Episode 475 Mark O’Brien Turning Pain Into Purpose Transcript

This transcript is from episode 475 with guest Mark O’Brien.

Scott DeLuzio: [00:00:00] Ever felt like a single moment could define the rest of your life? What if that moment was your worst mistake? Today, we’re talking about redemption, resilience, and rebuilding. Our guest knows what it’s like to lose everything and still find a way forward. If you’ve ever felt trapped by the weight of your past, stay tuned.

This conversation is about healing, growth, and overcoming. Finding purpose again. And Hey, before we dive into this episode, make sure to head over to driveonpodcast. com slash subscribe, sign up for the mailing list and get my top five favorite episodes sent straight to your inbox. Now let’s get into it.

Mark, uh, I want to welcome you to the show. I’m glad to have you here.

Mark O’Brien: Yeah. Thanks so much, Scott. It’s a, it’s a pleasure to be here and I’m, I’m grateful to you for having me on and for the work you do.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. Um, before we kind of jump into everything, uh, I always find it a little bit useful to kind of share a little bit [00:01:00] about the guests and their background and stuff.

Tell us a little bit about your story. Um, particularly, uh, there’s an incident in 2008, uh, and how that became a turning point in your life.

Mark O’Brien: Yeah, I always kind of start the story right there, Scott, because, uh, that really was a turning point, as you said, for me, um, that was, at that time, I was in my last semester of law school.

I was living with a woman who I was planning to propose to marry that spring, uh, so this was February of 2008, um, and I was about, uh, it was my 25th birthday, and my girlfriend, Lara, who I lived with, had planned a birthday party for us. And at the end of the party, after drinking at the bars all night, I made the really foolish decision to try to drive us home, uh, drunk.

And I flipped my car on the interstate and my girlfriend Lara died in the accident that I caused. Um, and so, uh, you know, in addition to the, the grief and, and shame and, and guilt that went along with losing this person that I loved, um, and being responsible for it, I was also [00:02:00] facing the criminal justice consequences of that decision.

Scott DeLuzio: And you know, in, in those, those moments, like the grief is pretty significant. Right. And, uh, then you’re, you have these charges that are being brought against you. And I know from going through grief and, and just the way your mind works for me anyways, and I don’t know if this was, was your case, I almost didn’t care about anything else.

It was, the grief was all encompassing, as far as I was concerned, and the rest of it, I kind of just didn’t care, uh, any, anymore, like, I was in the military, lost my brother while we were serving in Afghanistan, and all the customs and courtesies and all the things that you do in the military, you know, saluting officers and yes sir, you know, no ma’am, you know, all these things, the way you [00:03:00] talk to people, I didn’t, I didn’t care anymore.

Um, it was just, The grief. That’s all I was really focused on. And, um, you know, I, I gotta imagine, um, you know, if I was in in your shoes, it would be like, I, I’d be more focused on the grief than on anything else. But I don’t know what, what was your experience like with that? No, you’re exactly

Mark O’Brien: right. People, people sometimes will ask me, you know, how did you get through it?

Um, uh, and the truth is like, at first, not very well. Um, and, and I wanna say, Scott, um, just because you, you talked a little bit about your story, one, I, I thank you for your ser, your service. To our country. And also I’m really sorry to hear about your brother. No, thank you. Um, I appreciate your sharing that with me.

Um, but yeah, I mean, at first I think people were surprised because one, this is an alcohol driven accident, right? I wasn’t a person before that who tended to drink too much. I had been a bartender, like alcohol was a part of my life. Um, I partied in, in college, like a lot of guys do. I partied less when I was in law school.

Um, but for the most part, I had like a pretty, you know, I was [00:04:00] calming down by the time this, this happened. Um, But I actually started drinking a lot more afterwards. I moved out of the house that Laura and I shared together and moved into the basement of my sister’s home, which was in downtown Baltimore in a neighborhood that where there was a bar on every corner.

And I didn’t have a car. I totaled my car and wasn’t sure what to If or when I wanted to drive again, um, and so I kind of just hung out in the neighborhood and drank a lot and felt pretty hopeless. Um, I was really lucky in that. Um, and that’s strange to say, right? In a story like this, but, um, Laura’s family was really forgiving from, from the very first moment this happened.

And, and there’s a lot of layers of kind of complexity to what happened. Laura was planning to, to be our designated driver. And I, I don’t say that to like, you know, Skirt responsibility in any way only to just kind of fill in some of the details for what her family’s kind of perspective on this was.

They knew about the plan for the evening and I think they saw that I was a person who did [00:05:00] in general try to take good care of their daughter and ourselves. Um, and so they were, they were very forgiving. Um, and that, that made a big difference for me and, and at least being able to see. Some possibility that there was some goodness left in me.

