavily, uh, uh, laden with, uh, courses in advanced psychology and. different psychological, um, uh, you know, modes of therapy. So I’m very familiar with a lot of that. And, uh, uh, at one point thought I might be a professor in, in that area.

And I was specializing in, uh, individual offender rehabilitation, but then I realized, You know that, uh, I also, uh, had a very strong drive to, uh, go to law school because I, uh, uh, you know, wanted to, uh, uh, be a lawyer and, and, uh, uh, I took that, took that course ultimately, uh, and left some of the, the, uh, psychological [00:18:00] expertise on the table.

So, so I, I put, I put a lot of that education to good use in this book. Uh, but this book, this book is, uh, based on a fictional premise. Of course, um, you know, I’ve had horses for all my life and, and, uh, have a horse farm, um, here in Ocala for many, many years. Uh, and, uh, a lot of expertise in show horses and race horses.

So, so I took the liberty. I’ve had some great horses over the years. You know, friends of mine will say, Oh, I know that horse, you know, and, and, uh, there, there are, you know, fictional versions of horses that I’ve actually had. And, and I did that for fun. And, uh, but the, the story itself is fictional, but like any good story, it’s based on truths, some universal truths.

And some truths that I experienced during my year in [00:19:00] combat, you know, and in the course of 300 combat missions, you learn a lot about yourself, you learn a lot about others, you know, and, and, uh, you know, the, the way people feel in close combat, uh, whether you’re a, you’re a Marine, uh, you know, on the ground or, uh, pilot in the air, you know, you know, those, those emotional, uh, aspects.

Are very much the same. And you, you also have the opportunity to see how they affect other people. You know, if you’re observing your friends and, and, you know, it can, it can have tremendous impacts on people. Psychologically, and that’s where the PTSD comes from. So, I was, uh, uh, I had a number of horror stories that I’d written over the years.

Short stories that were actually true stories. And, uh, you know, I’d been asked to, you know, you should put those into a novel. I just never really had an idea how to do [00:20:00] that. But I was sitting, uh, alone one evening. After work in my recliner watching the state of hate on CNN, which was about, uh, the resurgence of, uh, you know, white supremacist movements like the Ku Klux Klan and the American Nazis.

And, and I remembered from when I was young, uh, the tremendous, uh, issues that were at play in the 1960s when the schools in Florida were desegregated. And there was a lot of violence and, and so forth. And, and, and so I was watching it and it had me on edge a little bit because, you know, Florida has changed so much since the civil rights act and opening up the society.

And in fact, you know, like the, the town, uh, where I’m at Ocala, uh, has changed dramatically. We’re one of the fastest growing cities in the country, you know, hundreds of thousands of people, all kinds of amenities. [00:21:00] You know, big communities of people from the Northeast and the Midwest that have come down, you know, for an active.

Post 55 year old retirement type scenario. So, so, you know, I’ve seen the changes and their changes for the better. And so I, you know, I, you know, like I said, I was a little bit on edge because I think myself, you know, how can people want to go back to, you know, you know, like lynching people and firebombing churches.

And I mean, there’s just a lot of stuff going on, right. There was bad stuff. And, and then this, this Camp Lejeune commercial comes on. Uh, it’s a law firm commercial where the lawyers have a, uh, sort of a talking head saying, you know, if you were stationed at Camp Lejeune and, and you suffer, you or anybody in your family suffered any of these things, You know, you have this right to file a claim.

And even though I’m not a Marine and hadn’t been to Camp Lejeune, a light bulb went on in my head that this was an [00:22:00] opportunity to take somebody, because as I mentioned before we started the show, one of the things I thought is, what would it be like? You’re sitting there watching this commercial and for the first time, you know that the, this water contamination had been covered up for decades and somebody in your family died because of it or.

had birth defects or, or you had some illness for years that you never knew why and it was directly related to that. I mean, you know, I thought you’d just explode. So that, I, you know, just like the character in the book, he, he sees this and, and he, he had lost a son that was born at Camp Lejeune due to birth defects and his wife had died not in the not too distant past from liver cancer, which was another thing that they mentioned on the commercial.

So he just explodes and throws his drink at the TV screen. He’s all by himself, you know, and then he realizes, you know, he’s had a PTSD moment, but for the first [00:23:00] time, he’s able to tie it to a trigger, you know, and he, and he vows to sit down and, and not stop writing until he runs out of whiskey or words.

And, and to some extent, when I had the idea, I said, I’m going to sit down and start writing, like I’m in the, you know, I can feel this, you know, as a, as a good. Uh, foundation for the story. So, so I, I tried to build that character, um, and allow, you know, my readers, I hope to, uh, explore what it’s like to have been a veteran who’s been exposed to these stresses and to have experienced these tremendous losses.

