Episode 472 Jay Wylie Overcoming Addiction and Homelessness as a Veteran Transcript
This transcript is from episode 472 with guest Jay Wylie.
Scott DeLuzio: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. Welcome back to Drive On. I’m your host, Scott DeLuzio. And today my guest is Jay Wylie. Jay is a Navy veteran who’s taken his own experiences to inspire and guide others by managing a recovery program for veterans and first responders. And this program has grown into a supportive community of veterans and recovery, reaching out to the San Diego community to aid fellow veterans out of homelessness, addiction, and despair.
And so today we’re going to talk about Jay’s journey and the impacts of his life changing program. But before we do that, Jay, welcome to the show. Really glad to have you here.
Jay Wylie: Well, thank you so much for having me. It’s great to be here.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, tell us a little bit about your experience in the Navy and your own journey to kind of recovery, uh, and how it shaped and motivated you to create this recovery program for veterans and first responders.
Jay Wylie: Yeah, you bet. Um, you know, we have to [00:01:00] go back a little bit. You know, I I grew up in a very small family and from a very young age, I decided that I wanted to be part of something bigger than myself. I wanted to be like the heroes I was seeing on TV. I grew up with, you know, John Wayne and James Bond and especially Pappy Boyington.
If you know anything about his story, you can kind of You know, I can’t foresee where I’m going with this because all, you know, something that those guys had in common is they, they like to drink. Um, but I saw them as heroes. I wanted to be your hero too. So from a very young age, I decided that I wanted to lead the adventure.
I wanted to be a Navy officer, military officer. And so I did everything I could do in junior high and high school to get an ROTC scholarship. And I got one. And so I went off to college and I had a Navy ROTC scholarship. But when I got there, you know, I had arrived. And I thought, I can do what I saw my heroes do, and what all the guys around me are doing, and [00:02:00] that was to drink.
If I’m being rigorously honest, I took my first drink because there was a senior girl I had a crush on. She thought it would be funny to get the freshman drunk, and so I drank anything that she put into my hands. Uh, my first drink was a grasshopper. I don’t think I’ve ever had one since, uh, but I pretty much finished everything that she handed me and I wound up throwing up over her balcony into the balcony of the apartment below.
So needless to say, she wasn’t very impressed, but I didn’t care because I had found this magic elixir that seemed to make all my problems go away. Now the problem was that, you know, in college I learned to drink as hard and as fast as I could because as an underage drinker, you never know where your next drink is coming from.
When I got into the Navy, I just continued that because you’re drinking port visit to port visit and um, and I just lost my amateur standing because now I had a paycheck. The problem was that this Navy thing was for real, right? Number one, I had people looking up to [00:03:00] me. I had people who expected me to take care of them.
And as a young officer, I took that incredibly seriously. It was not just, it was not just my job. It was not just my career. It was my identity. And, uh, and I also realized that, you know, a person could get hurt in this line of work. And in fact, you know, even before the wars, you know, there were operational accidents and people I graduated from college with were getting killed and, um, or hurt.
And, uh, it was, I found out. I didn’t realize it at the time, didn’t want to admit it at the time, but I found out that deep inside I’m a very fearful person. I have a lot of anxiety, but really that’s because I’m a perfectionist. So my life became fearing that a mission or an operation or an inspection was not going to go well, having it actually go pretty well because it turns out I was really good at my job when I was sober. And. Only seeing [00:04:00] the 10 percent that didn’t go right and feeling like a failure and having guilt and shame and remorse. And the only way I could turn off those feelings was to drink. Um, because I couldn’t do drugs because, you know, that’s bad. You know, we know that’s bad in the military, right? But drinking, oh, that’s fine.
And so, um, the problem was I was very good at my job. I was the number one, you know, guy at each of my commands. I kept getting promoted. I kept getting more and more responsibility. And that just meant more and more fear and more and more a sense of failure and guilt, shame and remorse. And that just meant I had to drink more.
And, um, the problem was I started, you know, drinking. I set up all these controls for my drinking. I’m not going to drink, you know, alone. I’m not going to drink on weekdays. And I just slowly rationalized and justified crossing every single one of those lines. And it just got worse and worse and worse. And I started becoming a, you know, a blackout drinker.
And all, [00:05:00] I said, all these near misses. Where I almost got into trouble so many times. Almost got into a fight with a senior chief when I was an XO on a ship, uh, at a club in Mayport. Um, You know, all these things and, and everybody covered for me because they liked me and I was good at my job. And so, you know, I’d be walking on the ship and, you know, a guy would come up to me and say, Hey, sir, you were really hilarious last night.
Ha ha ha. I had no idea what that guy was talking about. And it terrified me. And I said, okay, something’s wrong. I need to do something. And so I decided I was never, I just wasn’t going to drink in public anymore. And so I, you know, I’d go on, on, uh, Port visits. And I would essentially lock myself in a hotel room with as many bottles as I could carry.
It was like the Wolfman before a full moon. And, um, you know, that worked for a little while, but like I said, I was actually pretty good at my job and I ended up getting command. And so I wound up being the captain of a guided missile destroyer. We went on a seven month deployment. We, [00:06:00] we rescued a tanker that was under attack by pirates.
We, uh, destroyed pirate skiffs. We captured a bunch of guys. We. Rescued 55 mariners at sea. We did counterterrorism missions. Everything was very, very successful. Um, and everybody came home alive. And if they checked on board the ship with, uh, you know, ten fingers and ten toes, they got home with ten fingers and ten toes.
I’m very proud of that. And, uh, not everybody in my squadron can say that, unfortunately. And that, not that it was their fault. It’s just, you know, it’s the nature of war. But my, my point is that I was very good when I was sober. The problem was when my crew found out that I liked to drink. I never had an empty hand.
