Episode 458 Dr. Kerry Forrestal Crushing Cancer: Tools and Hope for Patients Transcript

This transcript is from episode 458 with guest Dr. Kerry Forrestal.

Scott DeLuzio: [00:00:00] Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Drive On. I’m your host, Scott DeLuzio. And today, my guest is Dr. Kerry Forrestal. He’s a man of many talents. He’s a, an emergency room, uh, physician, uh, an author, educator, a veteran. Uh, he spent two decades serving in trauma centers and has a remarkable story to share. And, and today we’re going to take a look at his book titled Crushing Cancer, A Patient’s Complete Guide to Managing a Cancer Diagnosis.

Um, Certainly an important issue, um, especially among veterans. We’ve have had a lot of, a lot of issues with that, uh, amongst the veterans and in the veteran community. And we want to be able to manage that and come out ahead at the end of this kind of diagnosis. So before we get into that, um, Kerry, I, I, first off, I want to thank you for joining me and welcome you to the show.

Kerry Forrestal: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. This is, this is wonderful that you’re doing this. This is terrific. Thank you.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. And, uh, [00:01:00] I, I want to dive in, uh, to your book and, and talk about, um, You know, kind of what inspired you to write this book, Crushing Cancer, and, uh, kind of the background, what led you up to that point where you’re like, you know what, I got, I got this book in me, I got to put this out there.

Sure.

Kerry Forrestal: I, I get that question a lot, especially as an ER doctor. I get the question, why is an ER guy writing a book on cancer? And honestly, it’s not on treating cancer. It’s about managing your life while you’re going through cancer treatment. And it’s really three reasons. The first reason is we diagnose a lot of it.

So a guy comes in, he goes, I’ve had a little cough, or I remember one guy specifically, very active 70s, late 70s guy, he says, I think I tweaked my shoulder playing golf, and we took the chest x ray, and there’s, you know, long term smoker, and there’s the big goober right in his chest. You go, ah, you know, that, that’s one thing, it was, it never sat right with me.

To say to somebody, you have a very serious problem. Good [00:02:00] luck. Right? I wanted to do something that went beyond the confines of the emergency department, because once I get them set up with the oncologist or get them admitted to the hospital, believe it or not, when we find cancer, that doesn’t always mean you get admitted to the hospital and worked up.

They say, out you go, you know, make an appointment in the office. And, you know, and it’s like, if that was my loved one, I would want that taken care of as soon and as quickly as possible. So that was the first we find a lot of it. Second. Where do you go when things go wrong, right? Everybody beats feet to the emergency department when things go wrong.

And with something as complicated as cancer care, a lot of things can go wrong. And a lot of things that do go wrong are avoidable. So if you have a good roadmap, you can stay out of the emergency department because the last place, somebody who’s on chemotherapy, immunosuppression, You know, immunosuppressive medicines wants to be near is an emergency department, C.

diff, MRSA, VRE, COVID, flu, RS, I mean, we could spend an hour going over what you can catch in an emergency department, [00:03:00] right, and that’s all emergency departments in the United States, and the third is that it’s personal, you know, my family, you know, we don’t have heart disease, we don’t have, we don’t have any of that stuff, we have cancer, so my mom’s had cancer, uh, three times, she passed recently of something else, But she was on her third bout of lung cancer.

My father’s had skin cancer. I don’t know how many times my sister skin cancer, my grandfather actually World War I, world War II and Chorea Vet, he was born in 1901. So he was just right in that zone where you could do that. Um, survived all of that, right? He, he didn’t go to Korea. He was, he was domestically activated, but World War I, world War ii, both theaters, and he ultimately died of bladder cancer.

In 1971, there really wasn’t anything, my grandmother, uterine cancer, I mean, it just goes on and on and on. So it was a very personal thing for me, the cancer, you know, the whole cancer world.

Scott DeLuzio: You had a good point about the [00:04:00] cancer patients who are on these different medications and things that are helping them in their cancer journey. The last place I want to be is an emergency room. Um, because they’re, I mean, What do you think of when, when you think of emergency room, that that’s where you go when something’s wrong, right?

Whether it could be an accident, sure. Like a car accident or you, you fell and you broke your, your leg or, you know, whatever things happen like that too, um, where you’re not necessarily contagious. No one’s going to catch a broken leg or, you know, uh, you know, anything like that. But if you’re, you’re sick, you’re going to go to the doctor to get help because you need help now.

You don’t, you don’t want to make an appointment, you know, two weeks from now, because that will.

Kerry Forrestal: Yeah. I mean, that’s

Scott DeLuzio: too late at that point, you know?

Kerry Forrestal: you know, just, yeah, make an appointment. It just, ah, that just, that just doesn’t, and they have to do it. I understand, you know, that, that I understand why I understand that we’re a limited resource and I understand all that, but still, it just, it just killed me to say, good luck.

And have nothing more to contribute [00:05:00] to the path that I put this person on, you know, so, but yeah,

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. A hundred percent. And so, uh, you know, in the book, um, you, you have a bunch of, um, advice for patients who are going through this, this journey, um, what, what are some of the tips or the advice that you might give, uh, to, to some people who are, are, uh, in there, what, what can the people expect from the book?

Kerry Forrestal: the book is basically the how to Bible. Everything from how to manage your finances, keep a roof over your head, how, what the resources, where the pots are that you can pull from. You should never look at your bank account as your, you know, first resource, very last resource, right? So it’s, it’s all the financial stuff, the workplace, Stuff, how do you protect yourself in your workplace, what are your legal protections, all those things.

A big part of the book is how to avoid scams, but if I had to give one initial part, or one initial word of advice, right, when you get that [00:06:00] diagnosis, sir, I’m sorry but it looks like you may have cancer, right, the whole world is going to snap off for you for a second. My brother in law had prostate cancer and he said it became like the peanuts.