You know, what would it feel like? And, and I, a part of this is like a psychological drama, you know, it’s about veterans, it’s about war, it’s about horses. But it’s also, uh, you know, where this protagonist, his name is Jake Montgomery, you know, uh, has sort of an, [00:24:00] uh, uh, appealing of the psychological onion using this written exposure therapy because he’s writing this not so you can read it, or, you know, or somebody in his family can read it.

He’s not telling a story to anybody about himself, you know, he’s, he’s writing this For himself, this is, this is for his eyes only, you know, that, that’s the premise of written exposure therapy or journaling therapy. So, so you see the unvarnished truth and it moves around, uh, because that’s the way the mind works, you know, you probably, uh, you know, in, in one of your, you know, literature classes that you have in high school and college, they talk about stream of consciousness.

So in many respects, uh, the, the flow of this book is set up like a stream of consciousness journaling experience. Uh, but I believe it’s all tied together [00:25:00] very well. So it stays interesting. And, and there are a lot of events, life events that. They create drama, unexpected drama.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And, and so, you know, through the, this journaling, like you, like you said, it’s, it’s a stream of consciousness. It, it kind of flows with the mind’s thoughts and everything. And, uh, it, it gets, uh, but it, it gets to the, the real, um, Unvarnished truth of what this person is feeling. And, and so, you know, that that’s, it’s helpful because I think so it’s relatable to, you know, like there, there are people who likely have experienced very similar things and can, can kind of relate to where, where this character is coming from, um, now. The, um, uh, the horseman’s tail, right? So we’re talking about horses and equestrian, uh, type things. Um, there’s, [00:26:00] you know, equestrian therapy as well. Um, from your point of view, tell us a little bit about that and how that all ties in,

Tom Equels: Well, certainly, um, the, uh, uh, you know, the protagonist in this book grows up on a horse farm. So he’s with horses except when he’s in Vietnam or, you know, during, you know, different military events. He’s with horses all of his life and, and, uh, the, uh, uh, the benefits of, of equestrian therapy at first are not, you know, clear to him because, you know, he’s, he’s getting that, uh, gratis, you know, the, you know, because of his relationship with these horses, but, um, uh, he, he’s also, uh, uh, autistic.

One of the things that, that he, he’s hidden for most of his life is. Is he was, uh, uh, diagnosed very early on with, but at that point in time that they didn’t have the [00:27:00] word autistic or Asperger’s, it was called infantile schizophrenia. And so one of the, one of the things that, that create, you know, his, uh, PTSD is the, is the twisting that occurred because his parents were committed using different techniques, but to hide this, uh, from others so that he wasn’t labeled or stigmatized.

Uh, because they had had, uh, other experiences in their family where, where, in time, the, the children were able to develop and function and, and even be very high functioning, so, uh, but, but, uh, like, uh, like anything, if, if, uh, if you’re a child and your parents are saying, But let’s say you’re a child and you have a grandmother that’s African American, but everybody appears to be white, and [00:28:00] it’s the 1950s, right?

And they’re saying, whatever you do, don’t let anybody know that grandma is colored, right? You know, that’s our secret, and well now, now, for that child, what is that telling that child? That telling that, that’s telling that child there’s something wrong with you that you have to hide. You know, similarly with the, with the autism, you know, uh, you know, there’s a, there’s a sense of, of, uh, like an attack on your self worth, uh, uh, you know, perhaps feelings of inadequacy, you know, that, that have to go along with the fact you’re hiding who you really are.

So, so that’s one of the things that’s developed in this book and because he has experienced this. You know, he makes a point of working with children, you know, locally with the equine therapy for children that are autistic or down [00:29:00] syndrome to give them the opportunity to have the benefits of, uh, that experience with horses and, and if I, you know, not all of your listeners are probably familiar with why equine therapy works, uh, So, if I could take a minute to explain that,

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, that’d be great.

Tom Equels: so, um, horses, uh, especially, and, and there are some, there are some other animals that are like this too, dogs to some degree, and I, I, And for 17 years, uh, uh, half wolf, uh, half German shepherd where I saw it also, uh, at a very high level in, in, in her, but horses, uh, almost across the board have an extremely high empathetic IQ or capacity. And what I mean by empathy is that horses. are able to feel what you’re feeling. [00:30:00] Not intellectual, they don’t intellectualize it. You know, if you’re nervous, you know, or you’re afraid, or you’re depressed, they can feel that, you know, and sometimes they’ll adopt it, right? Um, sometimes they’ll respond to it with a, with a little extra love and, and acceptance.