I let my guard down. I did. I made every mistake you could possibly mistake. I got myself in so much trouble. I broke every rule in the captain book on Liberty. You know. You know. Not tactically, not operationally, but behaviorally. And I wound up getting relieved of command and court martialed and asked to leave the Navy, you know, rather abruptly.[00:07:00]
But as painful as it was at the time, that was the best thing that ever happened to me, because that’s what it took to get me sober. And so I was able to raise my hand and say, I need some help. I went to the Navy’s 28 day outpatient treatment program. It’s called SARP. Substance Abuse Rehabilitation Program.
They introduced me to the 12 step community, and I’ve been, I’ve been sober ever since. That’s, that’s been over 13 years of sobriety. And when I first got home from the Navy, um, I tried to do some stuff in the defense industry. It was very unfulfilling. It was also very difficult. Because of the notoriety, the publicity of my fall and the nature of my discharge and all that other stuff.
And so, uh, I just felt like I was banging my head up against the wall. And I said, well, what else can I do? And I was really enjoying what I was doing in recovery. Um, you know, just, you know, In my own sobriety, and I said, maybe I can turn this into a mission, a new [00:08:00] identity, a new purpose. And that’s exactly what’s happened.
And so I, I connected with the folks here at Confidential Recovery. Uh, we connected with the VA, we got into network with the VA’s uh, community care network, and we work closely with the VA’s uh, alcohol drug treatment program, and, and basically now I’m able to share my experience, strength and hope with, with veterans who are encountering a lot of the same problems, a lot of the same challenges, and it’s, it’s been incredibly rewarding.
Scott DeLuzio: Well, thank you for sharing that piece of it, because I think that ties everything together, you know, kind of where, where you came from, uh, and, and how that all affected your, your outlook going through, and, and it seems to me like as you’re talking that, like, you know, one, one bad decision, you know, if you make that one bad decision, okay, You know, it’s probably not going to be the end of the world, but, but when that becomes a justification for that next bad decision, and then the [00:09:00] next one and the next one, and then it eventually, it starts to snowball and it becomes a huge issue, right?
Now, maybe had you not had the command that you had, um, and you were, you know, you got passed up on a promotion at somewhere along the line, uh, maybe it wouldn’t have, you know, Amplified the impact of, you know, how bad of a decision you might’ve been making. And, you know, who knows, maybe, maybe that moment where you said, Hey, I need to figure something out because this is definitely not right.
Uh, maybe that moment wouldn’t have happened. Right. And so to your point, that was kind of probably one of the best things that could have happened to you. And, you know, unfortunately, no. It was good and bad, you know, but now you’re out there and you’re doing the work to help other people who have, you know, similar problems and are struggling.[00:10:00]
Um, and you know, it’s, it’s. It’s turned out to be a good thing. Right. Um, so, so talk to us a little bit about the, the program that you, you’ve, you, you’re working with here. And, uh, you know, some of the aspects that you, you think maybe are the most impactful in helping the veterans.
Jay Wylie: Sure. Yeah. You know, it’s, it’s been, it’s funny. Um, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Just. The follow up on what you said, you know, one of the things that I’ve heard and I truly believe is sometimes the worst day of your life is the best thing that ever happens to you, which I think is, you know, has a lot of truth that you were, you’re right in the money.
And I, maybe, maybe that’s a good way to characterize our program. A lot of the Uh, staff that we have here. We’re small right now. We’re trying to grow, but we’re small. Most of our counselors are in recovery ourselves. Many of us are veterans. So, you know, we’re able to share that experience. And, you know, a lot of us have bad discharges or have had negative experiences in the military, and we understand what that’s like.
So there’s a lot of [00:11:00] empathy in what we do. It’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a very personal mission, which I think is one thing that sets us apart a little bit. The other thing is, You know, we’re intensive outpatient treatment program. So we have folks come here. We try and meet them where they’re at. We try and figure out what’s going on and, and what is their recovery goal.
You know, a lot of times people will come and say, well, I really have a problem with meth, but I’m still using cannabis. I’m not ready to give that up yet. Okay, let’s, let’s talk about the meth first. And then, you know, maybe someday we’ll, we’ll broach that cannabis thing. And we try and give them tools. to help them recover.
We use cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectic behavioral therapy, mindfulness, um, introduction to 12 steps, introduction to smart recovery. We try and bring all the possible tools we can. And we try and bring in the rest of the veteran community too. We’re part of the San Diego Veterans Coalition. As I said, we’re connected with the VA.
So we bring in different practitioners who might do aquatic therapy, equine therapy, art therapy, music therapy. [00:12:00] We have a veteran poet who comes here and does a little poetry Workshop for an hour. We do meditation. We do yoga and mindfulness. We have relationships with young people in recovery and the Phoenix and all these other groups that do different things.
We try and bring them all there and say, what resonates with you? What’s working for you? And sometimes, you know, a vet will be like, this meditation mumbo jumbo is just not for me. But then they get in the pool for aquatic therapy and That’s it. Or, Hey, I’m not a, I’m not into the spirituality stuff, you know, 12 stuff stuff, but smart recovery is for them sometimes.
If we can just encourage them to not have contempt before investigation and get them to put their toe in the water a little bit, they find out it’s, it’s actually better than they think and not so scary. And the big thing is we use a group, right? So we’re doing it together and that makes it a lot less scary too.
We’ve created what we think is a safe place. You know, we had these, this [00:13:00] veteran come here and, um, he, it was a Thursday night and I was doing his introduction, gave him the tour. He sat down. Everything was great. And, and, uh, The next Thursday night, so you know, one week later, he’s only, he’s only been here like two or three times, I’m, I’m bringing a new veteran.
And when it comes to his turn to introduce himself, he says, this place has changed my life. And I’m looking at this cat like, how is that possible? You’ve been here like three times. And he said, before I was here, I was alone and I’m not alone. And then the guy next to him says, yeah, this is a safe place.
And both of those dudes were Marine officers in their past life. I mean, so, you know, that, that really resonated with me. That was an indication we’re doing something right. The other indication we were doing something right is at the end of our program, I can’t get people to leave. They, they, they want to stay here.