Where the guy was on wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah, and he got nothing of it. Now, my sister is an accountant. She is a numbers person. She is, she writes everything down and she just dropped into mode immediately and took everything that was said down and when they got home, they had two completely different experiences of being diagnosed with cancer.

You know, he was like over here and she goes, none of that, none of that is accurate, you know, so the biggest bit of advice. First thing, do nothing. Don’t just jump in. Don’t, don’t make any plans. Don’t give anything away. Don’t do anything. We have a phrase in the emergency department, right? You know, the old phrase, don’t just stand there, do something.

The ER turns that around. Don’t just do something. Stand there.

Scott DeLuzio: Okay.

Kerry Forrestal: your thoughts. Nail your feet to the ground. Don’t do anything until you can collect yourself, get a plan together, and then move forward. And that [00:07:00] power of a plan is incredible. You know, it takes away the fear. It takes away the uncertainty.

Say, okay, this is my next step. Now, we’re military, right? Rule one, you got to have a plan. Rule two, No plan survives contact with the enemy, right? So, and you have to be flexible, you have to kind of roll with it, whatever is going to happen, what you think is going to happen, rarely does. So, and the other part is on the kind of other side of it, you know, when you get started, this is an amazing time that we are going through right now, we are in the fourth great age.

Of cancer treatment, right? First was, you know, thousands of years ago, you know, they got a growth, you cut it off, right? And that only works with certain growths. Then came Madame Curie and we learned about radiation and came Farber, uh, and we learned about chemotherapy, but now we have immunotherapy and we are getting better and better and better at it.

CAR T, there are viruses that go after melanoma. Just like the hepatitis that goes after your liver, there are viruses that [00:08:00] specifically target melanoma and we’re learning all the keys on how to use these things to use our own immune system to beat cancer. So if there is any word I would sum it up with, this is a hopeful time to, if you have to deal with this and God forbid you do, but if you have to, this is a great time.

Yes.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And the technology and the knowledge and the medicines and everything that goes into it are only getting better with time, right? As you mentioned years and years ago, yeah, it was, it was very crude and, uh, you know, rudimentary. You just, yeah, cut off that growth and maybe it’ll work. Maybe it won’t, but

Kerry Forrestal: Maybe it won’t, right?

Scott DeLuzio: Exactly.

Kerry Forrestal: It’s interesting. I brought up an analogy for the book when I was first writing it that just didn’t work, but in this environment, it might, right? We know an army is about 500, 000 guys, right? Military, we understand that. And I actually looked it up and literally there are more than 500, 000 people working on this problem worldwide.

There is [00:09:00] literally an army at your back. So this is the one environment might get that because everybody else kind of went like, I don’t understand, you know, it’s,

Scott DeLuzio: Well, that does make sense. Um, to me anyways, you know, and, and it’s, does provide some hope too, because if, if I’m going through this right now and yeah, you might feel like you’re you and maybe your doctor are the only two who, who actually give a damn about this, right? But no, there’s, there’s actually a literal army behind you.

Kerry Forrestal: is a literal army at your back.

Scott DeLuzio: who wants to find the cure, find the preventative solutions and ways to get you better. Exactly. Um, and, and when you, when you have people who are going through this, I like how you said, you know, pause, uh, don’t, don’t do anything right. away. Don’t, no knee jerk reactions, come up with a plan, uh, that type of thing.

Um, for, for folks who are, uh, I, I think you said your brother in law who, who just [00:10:00] was overwhelmed by the information. Um, I would have to imagine that it’s probably good advice to have, um, either a close friend or a relative or somebody who you can trust to be there with you when kind of getting that information from the doctor, because you’re, like you said, you’re probably going to miss something,

Kerry Forrestal: Yep. Oh yeah. The, the value of your wingman, you know, like I said, the wingman is, is critical and you have to choose well, most of the time it’s going to be a spouse, uh, a friend or whoever has is the most grounded person that you know, that it’s going to just be there for you. Uh, I can, I can tell you the, uh, just like, uh, my brother in law and my sister, uh, I Uh, one of the PhDs who helped me with this book, a lady named Karen Martin, same thing, you know, they said you have uterine cancer, you know, everything went off, and when they got home, again, he was like, her husband Dave, who’s a very, very grounded guy, he’s a Mercedes mechanic, so very meticulous, I was like, Karen, he didn’t say any of that.

He, you know, this is no, that’s wrong. So, um, yeah, your wingman is key. Do not try to do this [00:11:00] alone. You know, like I said, there are some times that won’t be possible not to, but there’s, there’s always somebody that’s there willing to help. Use

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. So go in, go in with that, that wingman, that person, um, whether it’s your spouse or not, if you have a spouse, maybe you don’t, um, you know, it could be a child, not a child, child, but like your adult children, um, you know, who, who might be able to help you with that or, um, you know, some other relative or, or a close friend, someone like that as well.

Right. Um, now. Um, this, this has, this book to me at its core has to deal with resilience too, right? Um, I, I feel like someone who is not a very resilient person, um, maybe is going to have a tougher time in, in a battle as difficult as cancer might be, right? Um, but this gives, gives that hope and gives, gives a, uh, a pathway to.[00:12:00]

that resilient outcome, that, you know, battling that, that cancer, right? Um, in your experience, where, how does resilience play a role in, uh, in all of this?

Kerry Forrestal: So the first thing I’ve come to learn over the years, I was EMS for 17 years before I went to become a doctor and dealt with cancer patients, transferring them back and forth, cancer in my own family. And then of course, you know, dealing with cancer patients in the ER, and I gravitate to them. If I see somebody who’s got a cancer complication, I grab that chart.

You know, I want those patients, but the thing is that I think most people drastically underestimate how resilient they are. You know, once they get going, it’s scary at first and absolutely knocks you just, you know, end over end. But when they get started and they start to figure out where everything is, You know, where, you know, this is what I need to do.