Somehow, you know, that connection between a person and a horse, you know, has the ability, especially I’ve seen, you know, with my own eyes with autistic children, where they, um, they’ve been in, um, uh, this may be a slang term rather than a medical term, Like a freeze loop where they’re, you know, locked into, um, uh, you know, certain, you know, maybe apraxia, maybe, uh, you know, which is, might be the inability to speak or facial, you know, gestures being, or muscular gestures being [00:31:00] frozen or, or spasmatic.

And, and the parents, there’s nothing that the parents can do about it. Um, but, you know, then you see, you know, that child, when you help them get on the horse, you have to help them to get to know the horse and, and everything, and they get on the horse and, and it just disappears, and they’re smiling, and, and you realize something special just happened.

I’ve seen parents cry when they see that, you know, because they feel, they feel lost. You know, they don’t know what to do. They love their child, but they just don’t know what to do. And so, so when you see things like that happen, you realize that some of these old adages, you know, uh, or old horse sayings are true.

And one of them is the best thing for the inside of a person is the outside of a horse. know, so like I went riding this morning for an hour and it’s a horse that I, I helped, uh, I, I, I helped bring that [00:32:00] horse into the world when he was born. So. So, we’ve been together for 12 or 13 years, we’re buddies, and you know, I go out with him into the woods, and I feel good, I think he feels good, and no matter what’s going on in my life, it makes a difference for me.

So, horses can play a very important role in helping from a therapeutic standpoint, and the therapy for PTSD follows along the same lines.

Scott DeLuzio: You know,

Tom Equels: of the PTSD is, you have all these fears, you have all, you could be ashamed of things, you could, you know, you could be ashamed that you didn’t do something to help somebody who got killed, or You know, uh, there’s, there’s no hero out there that has never experienced cowardice.

I mean, you know, where you say, Oh, I can’t do this. Oh my, you know, you know, I’m going to get killed. You know, everyone has experienced that. You know, now, you know, I guess [00:33:00] what, what makes you a hero is even though you’re feeling that way, you know, your, your call to duty is, well, you know, I got to do this anyway.

You know, and you follow through, but, uh, you know, very, very few, uh, very few people, you know, are like the TV heroes where they just, Oh, you know, charge, you know, you know, the, cause you know, when you’re being shot at and, or, you know, you’re in a bayonet fight or whatever it is, you know, and, and your life is on the line, um, uh, I’ve never met anybody who said that, Oh, that doesn’t bother me.

Scott DeLuzio: yeah, there’s a bit of a, the self preservation aspect, uh, that, that gets filtered into that, uh, that whole equation, right, um, you know, and it, it’s interesting too, I, I’ve talked to some other people about, equestrian therapy for PTSD and [00:34:00] other things. But, you know, to your point of, you know, when, when that child who maybe is, is struggling with, with something and they get on that horse and it kind of seems like it almost melts away.

Um, you know, the, the horse will be able to kind of sense the things that are going on with the person, but, um, the person can kind of see how the horse is reacting too. And if the horse isn’t reacting the way. A horse normally reacts, you know, in your mind anyways, um, that might be a reflection of yourself is that like the, the horse is picking up on something from you that maybe it doesn’t like, and that’s making that horse not be. As horse like as you might expect it to be, right?

Tom Equels: well, let’s say, I mean, I, I’ve seen this, so I, I know that there’s a relationship now I’m a bit of a, uh, a scientist nerd, you know, so this is [00:35:00] not, this is not what anybody could ever say is statistically valid. It’s anecdotal. But, but, you know, I’ve seen people who are terrorized by horses, you know, and they’re, you know, everybody’s trying to get them to ride the horse, you know, and, and it’s just not going to happen because if you’re like that afraid, you know, the horse becomes afraid. You know, the horse doesn’t understand why you’re that afraid, but they, they realize that if you’re that afraid. We probably shouldn’t be doing this, you know.

Scott DeLuzio: Right. Well, there’s something to be afraid of in the horse’s mind. There’s something to, they don’t know what it is. They don’t know what it’s in themselves. And, and it, so they become afraid because it’s like, well, there’s clearly something wrong. Right.

Tom Equels: Well, you know, I mean, even as a, as an old man, I’m 72 now, soon to be 73, I hope. And, uh, uh, you know, you, you, uh, uh, you realize that you’re not immune [00:36:00] from screaming out in fear, you know, when something surprises you. Uh, in the forest here in north central Florida, um, we, we call it, uh, we call it, uh, a spider season.

It’s about a month, a month and a half there when it crossed the trails in the woods around here. These, these spiders, like the size of your hand, we call them banana spiders. I don’t know why, because there’s no bananas, but they are yellow. But, uh, and they, they make their webs, these big webs across the trails, So, you know, if you’re not paying attention. You know, and you, you run into one of those webs, the, the, the, uh, the spiders, they, they just go up, you know, when they’re, when they’re afraid, they just go up and, and, uh, we went through one and I, I didn’t know it cause it was the sort of lower and it, and the spider came up the horse, got on me, came up me, I, I didn’t know that there was a spider on me until it was like crawling on my face, you know, and.