And so, um, [00:14:00] I, I tried to get more time from the VA for them and the VA said, Hey man, they can’t stay in treatment forever. And so, you know, the boss and I looked at each other and we kind of said, well, why not? And so we created an alumni group. So now we have this small, but growing community of veterans and recovery.
And, uh, the first generation we’ve been, we’ve been in network with the VA since 2019. That first generation of veterans is now over three years sober, many of them, not all of them. I mean, we certainly don’t have 100 percent success rate, but I think we have higher than average. And I think it’s because we keep people connected.
And so that group of veterans is Staying together as alumni and so every week we have an alumni meeting where we get together and once a month we have an alumni barbecue where we invite our alumni back and then we have, we introduce them to our current veterans and they’re able to share their, their hope, strength and experience and, uh, that’s been really successful.
It’s been really powerful. And the final [00:15:00] iteration of all this is that in addition to the treatment program, we have a confidential recovery. We started a nonprofit. Call the Veterans Navigation Center. And essentially the concept there is that we’re training some of these alumni to be peer support specialists so that a Veteran in the community can call in and talk to one of these, we call them a Veteran Peer Navigator.
But this Veteran Peer Navigator gets to know that Veteran he’s calling in, gets them to come in person, builds a little trust, and then tries to do like a holistic assessment. Hey. I’d like to get to know the whole you. I want to make sure I’m not missing anything. Ask them a few simple questions, layman’s terms, you know, Do you have food?
Do you have a place to live? Do you have a job? Do you want a better job? Do you think maybe you have a problem with drugs and alcohol? Are you thinking of maybe hurting someone or yourself? And if they say yes to anything, we say, Hey, I noticed you had a concern with X. Can we help you with X? Yeah, you called me about why.
Can we get, can we look at this problem too? And, and a lot of times we get down to root [00:16:00] causes. We get down to the, you know, a lot of guys will call us, hey, I want to get my discharge upgraded. And we’ll say, okay, do you mind if I ask why you got that bad discharge? I really like meth. Hmm. Maybe we can help you with that because that seems like that problem is going to keep going, right?
So, um, and then that, that veteran peer navigator now becomes a shipmate, a battle buddy, wingman, whatever you want to call it, accountability partner, sponsor, and stays engaged with that veteran to help encourage them to stay on the, on the path. A lot of times, you know, we’ll provide resources and the veteran will say, you know, we’ll follow up with the veteran and say, did you call, you know, Billy Bob from Joe’s fix it shop, you know, like we suggested?
And they’ll say, no. And we’ll say, why not? And they’ll say, the answer is, well, I was scared. And it’s like, yeah, totally, I get that, come on in, we’ll call them together, right? You have to dial the numbers, it’s really important, you’ve got to participate in your own recovery, but I’m going to be sitting here right next to you and if you hear something you don’t hear, I’m going to catch you, you’re not alone.
And so the two groups work hand in glove, Veterans Navigation Center [00:17:00] over here dealing with all of life stuff, uh, benefits, insurance, uh, legal, family, whatever, so if someone comes to Confidential Recovery and does other stuff. We can push them over to Veterans Navigation Center. If someone comes to Veterans Navigation Center for other stuff and they have a substance use issue, we can get them through the VA back over to Confidential Recovery.
And the two groups, they just sustain each other. And the alumni from Confidential Recovery. And then, of course, we have a career path to become a peer support specialist through Veterans Navigation Center. So, it’s not fully baked yet. I’ll be the first to admit we’re just trying it out, but we’re just trying to build something.
You know, build a little bit better model so that we’re not missing anything and that we’re supporting veterans in any way we can.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And I like the approach where you’re, you’re looking at, you know, The big picture, right? Because I don’t know too many people and, and, you know, maybe I’m, maybe I’m wrong on this, but I don’t know too many people when they’re, they’re young, they’re, they’re thinking to themselves, Hey, you know what, I want to be addicted to [00:18:00] fill in the blank when I grow up, you know, that’s, that’s not the, you know, the typical, you know, kindergarten, you know, whatever, you know, uh, mindset.
It’s, you know, I want to be, you know, a policeman. I want to be a firefighter. I want to be a, you know, whatever. I want to, I want to be something right. But addicted is not that thing that people want. Right. And so there, a lot of times the, the substance abuse that goes on, whether it’s drugs, alcohol, whatever, is like what you were saying.
It was kind of like masking over some. underlying issue. And if you can tackle that underlying issue, well, then the desire, the need for the substance that they’re going after may be reduced as well. You know, it may not be, I don’t know, you know, that everybody is going to be a little bit different, but that may help to be like, Hey, well, I don’t, I don’t have to cover up this feelings of insecurity or whatever, but with, with all the alcohol and be blackout drunk.[00:19:00]
Um, I, Um, I’m doing okay with, on that side of things. Um, but then also having the group of, you know, the alumni, the, the people who’ve gone through the program and they’ve been sober for several years now. Um, I know like just going into high school when you’re a freshman and give that example that you were talking about where it’s like, okay, well you had that senior, uh, you know, you were, you were the freshman.
It’s like, well, Shoot, I want to be like that and I want to be like that, that senior and I’ll do anything to be like that senior. Okay. Well, let’s, let’s take a, uh, you know, maybe a more positive role model and put that in front of you and say, Hey, look, these people, they were in your shoes just a few years ago.
Now they’ve, they’ve kind of gotten through that hurdle and now look what they’re doing and they’re, they’re doing things, uh, successfully. They, they have a job, they have a, you know, things are going well. Now that gives like a [00:20:00] little bit of motivation to be like, well, shoot, I want to be like that, you know, and so I like that, that approach that I think that program, uh, or both programs and how you describe how they, they work together, uh, I, I think that is a nice approach to get people through, uh, you know, not, not just, you know, Not drinking for 60 days or whatever.
And then getting back and drinking again, all over again, you know, getting them on a track where they don’t need that in their lives. Right.
Jay Wylie: know, it’s funny. There’s, there’s some folks who when you remove the underlying problem, um, that really helps manage their, their substance use, um, because they were using it to, to medicate about 15 percent of the population. Or more, uh, also has the addiction. So, so you have two problems. I’m drinking because I, of, of how I feel, but once I stop, [00:21:00] once I start drinking, I can’t stop.