Okay. This, I can do this. I can, you know, I can get here. It is astonishing how resilient people [00:13:00] become almost defiant. In fact, I would say defiant, you know, there was a lady who, um, I met who had gotten the book through a friend of mine, right? His mother in law had contracted breast cancer. And she’s very sweet lady.

She was a little bit older, 70 years old. And, um, she said something to me. Um, she just kind of popped up at, uh, my friend’s daughter had gotten married and we’re all at this party. And I turn around and there she is. And Steve says, Hey, you know, this is my mother in law. Your book helped her. And, you know, I’m an ER guy.

I’m used to things popping up at me. That’s my job, right? And she turned around and she just took my hand. She said, thank you. It took away my fear and I could move forward. And I had nothing. I was just, I was like, I was not ready for that. And it’s that thing is that if you understand the path better, right?

You’re not going to be as fearful. You move forward and you’ll be surprised at what you’re capable of doing. And, and that is the, that to me is the rule rather than the exception. [00:14:00] Sometimes, yeah, people get overwhelmed, they do, and day to day it can get overwhelming, but people complete this course, you know, they complete the cancer journey as a rule.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And when you have fear about something, there might be that, that tendency to, uh, almost procrastinate with it and, and just be like, I, you know what, this is too big. It’s too much for me to handle. So I’m just going to go. Put it over there and not deal with it for right now And then eventually it gets to be this huge thing that you can’t avoid right?

It’s it’s it’s not like a You know, I have this I have this weird spot that you know, it’s okay. It’s it’s not really bothering me So I’m just gonna forget about it right now. And you know, I’m not gonna Do anything about it, but then eventually it grows and grows and it becomes this bigger nuisance and you know, now I can’t move my shoulder anymore because it’s really, you know, bothering me or whatever.

Um, now, now it’s become a much [00:15:00] bigger problem and who knows if it, you know, has spread elsewhere. Um, and, and that’s one of those things that you don’t want to have happen. You don’t, you don’t want that to.

Kerry Forrestal: the more you wait, the worse it

Scott DeLuzio: Exactly. And, and one of the things that you mentioned earlier too, is, uh, sometimes people, uh, might put their finances, uh, and say, well, this treatment’s going to be too expensive.

I can’t afford that. Right. And so I’m just, I’m not going to think about it right now. Hopefully it’ll just, the problem will just go away. Right. That type of thing.

Kerry Forrestal: Fortunately with the veterans, the insurance is a little less of an impediment, but the way we do insurance, You know, especially for cancers, the cancer diagnosis doesn’t automatically mean you’re going to get, you know, let’s say for example, disability and be able to get Medicaid or Medicaid or whatever.

So we do it very strangely in this country. But yeah, you’re right. The one thing, like cancer in our society has always been like, Oh no, right? And understandably, because if you, if you look at everything we write, you know, people write these books. You ever notice how all the books about cancer are very [00:16:00] emotional and then the guy dies?

Gilda Radner. Transcribed Amazing book, and she dies. Scott’s book, Every Day I Fight, great book, dies. Brian Piccolo, in the end, dies. Survival is more the rule. You know, people survive cancer far more than they succumb to it, and earlier detection makes that more possible. So I’d like to start to move our society from that thing we were talking about, the army, before.

That army behind you. So, you know, cancer comes and says, okay, I’ll launch it. You say, instead of, Oh no, say, Oh yeah, yeah, I got an army says different.

Scott DeLuzio: Right, right,

Kerry Forrestal: and that’s really it. We have to start to move in our, our understanding of cancer that we are getting better at it every day. There is great reason to hope.

And yeah, if you want to come at me, okay, I got me and 500, 000 of my best friends. I’m going to say something different about it.

Scott DeLuzio: right. And, and it doesn’t get cheaper the longer you wait, right? And like you said, it’s easier to, uh, to deal with it the earlier on that, that it’s [00:17:00] detected. Right. And so that, that leads into the, that early detection. How, how do we detect it before you start noticing these weird, you know, symptoms that you might, might start, you know, noticing?

Experiencing might might be a spot on your skin. It might be some pain on your side or you know, some other Symptom that you might have What are some of the ways that people can can go about? You know the the early detection of cancer

Kerry Forrestal: Thing one, you know, understand your risk. If you, like me, have a strong family history, okay, you know, lung cancer, skin cancer, I was a lifeguard for seven years. And then in the military beside me, you know, we have higher rates of melanoma. So, you know, I’ve, I’ve been to the dermatologist and been checked over and I actually had a precancerous thing that they treated.

Right. So one, understand kind of what your risk factors are and what your occupational hazards are. All right. I have focused on military and firefighters because they have the higher levels of cancer incidents [00:18:00] based on they’re exposed to every bad thing under the sun, you know, and then, you know, make sure that you’re going to the doctor on the regular, you know, do your, you know, your yearly checkups and really be honest about it.

If you have an, you know, a spot in an embarrassing place, Don’t not tell the guy, you know, say, Hey, yeah, there’s this thing over this thing. And, you know, and, and tell them there, you know, these, these primary care guys are fabulous, you know, and if you need that extra, you know, they’ll, they’ll, they’ll move you along to it and do the early screening, you know, is, is make sure that, you know, if you have a lung cancer, uh, you know, a strong lung cancer history in your family, and you were a mechanic like my dad was, and you were a smoker.

Okay, get, you know, get, get the x ray. We’re getting better with the liquid biopsies where they take the blood sample. You know, and then there’s Colagard, uh, you know, where they ship you, it’s kind of strange in this day and age. They ship you a container that you poop into, and then you FedEx it back, you know, and, and, okay, you know, so I, I never thought I’d be shipping stool, but there [00:19:00] you have it.