I screamed like a [00:37:00] little boy, you know, the horse took off,

Scott DeLuzio: Oh, wow.

Tom Equels: especially, this is my horse. I mean, you know, he never probably experienced me like,

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah, but, but at that point, the horse,

Tom Equels: we don’t want to be here anymore. That’s right.

Scott DeLuzio: right, the horse knew something was wrong. Didn’t know what, necessarily, but knew something was wrong. Um, you know, so, it’s interesting, you know, hearing about equestrian therapy, and obviously this episode is not 100 percent about equestrian therapy, or not, it’s not like you have equestrian Therapy services that you’re providing or anything like that, uh, necessarily.

Right.

Tom Equels: don’t. You know, all the, all the equestrian type therapy activities that I’ve done over the years. And I have a lot of years of experience. I’ve been, you know, like people have asked, you know, can, can I bring my child and I always try to accommodate [00:38:00] that. And there was one little girl and she had a fairly high functioning autism, but she was having, she was in a special, uh, uh, education section at her school.

And, and her parents wanted to see if she could do some writing and they would bring her, you know, every weekend and. And I had an older horse that I was sort of retiring and I used that and they got along really well and, and ultimately gave her the horse. Um, and, but she, you know, her parents for years would come back and say, thank you, you know, telling me the progress she made because she’s able to get into a normal academic program.

She was showing the horse successfully, you know, and, and, and there was just a big change. In her personality based upon her relationship with that horse. So, you know, when you’re able to do good things like that, you know, every once in a while, I mean, it, it, uh, I think it’s very important. [00:39:00] Um,

Scott DeLuzio: For sure. Yeah, absolutely. Um, I kinda want to bring that back to the book though, again, the, the Horseman’s Tale, um, and, uh, talk about how some of the characters, uh, in the book, how they’re, the interaction with the animals, um, have kind of helped their, their progress, um, and, and how, um, that can. Uh, you know, I, we, I guess we kind of just, uh, talked about how that can be applied in, in real life, obviously, you know, from a fictional story, but you know, in, in real life that has its parallels as well, right?

Tom Equels: well it does. And, and, you know, the, the, the book is a very powerful, um, drama and it, I mean, it pulls you from page to page partly because it’s, It’s, uh, you know, uh, telling these experiences in a, in a, what I think is a fairly realistic way, you know, it feels like, it feels like it’s actually happening or has happened to somebody, [00:40:00] but, but I want to, you know, rather than go to the specific characters and who did what, uh, you know, remember this is, this is all first person from Jake Montgomery.

Sort of, uh, you know, his journaling experience, but, but I want to talk about people in general, um, and veterans, um, you know, especially veterans who were actually in, uh, you know, episodes of serious combat, you know, whether you’re being bombarded with artillery shells or. You know, crawling through the bush with a, with a rifle or, you know, flying a, a jet fighter, you know, the, the, the, you know, where their missiles being shot at you, you know, blow you up.

I mean, you know, the, the, you know, those, those people, I think, uh, and, and to some extent I, I experienced this myself. Is you survive by [00:41:00] developing, um, think about it like a, an emotional shell, you know, a callous where, where the, these things that, that hurt you can’t get in side, they, now the problem is, is that as you go through life, you know, that mechanism that you used when you’re in these, these, uh, tremendously difficult combat situations.

becomes your go to mechanism for dealing with problems oftentimes. And, and the result is, is if you have this emotional callous that you’ve developed to protect yourself, the reality is that the, the biggest thing that stands in your way to What I think is a path to happiness and love and, uh, relationships is that emotional callous.

So it becomes the problem. [00:42:00] Now, in this book, you know, we see how Jake Montgomery, you know, uh, through his relationship with horses. And one horse in particular, a horse named Shiloh, that’s a character in the book, you know, learns how to open himself up again, open himself to being able to love, you know, being able to care and not being ashamed of who he is or, or, you know, uh, how he thinks, you know, and, and, and with this horse, uh, you know, he’s experiencing And a form of unconditional love that it is healing for him, right?

Now, what does that mean? That means that he now has the opportunity to interact in that same way with important people in his life. You know, this, this empathy that I’m talking [00:43:00] about, that, that we experienced with the horse, you know, another very empathetic, uh, animal is the human being, you know, so, you know, but we don’t, we don’t approach each other that way.