So, so we’re trying to give them tools to live on life on life’s terms. Uh, basically I need to be able to cope with. I want to deal with the world around me in a healthy way so that I don’t have to turn to the substance, number one. But number two, you’re right. Once I’ve removed the substance from my life, I need to keep it removed because, um, if I were to go back to it, I would go back to the same negative behaviors, negative cycles.
So, so you really want to address both. If, if I just take away the substance. The person is miserable because they can’t cope with life. If I just give them the tools to cope with life, and we don’t take away the substance, eventually the substance will be a problem in and of itself. So, um, you know, it’s a win win philosophy.
The great thing is that the, the, the, the, The tactics, techniques, and procedures that we’re giving the folks, uh, are, are, [00:22:00] are good for both. They’re good for both. And, and, and I think that’s the thing is we, we both, we focus both on physical sobriety, but also on emotional sobriety, right? So, um, so you’re just a little bit more comfortable in your own skin.
And it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a change in perspective. It’s a little bit more balanced in your life, you know, new way of looking at things. And, um, You know, I’m a satisfied customer, right? I’ve
Scott DeLuzio: Yep.
Jay Wylie: used it, I’m not only the Hair Club president, I’m also a member, I like the fact that it’s worked in my life, and I like being able to share that with others, but, you know, to your point, uh, yeah, it’s not, people misunderstand treatment and think it’s, hey, 60 days, I’m good.
No, it’s going to be a lifetime commitment. Um, in order to stay in remission, you need to continue to take your medicine, kind of like diabetes, right? I’ve got to continue to take insulin. But the great news is, [00:23:00] man, if you stay in remission, you can have a great life, and in a much, uh, more, uh, Satisfying, contented life because the things that happen in life don’t bother you as much because you have all these coping strategies and you have this, this fellowship.
You have this group of others in recovery that, that you can stay connected with. But if you don’t practice it, yeah, you can lose it. And, and that’s why I, you know, I love doing what I do because I get to stay in the practice on a daily basis. It’s a little selfish to be honest with you.
Scott DeLuzio: Sure, but at the same time, you’re also helping however many people and that’s, I think, the selfless part of it is that you’re able to, you know, there’s a give and take there, right? Sure. You get to, you get some benefit, you get to enjoy your job. Uh, I don’t, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.
If, if people, if people only had to work jobs that they hated, that we wouldn’t get much accomplished. So, [00:24:00] uh,
Jay Wylie: Well, the thing they say in the 12 step community is if you sponsor somebody, right, and that sponsor goes out and doesn’t stay sober, you can still say, well, I stayed sober. So, so, so that’s, that’s, that’s kind of what I’m getting at. But, but you’re right. It’s, it’s a very, um, it’s a rewarding career and it is great to see, you know, the success stories for sure.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, for sure. Um, now the, the program doesn’t just work with addictions, right? It also works with, uh, homelessness issues and things like that as well. Right.
Jay Wylie: Right. Well, so the, The treatment part, confidential recovery, is pretty much focused on substance use disorder and helping people with that. The Veterans Navigation Center, absolutely, you’re 100 percent right. What we’ve started to do is we’ve started to go out into the community and and what we’re trying to do is we have a message.
So, you know, we’re part of the recovery community. We’re part of the veterans community. [00:25:00] We’re now trying to get out, well, first of all, we’re trying to introduce those two communities to each other. Hey, veterans, if you know somebody who’s got an issue, we know people who can help. Hey, recovery people, if you’ve got a veteran with issues, have them talk to us.
Maybe, maybe we’re a better fit because we speak veteran. Now we’re trying to go out into the general public. Community and say, hey, if you encounter someone, let’s screen for veteran status. And what I mean by that is don’t ask him, are you a veteran? Ask him, have you ever served in the military? Because there’s a lot of veterans out there who may not really consider themselves veterans.
You know, I just served in the seventies, you know, it doesn’t count. I didn’t see combat or, you know, a lot of times. Yeah, my career did not end well. You know, I had a bad discharge, so I’m not going to get anything. That’s not true. You know, sometimes it is, but a lot of times it’s not. The rules have changed a lot.
We learned the hard way with how we [00:26:00] treated the Vietnam era veterans, and so many of them had, you know, bad discharges, but they did amazing things in their service, and they just ended it poorly, right? Or, you know, they got caught in the drug thing. So,
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Right.
Jay Wylie: so we’re trying to make a lot of that right, and so we’re saying Screen for that status, and if you find someone who served in the military, have them give us a call.
We may not be the right fit, we may not have the right answers, but maybe we can connect them with somebody who does, right? That’s all we’re trying to do is create those connections. And then the other part of that, uh, is if that person says yes, I’m in the military, Consider doing a suicide screening.
What the VA tells us is that 80 percent of the veterans who die by suicide have never asked for help. If we can get inside that loop, right, that decision loop, and convince that veteran it’s okay to ask for help, we might save a lot of lives. So, that’s our message. But the other part [00:27:00] to your point about homelessness is we’re trying to go to homeless events because we’re seeing there are so many veterans there are.
who are in homelessness and have given up hope. And so if we can be there and encourage them to accept the help, right, to, to consider, um, reconnecting with the VA. And sometimes there’s lots of barriers that they’ve encountered in the past. Maybe we can help them overcome some of those barriers. Um, and, and, but the, the thing is we have to go where they are.
We can’t wait for them to come to us. And the other part is that we have to accept the fact that they may not be willing to accept our help at first. So, you know, we have to be a little patient, but a lot of times we plant the seeds and then weeks, even months later, hey, they’re ready. And the thing is that a lot of those veterans who are experiencing homelessness, the barrier is substance use.