So, there are a lot of opportunities to talk with your doctor, kind of nail down, and, and if, you know, especially the younger guys, have a doctor. Have a primary care doctor. Don’t just roll the dice that you’re going to be okay. Maybe you’re right, but if you’re wrong, think about everything you lose. You know, so, just, it’s really actually nothing magical. Get a doctor, go do the yearly, be honest, when it comes your time to do whatever, do whatever. You know, so, breast mammograms for women, and chest x rays for, you know, and if you have to do the colonoscopy, you do the colonoscopy.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and I think to your point there it When, when the time comes for these types of screenings, don’t hide from them. Yeah, sure. They’re going to be uncomfortable. I got, I got that. Right. Nobody, nobody likes having those types of things being done, being poked and prodded and, you know, all those types of things.

Right. The alternative is a hell [00:20:00] of a lot worse.

Kerry Forrestal: Yeah, yeah, my wife is on to me because I did the Cologuard, but I still have to do the colonoscopy, but she was good and she did hers, so she’s, she’s one up on me here. So,

Scott DeLuzio: well, and then, then she can hold that over you and be like, Hey, I did it. So, you know, where’s yours? You know? And,

Kerry Forrestal: oh, and she will, she will.

Scott DeLuzio: I’m sure. Yeah,

Kerry Forrestal: earshot. So, yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: yeah. And, and it’s, it’s one of those things too, where it’s nice, you know, if you do have a partner in, in this, where it’s like, okay, well, I, I’ve done mine. It’s your turn now.

You go do it. And, and it’s almost a little bit of peer pressure, but it gets you to do those things that you, you should be doing. Right. And, um, yeah. And when you detect these things early, um, the, the, um, the rates of survival and, um, you know, coming, coming through it on the other side, you know, with a clean bill of health is a hell of a lot higher than someone who waits until it advances to a more advanced stage, right?

Kerry Forrestal: Oh, yeah. Yeah. You catch it at stage one, you win. You know, that is almost the rule. I mean, [00:21:00] there are some that are a little tougher, you know, like pancreatic cancer, even at stage one, it’s got a rough survival, right, but they’re getting better at it, but you catch lung cancer, liver cancer, prostate, bladder, whatever you win, you know, your, your chances of winning go way up.

And that, you know, that’s another thing to touch on very quickly. First thing. People do when they get the cancer diagnosis is they run off to the internet, which is a terrible idea. All right. You should, you should put your bone in a lock box for at least a day or two because everybody runs and says, okay, what are my chances?

Like it’s Vegas. You know, what are my chances of survival? And they look at these numbers and sometimes, you know, if you get like stage two, stage three colon cancer or whatever, and they go, Oh gosh, this is terrible. But they don’t understand what those numbers actually were for. They’re research numbers, not, you know, what are your chances of surviving?

They’re numbers based on five years. If I treat this guy with this, as opposed to this, you know, we’re going to get better or worse outcomes. And that’s all comers. So if you take a guy who has, you know, Stage two prostate cancer, right? And you say, it’s [00:22:00] got X survival rate. That’s everybody. That’s the guy who’s 90 years old and just got diagnosed.

It’s the guy with 500 comorbidities. That’s the guy who doesn’t believe in medicine. It’s not going to treat and you. So everybody’s cancer journey is real. individual. So looking at those numbers can really, like you were talking about aversion, that can scare you from a winnable fight. So, you know, make sure those don’t run to the internet’s worst place to go.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, Dr. Google is not your friend in this case, right? You want to actually go to a

Kerry Forrestal: hear my favorite Dr. Google

Scott DeLuzio: Go ahead, yeah, please.

Kerry Forrestal: Guy comes in and it’s for a headache is the triage thing. So I go in and there’s a guy with an echinacea teabag hanging out of his nose. I’m like, sir, I’m Dr. Forstall, how can I help? And you know, hang on a second, I had a headache, alright, what’s with this?

And he says, well, I looked on the internet and it said echinacea tea bag in the nose would help the headache. [00:23:00] I’ll bite, did it? He goes, no. I was like, how long has it been there? You know, three, four days, the wife goes, a week, you know, and by the time we got it out, it had almost abscessed into his brain,

Scott DeLuzio: Wow,

Kerry Forrestal: you know, and it was a mess.

I mean, you know, we get this thing out, well, the thing that came behind it was just God awful, you know, and now he’s on antibiotics and is it going to get him or is it not going to get him? Because he listened to Dr. Google, you know, Google is a repository of garbage and knowledge. And unless you know what you’re looking at, you’re not going to know which is which.

Scott DeLuzio: right. And, yeah, it’s, it’s the, the sum of the world’s knowledge and not all of its good. Right.

Kerry Forrestal: Yeah, no, it’s true. And there’s the, the guys in there trying to sell you stuff that looks like knowledge, you know, and you know, we just actually had a friend of mine come back from, um, he, he had to grab his father from Tijuana. Gentleman, unfortunately has stage four cancer. He’s a friend of mine. So this isn’t a HIPAA thing.

This is, you know, he was not my, my particular patient, but, uh, he just came back. The father had stage [00:24:00] four. He was told, I’m sorry, you’ve reached the limits of our therapy. This isn’t going to work out. So they, So Went off to, um, they went off down south to Tijuana where they got mistletoe infusions by IV and red light therapy and all for tens of thousands of dollars.

And he is still going to, actually he’s probably going to die a little sooner because they overloaded him with fluid and now he’s having problems breathing.

Scott DeLuzio: Mm.

Kerry Forrestal: So, you know, it’s one of those things that, um, you know, Google is just, don’t just

Scott DeLuzio: Just

Kerry Forrestal: to your doctor, talk to your doctor, read my book and don’t, don’t stay away from the internet.

It’s not good.