We don’t, you know, because of societal, you know, uh, strictures and the way we learn and process, you know, we develop the shell rather than learn how to be open and loving and. And accepting and forgiving. So this book is about how he learns, you know, to take all these things that he’s hidden, even from himself, you know, to take all the lies and rationalizations that, that are a part of that shell that everybody thinks is Jake Montgomery and break that down and by accepting who he is and what he’s done, and he’s done some bad things in this book.

You know, that, uh, that, that are a part of, uh, you know, what he hides, uh, from others and [00:44:00] himself and, and he learns to accept who he is. And then most importantly, forgive who he is because you cannot love if you cannot forgive and forgiveness of others. It’s almost impossible if you haven’t learned how to forgive yourself for those things, you know, so self acceptance and forgiveness becomes the foundation for him learning how to love again, for the restoration of his spirit.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And when you, you look at that, um, that reaction that people have, that callousness that gets built up, sometimes it becomes, you know, Easier and easier as time goes on, just to continue building up that callous that hides those things from the rest of the world, and as opposed to chipping away at it [00:45:00] and exposing some of those things, um, it, it’s, it’s It’s almost like a muscle that gets flexed over time.

Um, you know, if you, if you don’t exercise that muscle, it’s going to get weak and it’s gonna be harder to do anything with it. But, um, you know, the more, the more you use it, the easier it gets. And so the more you use that muscle of building up that callus, if you will, uh, you know, using that kind of as an analogy, um, the easier it is just to continue to have that callus, uh, built up there.

Tom Equels: It’s true, and you know, perhaps the most important thing that we can learn in life, you know, if we want to have a happy and rich life, is to learn how to love. And, and, you know, that, that, you know, that may sound like a very Pollyanna kind of a thing, but the reality is, is that, you know, we need to learn how to love ourselves and love others if we’re going to have a happy life, if we’re going to have a satisfying life, [00:46:00] you know, and, and sometimes Because of that shell I described and obviously it’s a, it’s a allegorical shell, but it’s, it can be very hard and tough, you know, but nobody can see it, uh, you know, like visually, but because of that, you know, we get very few opportunities with other people to break through that because You know, people have their own, um, issues.

So if you’re, you know, so, but all of us, uh, if, if, if we have that problem, we’ll have some mechanism, you know, we’ll have a cat or a dog or a, and you know, if you think about it, you know, you come home from work. And your dog is overjoyed, you know, that you’re home. Right? Well, that’s love. You know?

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

Tom Equels: Love. And if [00:47:00] we could just learn that lesson from the dog, right?

Or the horse, and start to apply it to our own lives where Where, uh, uh, we express and receive that kind of, uh, uh, feeling with other people. And I believe we’ll find that it creates an opportunity for a spiritual enrichment.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Because. You know, it, it may, I don’t know, maybe it’s, maybe it’s easier to express love towards an animal, a horse, a dog, you know, other, other animals, uh, and, and maybe that’s why this is so effective is because works at chipping away that callous that, that we’ve had built up over all these years, potentially, um, where we’re like, okay, well, Yes, I can be this way towards this animal.

Why not towards the other people in my life as well? [00:48:00] Right?

Tom Equels: Well, you know, and, and the reason that, the reason that you see it where, where people can have this very tough emotional shell, but you know, with it, they melt with it, you know, their, their dog, right? Well, it’s because, you know, they, they don’t feel like the dog is judging them. You know, you know, they could tell the dog, Oh, um, you know, they, I could have saved my buddy Bob when, you know, we were being attacked by so and so, but instead this mortar hit and I ducked down and.

And by the time I, you know, came out of my hole, he was dead, you know, and, but I could have saved him and, and I regret it. Well, you could tell that to the dog. The dog could care less, right? You know, dogs still love, like I say, the dog still loves you. You come home, the dog loves you. He’s happy, right? Uh, you know, so, so maybe that’s why, uh, not to say that people You know, like, uh, [00:49:00] talk about these hidden things with, you know, with, with their animals, but the animals, the horse is, the horse is not judging you.

The horse, the horse responds to you. The horse loves you. Sometimes if you’re, if you’re mean or cruel to a horse, the horse will, will, will respond in kind, you know, uh, probably there’s some dogs. I, I guarantee you, if I’d been. Uh, cruel or abusive with my wolf dog. I might not have a hand, you know,

Scott DeLuzio: Right. Right.

Tom Equels: that wolf part of her was, was, you know, it, you know, it upped her emotional IQ and, and, and everything a lot.

But, but, you know, you all, you always knew there was a wolf there, you know.

Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

Tom Equels: the, uh, uh, but the, but, but I think that’s the difference. And, and, you know, much of the fear that, that is the reason we have that emotional catalyst. is based upon where we’re judging ourselves harshly. You know, we’re not, we’re not able [00:50:00] to accept who we are, what we’ve done, you know, the mistakes we’ve made in life, you know, the poor choices.