And [00:28:00] so that might be the way that we get them. Back on track.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And I was going to mention that too, is that, uh, from my experience talking with other people who have been in some of these circumstances that oftentimes those go hand in hand and that, uh, you know, it’s not a hundred percent, but
Jay Wylie: and it can be a chicken and egg argument. It could be that I, I, I got homeless and that introduced me to substances, right? It’s not always substance use leading to homelessness, but at the end of the day, that could be the thing that’s preventing you from getting back on track.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, exactly. Right. If you, if you can’t get a job because you’re, you’re on, you know, XYZ, you know, substances that, you know, it, that’s going to cause some issues and, uh, that’s going to prevent you from being able to find a place to live and, and all the other things that go along with it. And it just, it’s, it snowballs.
Right. And, and kind of like what we’re talking with your story, uh, [00:29:00] how, yeah. You know, one decision led to another, and led to another, and it snowballed out of, out of control. And,
Jay Wylie: And that’s why you have to address all those problems. Simultaneously, right? Because, you know, a lot of people think the solution to homelessness is to give somebody a house. And, and the thing is, we like to say, well, that person has to be key ready, right? I can’t just hand a set of keys to someone and say, good luck, because that’s just going to be a safe place to use.
And, you know, three months from now, the place is going to be they’re going to have OD. So, so you have to have all those Services concurrently to help that person really recover. We like to say, let’s get 30 days sobriety first, right? Let’s, let’s get a clear head and get the substance kind of out of our system first.
Then you can have the clarity to make some better decisions. But, but you’re right. It’s, it’s, you can’t just Um, address one of the issues, it has to be a [00:30:00] comprehensive solution.
Scott DeLuzio: Right. And when you kind of flush that system and get that out of them, then you start to change the narrative internally where you might be talking to yourself and saying, well, I’m an addict or I’m homeless. And now you have this label associated with it. But if you haven’t used whatever the substance is in the last 30 days, well, can you, are you really, maybe you’re starting to question, is that really true?
Do I really need to be using that? Right? So sure. Maybe you have an addiction, but, um, Do you really need it? And can you be something other than that? And then now, now possibility is starting to open up and that you’re starting to see a little more clearly. So I like that. Um, and plus having the, the camaraderie with the other individuals who are in the program, uh, you know, the people who have already advanced through the program and, and everything, um, gives them, you know, [00:31:00] that, that, Or takes away that sense of loneliness, I should say.
Right. And, and gives them that, that hope that, well, Hey, if that guy did it, I can do it. You know, I’m tougher than that guy. I can, I can handle that. Right.
Jay Wylie: Well, and that, that’s really the key is, is, is giving that hope and, and an example and, and a, well, like you were talking about earlier, the role model. I want to be like that person, if that person can do it. And that’s, that’s kind of how in the 12 step community that, you know, that’s how sponsorship works.
You see somebody who’s got what you want. And you ask that person to help you to achieve it. And, you know, we’re not a 12 step program per se, but, you know, we certainly appreciate what, you know, those programs have to offer. And we try and use that model of, you know, of service and certainly Sharing your hope, strength and experience with someone else and helping them to figure it out for themselves.
But you’re right. Once you start to get a little bit of sobriety, it builds that hope and that confidence, self esteem, you [00:32:00] know, those kinds of feelings that we had in the military. We had this sense of accomplishment that stuff can kind of come back and you say, okay, you know, I can do this, but I don’t have to do it alone.
And you learn. To trust others, and so when you’re not feeling good, or you have a fear, or you have a concern, you can say it. And you can say, Hey, I’m worried about this. This is bothering me, right? We’re only as sick as our secrets. And so once that comes out, a lot of times it loses its power and it’s all of a sudden like, Oh, you know, I’m worried about that, but now maybe I’m not as worried about it as I was because I heard it coming out of my mouth and these other people are going through the same thing and they’re kind of making it.
So maybe I can do this.
Scott DeLuzio: And that’s just, I think, a basic communication skill, right, where it doesn’t matter whether it’s a situation like what you’re describing, where maybe it’s someone dealing with addiction or [00:33:00] homelessness or, you know, any, any number of other issues like that, guys, take it back to your relationships, like your, you know, whether you have a girlfriend or, you know, a spouse or, you know, whatever it is that you, you have, right.
Talk to the person, you know, have a conversation about what’s going on. And, uh, instead of trying to battle, Oh, geez, I’m, I’m trying to, uh, I don’t know if I’ll have enough money, you know, to, to pay the bills this month. And I don’t know if I’ll have that. Okay. Well, talk about it. And then as soon as you start talking about it, it’s like, Oh, okay.
Well, you know, we can, we can do this. We can do that and whatever. And we can figure things out. Right.
Jay Wylie: Well, that comes back to the fact that you’re dealing with veterans, and that that’s the challenge. And it, what we run into, and certainly was my problem, is the warrior ethos. So the military is very, very good at assimilating people, bringing them into the military, You go to basic training, break you down to parade rest, put you back together again in a new form.[00:34:00]
Now you’re part of a team. You have a purpose, you have an identity, you have a mission, you have standard operating procedures, uniform of the day, plan of the day. You’ve got, you’re this new thing and you’re part of that team and you’re taught to be professional, reliable, consistent. You’re taught to Be dependable and you’re never gonna let the team down.
You’re never gonna fail at the mission, and you, you, the last thing you ever want to do is let the team down or have somebody else have to carry you, right? You are gonna be the hero, you’re gonna be the one carrying everybody else. Then in an in one day, actually one instant, all that goes away. Whether you did two years or 40 years, you’re out, you’re no longer part of that team.
The mission is complete. Right? You no longer have that support network, and now you have to, on your own, figure out what clothes to wear, what mission to accomplish. And, and, but you still have that warrior ethos, and it makes it really, really hard. to [00:35:00] ask for help. It makes it really, really hard to talk about what’s going on with you because you’re still in that military mindset.
The military does not do a very good job at deprogramming, right? So, um, they say that the three hardest words in the English language are, I need help. And I think that’s the part where we’re trying to make it okay to ask for help.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Exactly. Um, but think about even a team in the military, you know, you’re, you’re, you become part of a team. Um, if for whatever reason, you’re unable to accomplish whatever task has been assigned to you, you got to raise that, that red flag, because maybe that, maybe that’s that link that holds the whole program together.