Scott DeLuzio: Right. Yeah. And I think that goes for a lot of things, but especially when you’re talking about something as, as serious as, as cancer can be, um, you want to, you want to make sure you’re, you’re talking to the experts and not just, you know, Some guy with a blog who threw some teabag, uh, you know, nonsense out there and, um, it’s kind of crazy, but, [00:25:00] um, in your book, do you, do you talk about anything dealing with either the emotional mental health impacts of a cancer diagnosis?

And, um, you know, how, how does that impact people? I got to imagine there’s a pretty significant impact there, but, uh, how do you

Kerry Forrestal: It’s, um, you know, it’s your whole world is upended when, when you get the diagnosis, you are living a different life for a while

Scott DeLuzio: Mm hmm.

Kerry Forrestal: and you’ll find out who your friends are. People you never expected to, will rally to you and people you thought would never let you down or, or a ghost. You know, they’re just, they’re just in the wind.

And, you know, it, it’s a very defining thing when you go through it, you know, that you, you do know who you can rely on, who you can’t. And the interpersonal relations, you know, first thing, uh, I, there, there’s this notion that you have to be this, you know, happy warrior, you know, I’m going to be inspiring and, you know, Be who you are.

You know, you’re going to have good days. You’re going to have bad days. There are going to be meltdowns. There’s going to be shouting. Sometimes there’s going to be tears. [00:26:00] Own it all. It’s going to happen to you. And there’s nothing shameful about it. There’s nothing wrong about it. You’re going through one of the most challenging things of your life, you know, and I strongly advise people to get counseling.

You know, to say, even if you’re one of those kind of squared away people, and you know, I got the, all I get, I say it this way. If you get dropped into a new city, is it easier to find your way around with a guide or without? You have somebody who knows the city, knows the kind of ins and outs, stay away from that neighborhood.

This neighborhood’s good. The good eats are over there. All that stuff. Going with a counselor, no matter how good you are at keeping yourself together, going with a counselor like a guide is going to get you through it better, faster, and you’ll be stronger at the end. You know, if you blunder around, maybe you’ll do okay, maybe, but this may not be a time for maybe.

Scott DeLuzio: Right. Yeah. And, and to your, your analogy there, yeah, if you go to a new city, sure, you may end up at the great restaurant and you may avoid the bad neighborhoods or [00:27:00] parts of the neighborhood. Um, you may, um, you may do all of that on your own, but you also may not. It’s kind of a coin toss, right? You don’t know what you’re going to end up getting.

Right. But, but if you have that guide who is showing you the right way, keeping you on the right path, um, Not letting you veer off course. You’re going to have a lot better time with that. Right. Um, now I’ve talked to some people who have had cancer or other, you know, serious, uh, medical diagnosis that.

Afterwards, they said it was one of the best things that could have happened to them. Um, it gave them, uh, from a mental health perspective, not a physical health perspective, but, um, it gave them a new perspective on, on life. Right. Um, and I’m not, Suggesting that people go out there who maybe are struggling with mental health and like trying to figure out How do I get [00:28:00] myself some cancer and you know go hang out by the nuclear power plant or something and you just can constantly You know bombard themselves with stuff that that’s gonna get them cancer.

I’m not suggesting that at all What I’m what I’m suggesting though is that That mindset shift, uh, that, that someone develops, um, might be that, that crucial piece that allowed them to survive in the first place. Um, you know, they, they may not have had the fight in them before that mindset shift. And then, then that, that mindset, there’s a, I don’t know, a switch or something that, that, uh, goes off in their head.

And, and they’re like, you know what? Screw this cancer. I’m, I’m, I’m going to fight it. Right?

Kerry Forrestal: Yeah, the resilience. Again, this goes back to people are more resilient. And when, when this comes knocking at the door and one third of women and one half of men are going to have this happen, this is, this is for a lot of people, you [00:29:00] know, it’s, it’s, it’s going to be a reality. It cleanses the life. You know, as you go through it again, friends fall away and new ones, Ryan, you, you, you have faced the dragon.

You know, you have faced this thing. That’s just, wow. You know, that we’re in our society. Oh, cancer. And you’ve come through it. You’re coming through it. And you realize, Holy, you know, I have strength that never, I never knew I had. And you know, people are, you know, you see people who get through this and they’re, you know, they really are.

They take off. I mean, they just have this new leash. You know, this new lease on life that it’s just like, okay, so what am I afraid of?

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Yeah.

Kerry Forrestal: Right. And so, yeah, it’s a cancer for, for people who survive. Some people, it’s hard. They’re always looking over their shoulder. They’re always worried. They’re become anxious. And that, that’s true. And, and, but more often, I think, and, and again, I don’t have numbers to back this up. This is just my [00:30:00] personal experience.

You know, it’s like, yeah, let’s, you know, only got so much time, you know, eventually, eventually the bill comes due. So why not make great use of time that we have left? They almost, I almost lost all this time every day after that. Is gravy.

Scott DeLuzio: Sure. Yeah. That’s a good way to think of it too. Right now. I know we talked about some of the preventative measures that you could take as far as the pre screening and, and, and all that type of stuff, uh, to, to detect it earlier. Um, what about some of the preventative measures that can help, um, help prevent cancer from occurring in the first place?

Are there things that you talk about, uh, as far as any of those types of things?

Kerry Forrestal: Yeah, there’s, um, first I’ll say a lot of the scams focus on that sort of, you know, oh, if you drink the P, you know, the basic water, you’ll stop. Oh, that’s all nonsense, right? If you drink basic water, if you bring the basic pH water, it goes into a vat of acid in your stomach and it’s neutralized. Right? So there’s all [00:31:00] that nonsense that goes on, but there are things that you can do.

Exercise, diet, you know, it’s astonishing how many people smoke still, right? So I’ve, for any of the smokers out here, I’ll give you a great one. You know, smoking is bad for you. You don’t need me. You’re an adult. You don’t need me to wag a finger at you, but try this. If you work for 15 an hour and you smoke a pack a day.