But the reality is, is that we all have those things, you know, um, uh, there’s sexual content in this book, for example, and there’s violence in this book. You know, and people say, well, why did you put that in the book? I, and I told them, I said, you know, the reason that’s in the book is because these are the kinds of things that we deal with in life.

I mean, it’s different for everybody, you know, exactly how it manifests itself. But our anger, our violence, our sexuality, our, our misplaced sexuality, uh, you know, our, our, uh, breaches of trust and love are all a part of who we are. And virtually every person has had these experiences, but those are, those are experiences that they ignore, they hide, they rationalize.[00:51:00]

That are a part of what has to be dealt with in order to move to that next step, which is forgiving oneself and learning how to love again. And

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. And it’s interesting because if you If you can get a dog or a horse or, you know, some other animal to look at you the way that they look at you when you walk through the door, like a dog, you know, I’m using that as an example because I have dogs myself, but, you know, you could, you know, leave them home alone, you know, all day and you come back at the end of the day and, and they are ecstatic to see you.

Um, and, and they, they, Nothing that you did while you’re gone matters to them. That doesn’t matter. You’re here right now. And that’s what matters to that dog

Tom Equels: you hit the key word is right now, you know, [00:52:00] you know, you’ve been gone all day. They probably would have liked to see you four hours earlier, you know, but, but, you know, they’re not operating. Oh, he wasn’t here at three o’clock. They’re operating on, Oh my God, there he is, you know, right now.

Scott DeLuzio: And I think that that was my point is, is that it’s. It’s right now. The animals are able to be present in the moment, uh, and I know like through various therapies, they talk about kind of grounding yourself and that mindfulness and all that and trying to be more present in the moment, right? To your point, you said earlier, the dog doesn’t care what you did or the horse or any other animal doesn’t care what you did 10 years ago or 20 years or decades ago, when you’re in combat, you know, that your actions caused this to happen and that to happen and all that kind of stuff.

The dog, the animals just don’t, they don’t care about that, that that’s not important to them. They care that you’re here right now. [00:53:00] And they care that. You’re happy to see them as much as they’re happy to see you right now. And so like getting that mindset shift, that frame of mind, uh, now on the here and now, think is a lot better place to be, right?

Tom Equels: Well, absolutely. And, and, uh, I mean, it’s, uh, um, you know, it’s a, uh, parallel experience that teaches us, you know, ways that we can, you know, live better.

Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

Tom Equels: I believe our relationships with animals. You know, our, you know, in, in addition to whatever the working relationship is, uh, you know, our, our learning opportunities for us and how to interact and have relationships.

You know, now, uh, relationships with people are sometimes more complicated and, [00:54:00] and, and so forth, uh, uh, because of the nature of humanity, but, but people, I think, you know, are meant to have the spiritual capacity to love. And because that’s a part of our intrinsic nature, just like anything else that we do, you know, I’m, I’m in my seventies, but I exercise every day as much as possible.

So I have muscles. I mean, they’re not big muscles, but you know, I’m relatively fit only because I exercise. Right? Well, you know, that, that capacity to love is, is only going to survive and not atrophy, uh, and, and maybe even grow if you use it. If you learn how to use it as a part of your everyday life, you know, be the love, you know, you know, make it a, make it [00:55:00] as much of a part of, of your daily routine as, uh, you know, going for a walk or playing pickleball or tennis or, you know, shooting some baskets or lifting weights, you know, the, you know, you know, try, you know, there are ways to do it too.

Just as simple as exercising, they’re love exercises. In the course of a day, try every day to, you know, do some act of kindness or something compassionate that, that, uh, you know, that you, you said, I’m going to do something like this today and you’ll find the opportunity to do it. You know, if you think about it, if everybody did an act of loving compassion every day, we would be living in a different world right now.

Scott DeLuzio: I’m, I’m sure, I’m sure that is absolutely true. Um, and, and to your point,

Tom Equels: not big things.

Scott DeLuzio: yeah, right. And, and sure, if you can do, if there’s an opportunity to do a [00:56:00] big thing, wonderful to do that, but if, if it’s. All you have time or capacity for is, is a little thing. Um, if everybody did that little thing, it would have a tremendous impact on, on the world.

Yeah. Um, but to your point of how. Um, you have to do the exercise to get the muscle or, you know, play basketball and, and, or go for a walk or you have to be intentional. You don’t just fall into the gym and just like, Oh my gosh, these weights are in front of me and I’m, I’m, I’m using them. Like it’s not like an accident that those things happen.