And if you’re that broken link, then You just let the whole team down and that’s not a place that you want to be in. So you’ve got to raise your hand and say, Hey, I, I need some [00:36:00] help with this. I’m not sure what I’m doing here, or this isn’t working the way it’s supposed to be working, or I have a problem with X, Y, or Z, whatever it is.
And, uh, You know, get, get some help to, to figure it out. Right. Otherwise the mission fails. And not only are you letting yourself down, you’re letting your whole team down and potentially getting someone injured or killed, and that’s not a place you want to be in either.
Jay Wylie: no.
Scott DeLuzio: so, so you, you gotta know. How to raise your hand, even in those circumstances, right?
Where, where you could potentially be letting the team down. Think about it. If you’re letting yourself down, if you’re not accomplishing your mission in life and getting sober, getting, you know, back on track, whatever track you need to get back onto, um, there’s other people in your life. I don’t, I don’t care who you are.
There’s, there’s people in your life who actually give, give a damn about you. Right. And. If you, if you’re just throwing it all away, [00:37:00] then you’re letting those people down too, and, and, and I don’t mean that in a way to like guilt you into doing one thing or another, but, um, you know, those people, those people are relying on you to, to show up for them and be there for them in a way that, uh, they’re, they’re, they’re expecting the way that they know about you.
And, and, uh, if, if you’re not doing that, then, um, you know, maybe you’re letting that team down too.
Jay Wylie: Yeah, and I agree, and you know, and a lot of times, as we were kind of alluding to earlier, if you can include them in the process, that, that becomes huge. And I agree with you, and certainly when I was in command, I always tried to extol the philosophy you just said about, hey, if there’s a problem, raise your hand, never walk by a problem, right?
And, and if the problem is with you, it would be much better for you to say something about it than to keep it quiet and then have an accident. I’ve just seen a lot of people. Be afraid to do it. So that’s the example we try and use. But you’re right. If you can change your [00:38:00] perspective to say, it’s not that these people are depending on me, it’s that we are part of a team and I can depend on them too.
And if I can share with them in a, in a concrete way, what I’m experiencing, what I’m going through and, and, And what I’m afraid of and what, what’s hurting and, and, and what help I need. You’d be shocked how willing they are to help you. Um, you know, I can tell you my own recovery when I had to have those difficult conversations with people from my past, you know, almost everyone was, we’re so glad that you’re getting better.
What can we do to help? I didn’t have really anybody shut the door. The only people that shut the door on me were people who were acquaintances. We’re not very good friends, you know, but the people I really cared about and I was close with, not a one of them has, has walked away that I know of, you know, they’ve all been here.
And so you’re right, you know, use, use the resources [00:39:00] that are available to you.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and one of the things that I try to impress upon my kids is that if they have a friend, or, you know, a quote unquote friend that they have, right, and that person is trying to get them to do something that might ultimately get them in trouble, right, you know, it could be stupid kid stuff, you know, like, you know, just little petty things, right, but, you know, I, I try to make my kids use their brain and think, like, is that really a good friend?
Or is it just someone I have fun with sometimes when I hang out? But, to me, a good friend is going to be someone who actually Cares about you, like who might say, hey, don’t go do that stupid thing because you’re gonna get in trouble, or you might get hurt, or you know, something, someone who actually is looking out for you and actually cares about you, and I know at a young age it’s hard for kids to be able to do, right, because their brains aren’t actually fully developed and they’re still trying to figure out the world and everything too, it’s, I mean, it’s hard for
Jay Wylie: Me too.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, I was just gonna say that, yeah. Um, you know, but, yeah. [00:40:00] But if that’s the type of person that they’re hanging out with, where they’re like, yeah, go do that thing that’s going to get you in trouble, well, That’s probably not the best kind of friend and I want to get that ingrained in them at an early age that way, as they get older and they’re hanging out with people who, you know, are that way and they’re, they actually are trying to get them into some more serious trouble, it’s like, well, then maybe you don’t want to hang out with that person.
There’s probably so even if there’s even if your circle is small, even if you got like five people in your circle, you know, whatever it is, only a handful of people in your circle. And those people all got your back and they’re looking out for you. I’d rather have that than a hundred people in my circle with a bunch of jerks who want me to, you know, do all sorts of bad, bad things.
And just so that they can get a laugh out of it, you know?
Jay Wylie: Right. And, you know, and that’s one of the things in recovery [00:41:00] that, that can be difficult is that a lot of times, even as an adult, we have to make those same kind of decisions. We have to set, you know, healthy boundaries and decide, you know, who do we want to keep in our circle and who’s got to go.
And, you know, what’s really hard is sometimes that can be a partner, you know, sometimes that could be a significant other. And, um, that’s, that’s a difficult thing, but it’s, but it’s true. And, and you have to make, you know, you’re right. We can always use. The people in our lives who we really care about, particularly, you know, spouses, significant others, children, parents, siblings.
We can always use those as a motivator for our recovery, but at the end of the day, we have to do it for ourselves. We
Scott DeLuzio: that’s right.
Jay Wylie: committed to it, and really the only person who can decide whether you’re an addict or not is you. Right? I can, I can show you all the clinical drawings and do all the assessments you want, but until you’ve decided in your own heart of hearts, we’re not going to make a whole lot of progress.
But, but that’s the thing is that sometimes you have to make those [00:42:00] hard decisions and say, this person is not good for me. It’s not that I have wish them ill. It’s not that I, you know, they may not be a bad person, but they may just not be a good person for me. So, so you’re right. You, we, we have to make, Difficult decisions in our recovery.
We have to prioritize our recovery. You know, what we like to say in recovery is you got to put your recovery first. It has to be above everything because if you don’t have that, then all the other stuff falls apart. You can’t be that good husband, wife, father, mother, whatever, you know, it is that you aspire to be because the substance is always going to get in the way.