You give your boss six weeks of your life to afford your smokes. You give away six weeks of your life to ruin your health. What would you do with, in Maryland, it would be about 3, 600 and you’d have six weeks to spend it. Man, you could go to Disney in Europe in style for that. You know, I mean, if you got kids and all like that.

So smoking is, I mean, okay, you know, it’s expensive, but it’s time out of your life. So, things like smoking, and vaping does not get you off the hook with tobacco products. It’s not, no, it’s just not. We haven’t had the experience as long as we have with tobacco, but the [00:32:00] numbers are starting to look like it’s no better.

So, you know, that sort of thing. Other things, you know, the simpler things, um, is old lifestyle. You know, exercise, reasonable food. There’s a growing body of literature about our environment and its impact on cancer. We see the cancer rates are going up, up, up. We live in a very toxified environment, you know, we know we everybody’s seen the commercial of Camp Lejeune, right?

All this the benzene and all those other things and that that’s a real microcosm of the other stuff that’s going on We’ve got the forever plastics. We eat a lot of processed food those chemicals called cause gut inflammation and we’re learning more and more that processed foods may not be You know, so wonderful, you know, so watch your diet, shop around the outside of the supermarket, right?

Most supermarkets, it’s produce, dairy, meat, right? So just go ahead and they’re the only thing in the middle, coffee. You can’t live without coffee. I’m with that, right? So, but, um, you know, in a healthy lifestyle, you know, get some sunshine, get some exercise, all those [00:33:00] things, stay away from the toxic stuff, uh, like smoking.

Um, if you use drugs, please don’t, you know, there’s, there’s nothing good there. Um, yeah. You know, and those are really, it’s really a, who’s it? Jefferson said, you know, let, let sunshine be, let sunshine in medicine be, or sunshine and exercise and food be your, your medicine,

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And those, those things make sense too, because for sure, if, just think about the grocery store, any grocery store you go into, like you said, they’re, they’re mostly set up the same way with the, the healthier options on the outside of the store. Right. And in the middle of the store tends to be the not so healthy options.

Kerry Forrestal: not so healthy stuff. Yup. Except for coffee.

Scott DeLuzio: yeah. So if, yeah. If you need that coffee fix, then, then sure, you can venture into the middle of the store, uh,

Kerry Forrestal: It’s coffee, I swear.

Scott DeLuzio: right, right. Um, you know, but, but sure, you know, like everything else on, on the inside, yeah, [00:34:00] you might want those cookies or, you know, other snacks and

Kerry Forrestal: in moderation.

Scott DeLuzio: right?

You may want those, but think about long term, um, you know, what is that actually getting you, right? You’re, you’re, you’re. You have that short term pleasure by having those snacks, um, but long term, that may lead you to fighting a pretty difficult battle. And so, you know, and everybody’s going to have to make that decision on their own, right?

So, like you said, I’m not going to sit here and wag my finger at you and say, don’t eat this, don’t do that. Hey. Hell, I do it too. So it’s not like I’m, I’m not going to be sitting here on, you know, uh, you know, you know, up on my soapbox telling people what to do. Um, I’m just putting the information out there and, and you do with it what you will.

Um, you know, I, I do it. I think, um, you kind of have to weigh the cost versus the benefits of, of all of this stuff. And, and that, and, and if you can make like one [00:35:00] small change, it’s like, okay, well, you know what? Maybe I don’t need those Oreos and I can cut those out, you know, and I can move on to the next thing and the next thing.

And, and then over time you get healthier and healthier as, as you start cutting out some of those things. Right. So I’m not saying wholesale go cold Turkey and stay outside of the middle of the grocery store forever. Um, you know, like.

Kerry Forrestal: you can have a couple of cookies, don’t have them all,

Scott DeLuzio: exactly. You know, take it in moderation. Exactly.

Kerry Forrestal: the one thing I have heard that people who have kind of watched the actual money with the smoking, they put it in a jar and they wash it accumulates. And it becomes more and more of a motivation, you know, for people as well. Look at all that money.

I mean, it’s, I think 11 bucks a pack now in Maryland,

Scott DeLuzio: That’s

Kerry Forrestal: you know, I mean, how do you afford that?

Scott DeLuzio: Right. Right.

Kerry Forrestal: but anyway, so I grew up in a family of smokers, but I never smoked myself. So don’t know how that happened.

Scott DeLuzio: That’s probably a good thing, um, you know, for, for you, right? Um, there’s actually, [00:36:00] uh, an exhibit that, that I, I went to a little while ago that it was called the, the bodies, uh, exhibit. And they, they literally have bodies in this, this exhibit. And, and, um, they, they, uh, showed the difference between a healthy, uh, lung and then a smoker’s lung.

And, and the difference between those were, it was just the dark, it looked like, just like beef jerky almost. Like it was, it was

Kerry Forrestal: I know exactly what you’re talking

Scott DeLuzio: Dark, gross mass, um, where there should have been some healthy, you know, uh, tissue that, you know, there, and, and next to this, this exhibit where they had these things, um, they had this box, uh, like this clear, uh, plastic box with a little hole in the top, and it said, you can deposit your cigarettes and, you know, everything, and there’s, it was like full of cigarettes, uh, and, and packages because people were looking at it like, that’s what I’m actually doing to myself, holy crap, I’m done.

You know, um, you know, I don’t know how much that stuck, you know, longterm, but, um, God, I, I, hopefully that, that was a good [00:37:00] motivator, you know?

Kerry Forrestal: Yeah. It’s, it’s wild to think, especially with the smoking. It’s like, if you’re lucky, you get lung cancer.

Scott DeLuzio: Hmm.

Kerry Forrestal: Cause if we catch it early, we can cure lung cancer. If you get the other thing that tends to run with it, COPD, there’s no cure for that. And I tell people with, with this to say, if you really want to see what COPD feels like, take a deep breath, hold it as long as you can.