You have to have some intention. You got to put your gym shoes on, you know, your gym clothes, you get in the car, you drive to the gym, you, you do the exercise, you, you, all of that stuff. There’s some intention. There, uh, around that, just like to your point, you probably have to be pretty intentional, especially if you have that callous built up where [00:57:00] you’re, you’re keeping people out, you’re not letting people in and you’re, you’re being very, uh, hardened against that loving muscle, uh, if you will, uh, you’re not, you haven’t been flexing that, uh, very, very frequently.

Um, you, you’re going to have to, you know, Be pretty intentional with that.

Tom Equels: Well, and that’s right. And, and you know, going back to the book, the Horseman’s Tale, um, uh, you know, when people hear it, they think, you know, some of ’em have said, is that like a tail that wags? I said, no, it’s like the Canterbury Tales. And in fact, you know, there, there was an element of the Canterbury Tales that is built into the overarching theme of this book, and that is.

In the Canterbury Tales, it was in Old English, so it was very difficult for some people to understand because of the way it’s written. It was the first work of fiction in English, and, and, uh, and, and the reason it was fiction is because if he had said those things, like, where he’s trying to explain [00:58:00] them from his own mouth He probably would have been burned at the stake, right?

So he’s using these characters that are talking about things that are, uh, you know, very important in the society of those days. But, but the, the, that theme of that book was each of these people tell their tale. They’re on a pilgrimage to Canterbury to find reconciliation and redemption, right? So their stories are about, oh, this was what my life was like.

And I, this is. You know, I did this and, you know, uh, that’s why I need to go, you know, to Canterbury Cathedral to find redemption. And, and through the telling of it, you can see, you know, in the reactions and the other characters, you know, that, that just the telling of it begins the process. Confession and reconciliation and redemption.

Cause if you’re able to tell it to somebody else, now it’s out there. Right now in this book, you [00:59:00] know, he’s only telling it to himself, but the, the, the book shows the evolution, you know, uh, in the telling, uh, uh, and in the living, how is he learns these lessons. You know, he learns how to love and he learns how to change his life and his approach.

Scott DeLuzio: You know, and I, I think that’s, uh, maybe very important, uh, piece of it to take away is, is that, um, you know, first off, yes, it’s a work of fiction, but, um, it’s, it’s done in a way that it allows us to start to maybe. Learn and understand a bit about ourselves through, uh, through reading this, um, just like you were talking about how, you know, all those years ago, [01:00:00] um, the, in the Canterbury Tales, they, they, they use fiction for a purpose like that.

And I, I think that’s, um, you know, some people maybe, um, They think, Oh, well, it’s fiction. So maybe that won’t apply to me. Well, you know, it’s, it’s fiction, but it done done in the way that, that I, that you described here. Um, it, it does apply, you know, because you might be going through very similar, uh, Themes, anyways, maybe not the same exact scenarios, maybe you don’t have horses readily available to you and you don’t have, uh, you know, Vietnam, you know, combat experience, um, but you might have something similar, right?

And so, um, you can at least take the lessons learned from, A story like this and start to say, well, how can I apply these to my own life?

Tom Equels: Well, and that was one of the reasons I wrote the book is, uh, you know, I, uh, you know, [01:01:00] I’m, I tried to, um, convey what I think are some universal truths that become a foundation for life lessons that help us to live a better life. Now, um, you know, it’s wrapped up in a story, but very much like Chaucer with Canterbury Tales or.

Saint John of the Cross with The Dark Knight, um, which were early, an early work of Spanish fiction that, and, and both, both Chaucer and Saint John were persecuted for writing what they wrote. I mean, Saint John was imprisoned and tortured for years because he wrote this poem called The Dark Knight, which of course made the poem famous and a hundred years later made him a saint, right?

But, but the, the, You know, the story, you know, teaches and, and this goes back to Jesus, you know, most of what Jesus taught, he taught with stories. [01:02:00] He didn’t say, do this or you’ll go to hell, he told a story about, well, there was a farmer and they had to, you know, and, you know, and, and he said, not everybody’s going to understand this story, but if you understand it, good for you, you know, so we learn from these stories, you know, you know, somebody will read about Jake Montgomery’s experience in The Horseman’s Tale.

And you’re right. You know, not everybody was a Marine Corps recon officer in Vietnam and in this horrible combat and everything, but almost everybody. You know, everybody in their life has experienced some trauma, whether it be abuse or a car accident, or, you know, some serious trauma that, that, you know, does have PTSD elements that follow on, you know, everybody in life that’s an adult, I assure you, everybody have things that they’re ashamed of, that they wish they hadn’t done, um, that they wish they’d done [01:03:00] differently, And that they hide from themselves and others as if it never happened, you know, but it’s always there, you know, uh, eating at them, you know, and, and, and getting that out.