And so remove that and you’ve got a much better chance of success.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. I had a guy on the show years ago when I first started the show, one of the first guests that I had on the show. And he talked about how his Family life growing up was just not that good. Uh, drugs, alcohol, everything were just commonplace. And, and so that’s how you, how you grow up. You just kind of think, Hey, that’s normal.
Right. Um, [00:43:00] but it wasn’t until he got a little bit older and he realized, Hey, I gotta get away from this because if I stay in this environment, I’m going to continue doing what everybody else is doing because that’s just what everybody else is doing, right? And it’s that cycle. So he ended up moving. And kind of cut ties with all those people, including family, his parents and, you know, everybody, you know, all the friends that he had and everything like that.
And he started a new life, he’s a successful business owner now, he’s got a family, he’s got all these things. But he had to put that first, he had to put himself first in that, that manner. And, and I know that, that sounds selfish. It’s like, oh, well, you know, what, what about the, the family that he left behind and everything?
But at some point you have to realize whether or not. Uh, you know, that’s a good environment and if that, that environment and, and those people in that environment are encouraging you to do those, those things that, you know, are not right then, then in, in his case, especially, uh, you know, [00:44:00] yeah. He made the best decision for him and, and he’s, he’s living a great life now, and so, so that’s great.
Jay Wylie: You put your moan mask on first, right? Then you can worry about helping others. And that’s, that’s the thing is you’ve got to make sure that you’re able to take care of yourself before you can take care of anybody else. And, you know, it, it, it, We don’t get to choose our families. You know, they were kind of issued those and, um, you know, they’re not always healthy.
And that, like you said, man, is that hard because, you know, kids love their parents. I mean, it’s just, that’s part of how we’re wired as human beings, but, you know, not all parents should be parents.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Right. Right. And, and so, yeah, you have to, you have to make, it doesn’t mean that you can never see those people again. Right. I’m not, you know, suggesting that or even advocating for that, you know, that, that may be a, you know, rare extreme circumstance where that, [00:45:00] that might be appropriate, but, um, you know, it’s, it’s a, it’s a decision that you might have to make in the here and now and be like, look, I need you out for now.
And, you know, we’ll, we’ll figure it out later. You know, when, if, and when that that’s appropriate, but, um, yeah. You know, it’s, it’s not easy, but no one said that recovery would be,
Jay Wylie: No, and it’s, and it’s just, you know, it’s, and recovery is an extension of life too, because, you know, um, it all comes down to healthy boundaries. What, what’s, what’s that boundary? You know, I can go to a family event, but maybe I stay there an hour, right? Or, or maybe, maybe we talk on the phone or write letters and I’m not there.
In person, you know, like your friend moving out, you’re out of that environment and you’re able to see things in a different light. You know, a lot of us assume that whatever’s happening in our family is normal. And sometimes when you are able to get away from that, you’re able to say, wow, that’s not [00:46:00] normal.
What we were doing was, was not quite right. You know, there’s, there’s an old story about, uh, this, uh, young lady gets married and she wants to, to pass on this family recipe for, for a holiday dinner, wants to cook this ham and she calls her mother for the recipe and she says, how do I make that wonderful ham that grandma makes?
And so the, the mom says, well, you, you cook it and you do this and you do this and you cut two inches off of it and then you put it in the, in the oven. And she’s like, huh, well, why do you cut the two inches off? And the mom thinks about it for a minute and she says, I don’t know. So they call grandma and they say, grandma, how do you make the, the, uh, the, the ham?
And she says the recipe. And then the mom says, okay, you did everything, but remember, you always cut the two inches off at the end. And the grandma thinks about it for a minute, she goes like, what are you talking about? And she says, remember, you told me that you cut the two inches off the ham at the end.
She was like. Well, that’s because when I was growing up, we had this [00:47:00] tiny little oven and that’s the only way I could get the dish to fit in there is you had to cut off the two inches to put it in the dish. That’s why we do that. people, you know, we, we adopt these traditions that are passed on. And, but we, sometimes we don’t even question them.
We think, Oh, this is just normal. It’s not always normal.
Scott DeLuzio: That’s true. Yeah. I like that. I have a couple other examples with that. I won’t, I won’t go into them right now, but, um, you know, they’re, it’s basically boils down to, well, that’s the way it’s always been done. Right,
Jay Wylie: What a great military
Scott DeLuzio: the best, right?
Jay Wylie: We’ve always done it this way.
Scott DeLuzio: we’ve always done it this way So that’s why we’re gonna do it and we’re gonna keep doing it and it’s tradition and that’s the way it should be done And and everything and that’s not necessarily the best way to look at it For the listeners who are I’m assuming so you’re in the San Diego area And so, for the listeners who want to participate in the program, I’m assuming that you’re kind of just focused on that local area, or [00:48:00] are there other areas that you guys work with?
Jay Wylie: So we are primarily focused in San Diego. We would really, really like. We would really, really like to expand. Um, and we are working to get more resources for other areas. Um, we’re really blessed. We have a great team that we work with at the VA. And, um, if someone were to call us from out of area, we would really try and connect them with their local VA representatives, and at least we could be a sounding board.
You know, but, but, you know, just truth in advertising, and I don’t want to over promise things, we, we don’t have resources in, in other geographic areas, so, so primarily it’s, it’s San Diego, and really, um, for the treatment, we’re licensed in California, so that’s, you know, we have to kind of stick with that as well.
We can do virtual support for treatment, but, uh, you know, again, it’s, it’s, it’s, uh, we’ve got to stay
Scott DeLuzio: Within the state. [00:49:00] Yep. Yeah. No understood. Yeah. I just wanted to clarify that too before we You know kind of wrapped up in anything here because I you know, I don’t want some place someone from someplace else thinking Oh, well, this is great It’s gonna be you know, right down the street or you know, it’s something like that But you know, maybe in down the future and down the line in the future.
It’ll it’ll be You know something that happens as you guys expand But for the listeners who maybe are in the San Diego area You And want to get some help or even, you know, people from other places who may want to make a donation or things like that, anything that you guys are looking for, uh, where can people go to get more information and find out more about your, your programs?