And at that moment where you can’t hold it anymore and you have to breathe, that’s what you’re going to feel like 24 seven.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s not a good feeling. You don’t, you don’t want that. I mean, I don’t even want to do that right now just for the one time that you suggested, you know? Uh, but nevermind having to do that 24 hours a day for the rest of your life. Right. Um, that’s. That sounds awful. Um, you know, it’s almost like having an elephant sitting on your chest, and good luck, you know, trying to breathe

Kerry Forrestal: they put more nicotine in the cigarettes to, to make it more addictive. They’re manufacturing it. If you have people in your audience who don’t like being, you know, kind of gotten over [00:38:00] on, they’re getting over on you hard because the execs down there aren’t smoking the product. They’re driving the BMWs on your money,

Scott DeLuzio: Mm

Kerry Forrestal: you know, but they’re not smoking the product.

Scott DeLuzio: Sure. Yeah, and, and so, so you’re going to have a harder time, uh, getting yourself away from that stuff because they’re making it more addictive. Um, and I, I think that, that probably goes, uh, very much for a lot of the processed foods that are out there as well. They’re not, it’s not nicotine that they’re putting in there, but it’s the sugars and the salts

Kerry Forrestal: all those things to keep us addicted.

Scott DeLuzio: exactly. So the more of that that you have, the less likely it’s going to be that you’re going to be able to just walk away from that, that type of stuff too. So, um, so the more you have, the more you’re going to have. I

Kerry Forrestal: Yes. No, that’s a good way to put it. I like that.

Scott DeLuzio: um, and so are there outside of your book, um, which I love talking about, um, and, and I’m going to put some information in the show notes so people can get a copy of the book.

But, uh, outside of the book, are there any other [00:39:00] like resources or organizations, um Apart from what we’ve talked about already, uh, that you’d recommend for folks to check out who might be dealing with a cancer diagnosis. Obviously, going to their, their doctor and, and, and talking with them, uh, is going to be a great resource.

But are there any other, uh, organizations out there that you are familiar with that, uh, you think might be a good, good stop for people to check out?

Kerry Forrestal: Yeah. I did some research here. Uh, cause I was, I was kind of curious about what, what I didn’t know about with this. I’ll tell you the one I knew about that I always love to share is one of the best kept secrets in the United States is the 2 1 1 network. So everybody knows 9 1, right? 2 1 1. If you dial 2 1 1 from anywhere in the United States, you will be connected to a resource line that will locate to your zip code.

So I actually tried this. I was doing some research for the book and I did a 2 1 1 and explained to the guy, I’m an author, I’m doing some research. Let’s say I was going through cancer care and I was having [00:40:00] problems paying my bills. Who could you connect me with? And he gives me the name of four people like Salvation Army and Del Mar Department like that.

And he says, there are these programs. And I know about these programs because I work in the ER and we deal with these trying to get our patients connected with them. So they met. So I said, okay, now if I’m a military vet, what else do you have for me? And right on it. So 211. It will connect you to a really significant resource about, you know, maybe to help you pay your bills or what is out there.

You know, then I started, I did a little research and there were a few really interesting ones. Have you ever heard of Emmerman’s Angels?

Scott DeLuzio: I haven’t, no.

Kerry Forrestal: So this is a really, this is a gentleman, military guy, um, 2006 was diagnosed, uh, with cancer and he really felt isolated. He didn’t, there was nobody to connect with. So he created a mentoring program, right?

So he is, he will connect you if you have prostate or lung or, or whatever, he’ll connect you [00:41:00] with somebody, or they will now, cause it’s gotten to be quite a big organization. They will connect you with somebody who has, Or had your kind of cancer and somebody you can talk to say, Hey, look, this is what I’m going through.

Who’s been there?

Scott DeLuzio: Mm hmm.

Kerry Forrestal: You know, so Emmerman is spelled I M E R M A N, Angels, right? Now I’ll send you the link to what I had. So there were those guys, of course, Wounded Warrior, um, Zero Prostate Cancer Veterans. American Cancer Society is one that, I don’t know if people look on that as a, um, they look on it as an informational resource, but it may be more resources than you’re aware.

So, you know, you can reach out to those folks. There are a lot of local, um, resources. Uh, there’s some local to us, you know, that are just kind of work in our area. Um, and I’m sure there will be for, um, uh, your listeners wherever they happen to be. Um, there is a, like a Ronald McDonald House kind of thing.

It’s called. Fisher House Foundation. Uh, and I have the information here. It says provides free, comfortable homes for military and veterans [00:42:00] families to stay while a loved one is being treated at the hospital or VA. So there’s, there’s that as well. And I’ll send you that information. There’s disabled veterans, American veterans.

And so there are a lot of ones. There’s the pink fund, which was interesting. I ran across these guys at a conference. Um, they will help breast cancer patients with their mortgages and, and those sorts of things. So there’s a lot of help out there because, I say very frequently when I teach, uh, everybody has a cancer story.

Everybody’s been affected. Um, and there are a lot of people who want to help and there is a lot of help out there. So, you know, this goes back to, again, the army at our back, right? There, there’s a lot of help out there. So people should not feel in any way alone.

Scott DeLuzio: Well, and I think that, that should also give some folks some hope too, because, uh, like you said, there’s a lot of doom and gloom out there in, uh, you know, media and books and, and things like that, where, you know, in talking about cancer, it just sounds like it’s a immediate death sentence, which [00:43:00] it’s not, right?

Kerry Forrestal: And it’s not, it’s not Ohno, it’s, Oh yeah,

Scott DeLuzio: yeah,

Kerry Forrestal: you want to come at me, you know, I’ll do this New York for you. You want to come at me, you’re going to have to talk to my friends, you know, and it really, it is a hopeful time. I mean, it is one of the things that I had a problem with when I was writing the book, when I got to the immunotherapy section, was that it was moving so fast.