Like, uh, the Jake Montgomery does in this book, you know, helps him. And if people understand, even if it’s only to yourself in a journal, you know, where you, you, you type it out and you explain it just for, and then you delete it. That act of doing that is gonna have a therapeutic, therapeutic impact on you to help you have a better life.

Because you’re learning, you’re coming to your, your truth. You’re accepting who you were. You know, maybe it’s not who you are right now, but you’re accepting who you were and, and you’re learning how to forgive yourself. And with that, forgiveness comes love. You know, we have to learn how to love ourselves Sometimes that’s not the easiest thing to do, always.

Because nobody knows us better than ourselves.[01:04:00]

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, that, that could be a blessing and a curse sometimes. I think,

Tom Equels: That’s right.

Scott DeLuzio: um, but, but you’re right. You know, we, you know, nobody knows us better than ourselves. Um, And, but a lot of times we are our own worst, uh, critics, uh, you know, our own worst enemy because we are so hard on ourselves because we do know all of those intimate details that maybe not everybody else knows, things that we’re ashamed of, things that we’re ashamed of.

Afraid of things that we, um, you know, just, we’re not proud of, you know, there’s, there’s plenty of things that, that I, I bet you, anybody, if you sit down and think about it, you could probably come up with a list of a dozen things easily that you are ashamed over, not proud of, or, you know, feel guilty about, or, or things along those lines, um, rather easily, um, if, if you sat down and actually thought about it, right.

Um, And so, yeah, of course we’re going to be harder on ourselves because we have those things in the back of our head and they’re constantly playing there [01:05:00] sometimes for

Tom Equels: Yeah, and you know, you mentioned the now earlier, I mean, you know, they’re, they become a part of our now, but we need to, I mean, I think, break things down a little bit to, you know, saying, this is who I was. Right, you know, and that’s a part of me right now, but this is who I was and this is who I am right now, you know, but also this is who I want to be, you know, you know, how do I, how do I see, you know, what, you know, what I would like to do, you know, once I’ve had the freedom to be open about who I was and who I am, you know, because you can’t go forward, you know, to who you want to be.

You know, unless you’ve dealt with those other two, who I was and who I am.

Scott DeLuzio: well, I think this is, um, it’s been a great conversation. Um, you know, going, [01:06:00] going, uh, through the book again, The Horseman’s Tale. Uh, here’s the book, try to get my fingers out of the way, uh, for the, uh, folks who are watching this video. Um, The Horseman’s Tale, um, It’s, it’s a great way of, of putting, um, all of these things that we talked about today, uh, you know, kind of wrapped up into one package, um, that we can, we can share with others and hopefully help others, um, you know, through, through this book.

Um, you know, so I, I want to take, Take the time to thank you for joining us today, sharing your journey with us as, uh, a young pilot in Vietnam, um, through, through the years and, and what got you to this point where you, uh, decided to write this book, um, I’m sure there’s a lot of folks out there, uh, you know, who are listening to this right now, who are going to benefit from, from this interaction.

Um, but also I want to encourage folks to, uh, get a copy of the book, The Horseman’s [01:07:00] Tale. I’ll have a link in the show notes for anyone who, uh, is interested in getting a copy. I’ll have a link there so you can get that copy for yourself. Um, but, but Tom, I do want to thank you for taking the time to come on.

Uh, really do appreciate it.

Tom Equels: Well, Scott, thank you very much for giving me an opportunity to talk about the book and what the book means and, and, uh, you know, The Horseman’s Tale is available on Amazon, Barnes Noble, any of the major book distributors, or we do have a website, thehorsemanstale. com, uh, that you can go to. But it, I think you’ll find it’s a very good read, and I think you’ll find it’s a read that’ll You know, pluck at your heartstrings in places or, you know, some, some parts will make you angry, you know, but, but it’s a book that has very high readability and emotional content.

So I hope you enjoy the ride.

Scott DeLuzio: I think, I think many people will, um, um, as I told you, I started reading it, uh, you know, but obviously before we started [01:08:00] recording here and, um, you know, I, I do enjoy, uh, enjoy the story, uh, the way it flows and, um, you know, it’s, it’s not an incredibly difficult read either, um, for, for some folks who are out there, it’s like, I, I don’t, I don’t have time to read or anything.

It’s, um, you know, it’s, it’s, It’s a, it’s a good, it’s a good, uh, read and I think you’ll enjoy it. So, uh, definitely grab a copy and, and I’ll, I’ll have, like I said, I’ll have links to that in, in the show notes as well. So, uh, grab, grab a copy and, uh, and let us know what you think.

Tom Equels: All the best.

Scott DeLuzio: All right. Thanks so much.