Jay Wylie: So the best, the best way would be to visit our websites. And one of them is confidentialrecovery. com, uh, and all that you need to know about how to get involved with us is there. Um, and if you’re a veteran and you reach out to us, we can help connect you with the VA to kind of try and streamline that process.
Um, you know, [00:50:00] just truth in advertising, we do have some working adults who are not veterans who we help as well. Um, uh, and as you said earlier, we, we really like first responders. They seem to get really along well with our veterans, but you know, spoiler alert, 30 percent of our veterans do, so it works out.
Um, but, uh, and then if you’re looking for the Veterans Navigation Center, it’s veteransnavigationcenter. org. And, and so same thing. And, and we get, uh, generally you can put in a request form to say, You know, this is who I am, this is how you contact me, this is my problem, and then we’ll try and reach out to you and, um, and connect.
Scott DeLuzio: Excellent. Well, I will have those two links in the show notes for the listeners who are interested in getting involved with, uh, the podcast. Either or both of those programs and want to find out more information or importantly, if you know somebody who might need that type of support, uh, from either of those programs, [00:51:00] um, Look into it for them and, and kind of be the sounding board for them and, and go to them and say, Hey, look, I know you’re struggling with, you know, whatever issue, and there’s some people out there who can help and, you know, look into it.
Here’s the information, right? And so that way it’s, it’s not like you’re just sending them a link and say, here, do it yourself, right? You look into it for them a little bit and find out, you know, maybe that’s a good fit.
Jay Wylie: We have partners that we can tell you a lot about, you know, and we can answer questions as best we can. If we can’t, you know, we’ll reach out with you or on your behalf. Now, you know, truth, again, truth in advertising, we don’t have power of attorney, we can’t legally represent anybody. We can’t sign forms for people.
You know, we, we are not your caretaker. You know, we can’t do that type of thing, but we’re happy to investigate things. And, you know, one of our favorite sayings is you don’t know what you don’t know. There’s lots of things we don’t know. So you may, you may stump us. You may say, have you heard [00:52:00] about, uh, horses for vets?
And we’d be like, Hmm, no, I haven’t. Can you tell me more? And then we can try and vet that resource, uh, or we can say, Well, I don’t know horses for vets, but I do know saddles in service. So if what you’re looking for is equine therapy, I know these guys, I’d be happy to research that other one, or I’d be happy to connect you with these guys.
Um, a lot, you know, we actually love that part because it helps us learn and grow too. What we’re finding out more than anything else is that nobody has all the answers and so often in the veteran community It’ll be, I have a problem, and I’m researching it like crazy, and I’m calling people, and I’m just about to give up, and I’m pulling my hair out, because I’m like, I know there’s got to be a program for this.
And I just happen to mention in passing to another veteran, and they’re like, Oh, you’ve got to call Master Chief, Master Sergeant Smith over at, you know, Billy Bob’s. [00:53:00] That’s the program, and that’s how you find out about it. Which is ridiculous, but that seems to be, every veteran that I’ve encountered has had that experience.
So, what we’re trying to do is build a Rolodex of all those experiences so that we can hopefully, um, point people in the right direction. And it’s getting to be a, A fairly decent Rolodex. You know, I, there are, you know, what, what the San Diego Veterans Coalition likes to say is that sometimes veterans are drowning in a sea of goodwill.
There’s so much out there and it’s so hard for them to navigate to figure out what’s the right fit for, for them. Sometimes you just need a sounding board. You need a partner to help you to do that. And that’s, that’s where we like to come in. We just like to set expectations and say, Hey, look, you know, we don’t have all the answers.
We’re just veterans like you, but we’ll help you on your journey. We’ll, we’ll try and figure it out together. Um, and that’s, you know, sometimes that’s a little disappointing for folks who are like, [00:54:00] what? You’re not the VA. You can’t immediately solve my problem. No, we can’t, but, but we were trying to find people who can.
And as we grow and as we get more resources, We’d like to be able to do more ourselves and bring more of the services that we’re connected with in house and have more direct partnerships and be able to fund more things for veterans, but that’s going to take time and, and, and, and more resources. So it’s a, it’s a work in progress,
Scott DeLuzio: Absolutely. I think everything is. Right. And, and, uh, you’re absolutely right about the word of mouth, uh, the way, the way these programs are passed from, you know, one person to another, how they find out, uh, you know, that’s one of the, the things I’m trying to tackle with this show is to share resources and organizations like yours and, and the, uh, You know, the unique nature of each of these, these programs.
So that way people know, Hey, there, there is a program out there that covers whatever, [00:55:00] and. They may not know about it any other way. Um, right. Because a lot of times, I mean, you’re probably familiar with this. A lot of times there’s just not a huge budget for marketing, like a, you know, a Wounded Warrior project or something has a huge budget, right?
And, and other organizations, they don’t have that budget for that type of marketing to get the word out there. But even if they did, even if all of them did, to your point, they’d be drowning in a sea of goodwill because there’s just so many out there. And how do you know what’s good from bad? It’s that word of mouth.
And so, um, with that, uh, I do want to thank you for taking the time to join us today, sharing your program, but especially your experiences, because I think that’s where, you know, the majority of people are going to get the, you know, some good information from is looking at your experience and what you have accomplished and how you’ve gone through from, you know, where you were to where you are now.
And, um, And so sharing that I think is [00:56:00] especially important, and I am very grateful that you’ve come on the show. And for the listeners, again, those links will be in the show notes, so check it out if you’re in the San Diego area, or if you just need help finding the right program for you. But Jay, thank you again so much for taking the time to come on.
Jay Wylie: Um, glad to do it. Glad to do it. I think the biggest thing I have to offer is my mistakes,
Scott DeLuzio: And I
Jay Wylie: big.
Scott DeLuzio: And if we can, if we could take one thing away from it and learn from that, then, then I think we’ll all be a little bit better off. So thanks again for, for sharing that with us.