They were finding so many new things that it was really, you know, every time I went back to revise the chapter, there was something new. And I’m like, okay, well, include that. But now I have to edit it and send it to the guy to make sure I’m on, you know, cause I had two different editors for the book. One was technical.

One was actual grammar, like expecting an ER doctor to use proper grammar. I mean, so it was a moving target the whole time. There’s no way to keep up with the stuff that’s going on. So, you know, it is a, it is absolutely A hopeful time. We are getting better and better. And those, like I said, those books, Gilda Radner’s [00:44:00] book was amazing.

It was an, it was the first one I read. It’s, it’s called It’s Always Something. And she’s a comedian married to Gene Wilder, another comedian, is amazingly well written. You know, um, uh, When Breath Becomes Air, Ron’s, but you know, uh, what was it, Randy Pausch’s Last Lecture? Amazing books, but everybody dies in the end. You know, that’s not the reality of cancer in this day and age. We’re getting better and better and better at

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and I think that’s the important thing to take away here too, is that there is hope that it’s not an immediate death sentence, but you do have to deal with it. Do something, right? It is a fight. You do have to, uh, you do have to participate in that fight. It’s not, it’s not a passive, uh, thing, uh, you know, you, you do have to, to work at it, so, um, so I, I think that, that is encouraging, though, for, for the folks, uh, who might be out there dealing with this, or maybe have a family member or friend who, who’s dealing with it, um, is that there is hope out there, and, and they [00:45:00] can, you know, They can beat this.

For the listeners who want to grab a copy of your book, where can they go to first off get a copy or find out more information about you and the type of work that you do.

Kerry Forrestal: Sure. So the book is available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. Um, and, uh, at the website, uh, www. crushingcancerthebook. com, all of the downloads for the book, which are, uh, for example, uh, downloads for, you know, how to keep track of what you need to ask your doctor, your medical stuff. Um, a lot of the forms to kind of take care of your finances are all free of charge.

You can have them. They’re yours. Um, so there’s a lot of information, a lot of links on the pay again, uh, crushing cancer, the book. com. Um, so you can read more about what we’re trying to do. We’re going to be coming out with a second edition here. We’ve been talking with a large medical publisher who’s taken an interest.

So that’s good. Um, uh, yeah. [00:46:00] And like I said, go to that website and you’ll learn a lot about what we’re trying to do. We are trying to reach out to the firefighters. Um, we have some stuff going on up in Boston. We’re hoping to present to, um, you know, the Boston firefighters and all the firefighters, you know, wherever, not just large cities, but everywhere.

Cause, you know, like I said, um, cancer affects them. Disproportionately, just like veterans. And we’re talking with the vets organizations. We did a presentation or I did a presentation, um, to the, uh, veterans organization here of VFW in Maryland. And it was actually interesting because I got done with it and they really just wanted to talk about the book.

So we did this, we talked about the book and they were great. And then he said, the women’s auxiliary, the auxiliaries next door, would you go do it again? And it was the first time I’ve ever had an encore performance of a lecture. So, but it, that’s, that’s what, that actually happened. It was great. They were, they were, both groups were great.

Um, so we’re trying to reach out to vets and we’re trying to reach out to firefighters. And of course, like I said, it’s, you know, one in [00:47:00] three women, one in two men, 2 million people this year are gonna need this information.

Scott DeLuzio: And that’s a lot of people, uh, who, who are going to need it. And then next year, next, the year after that, and you know, it’s going to keep going. So um, you know, that, that, unfortunately, um, that, that is the case right now. Um, hopefully we can get more people, uh, you know, along the lines of the preventative measures so that, that number comes down.

Um, but in the meantime. Um, let’s, let’s try to make the best of what we, the cards that we’ve been dealt. Right. Um, so this conversation has been amazing and I think, uh, it, it definitely will give some hope for some folks who might be, uh, struggling with a cancer diagnosis, whether it’s their own or somebody close to them.

Um, it gives them hope, uh, let, lets them know that They’re, they’re not alone. They have that big army behind them, uh, that they have resources available to them, uh, and, and that [00:48:00] people do actually give a damn and they’re going to, they’re going to work to help, uh,

Kerry Forrestal: If, if anybody needs to talk or has questions, reach out through the website. You know, I’m always happy to talk to whoever. And if you want me to present to, you know, whatever group of people you have, I am happy to tell, I’m happy to preach. You know, this is, it’s important. Well informed people are going to make better choices and they’re going to have better outcomes.

Even on something is that we see culturally as scary as cancer, we can beat this. So

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. A hundred percent. Uh, it definitely is, uh, definitely is something that we can, can beat. Um, yeah. With the right tools in your tool belt, I think that that’s something that’s definitely possible. Um, and so, uh, Add this tool. Uh, Crushing Cancer is the book. Add that tool to your tool belt. Um, whether you need it now or maybe you might need it in the future.

You know, like you said, you have a family with a [00:49:00] history of cancer. Um, if that’s you and you haven’t had cancer yet, Um, it may be coming around, uh, you know, down the road. So you might want to, uh, kind of prepare yourself so that way you know what to do, uh, when that time comes. So grab a copy of the book.

I’ll put a link in the show notes for folks to grab a copy of the book. Um, and a link to the website as well, so that you can reach out or download any of those, uh, free resources that, uh, Gary was talking about just a minute ago. Um, but again, I want to thank you for, for all the work that you’re doing.

Um, uh, as far as, uh, You know, the, the medical, uh, or the emergency room and also for the book and, and the, the work that you’re doing in the cancer field. Um, really it’s, uh, you’re making a difficult journey for some of these folks, uh, uh, a little bit more manageable and,

Kerry Forrestal: I hope so.

Scott DeLuzio: you know, hoping that they will get the resources and the help that they need.

So thank you again.

Kerry Forrestal: Thank you.