Scott DeLuzio: Sure. Sure. Um, you know, I gotta imagine. So we, we talked a little bit about, you know, kind of your, your. Emotional state at this point, like what you’re, you were going through, um, but you brought up a good point with the, her family, um, you know, what, what is she going through, or sorry, what are they going through, um, from, uh, the loss of their daughter that like, no, I don’t care who you are.

I don’t, I don’t think any parents should ever have to bury their child. Um, and, um, You know, it’s, um, it’s a difficult situation, um, but for them to be as forgiving as they were, um, that, that had to, [00:06:00] uh, you know, kind of be, um, you know, a positive sign in, in your eyes anyways, right? With as, as far as, you know, how, how do I move forward?

You know, if they can forgive you, then, then Shoot, maybe you should be able to forgive yourself too, right? Is that, was that one of the things that helped?

Mark O’Brien: I think eventually. Um, at first it was, uh, I was in, I was in survival mode and I was, I was grateful. I was really grateful for the forgiveness and also to have fellow travelers in this, in this grief journey.

You know, this, these were the people who also loved Lara. And so, uh, to have been isolated from them at that time, I think would have been, would have been, uh, That much more that much more difficult. Yeah. Um, you know, and I, I want to say, uh, their act of forgiveness is incredible. Uh, and I, and, you know, nobody would ever blame them as you said, you know, as you mentioned, like nobody would ever [00:07:00] blame them to have felt, you know, Completely differently about me to have, to have hated me, to have had so much anger, uh, to have never forgiven me.

And so I just want to say like, I, I point out their forgiveness because it was a blessing for me. And I think it can be really healing for people to forgive. And also it’s okay if you’re a person who’s been in a similar situation and that hasn’t been a part of your experience to forgive. Um, I think, you know, forgiveness though, looking at it as something that can be really good for the person who does the forgiving.

Um, yeah. I see that in Lara’s family’s experience, that that was also part of what they needed to do.

Scott DeLuzio: And, you know, forgiveness, I’m going kind of a little bit on a detour here, but forgiveness is one of those, those things where it’s kind of confusing because I think a lot of times people think forgiveness is you, you have to be okay with the way things turned out or the way things are [00:08:00] or whatever, but it’s really not.

Being okay with, like, a parent’s never gonna be okay that their, their child was, you know, is, is dead, right? That’s not being okay, but it’s, it’s accepting it for what it is, and also realizing there’s not anything you can do about it, and You still can be sad. You still can be upset. You still can, uh, you know, grieve the loss of that person, but at the same time, understanding, like, I have to let this go, I can’t change the situation.

And I think that is more along the lines of what we’re talking about as far as forgiveness, right?

Mark O’Brien: Yeah, I think it’s a decision to, to not live with anger in

Scott DeLuzio: your

Mark O’Brien: heart. And, and I want to say, it’s also something that. Sometimes you have to do over and over, right? You can forgive, like, we can forgive somebody in our heart and really say, I want to forgive this person.

I, I’m letting this go. And [00:09:00] have moments where we don’t feel that way in the future. Right. And we have to re we have to decide if we want to recommit to that. I think sometimes people think of forgiveness as this really final act. Like when did you forgive this person? When did you, you know, uh, and sometimes we have to do it over and over.

We have to decide to continue to let stuff go. Um, but I also think we kind of can get confused about accountability, justice, forgiveness, and reconciliation is the big one. Right. Like sometimes it’s okay. You know, I think it’s different. Depending on the type of thing you’re forgiving somebody for. But, uh, sometimes it’s okay to forgive somebody and also know that it’s not a good idea to reconcile with.

Like, they’re not a good person to have in your life.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, that’s true too. Um, because, uh, you know, you can, you can forgive someone. Hey, This is the way that person is, you know, that, you know, I’m not going to change that, that they are the way they are. Um, but I, I also know that maybe it’s, you know, an abusive relationship or something like that doesn’t mean that you need to keep that person around, you know, for your [00:10:00] physical safety, for your mental well being, all those kinds of things.

You may need to. Distance yourself from that person, uh, for, for those reasons. But you can still be okay with it in terms of, I, I accept that that’s who they are. I’m not going to change. You could even

Mark O’Brien: wish for things to go well for them.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, for sure.

Mark O’Brien: Acknowledge in your heart that. You know, you also make mistakes and that maybe theirs was worse or better than some that you’ve made.

But, you know, just acknowledge that people are fallible and, you know, like them, you have screwed up too. Yeah. That can be part of this spirit of forgiveness that, that we can just bring into the world.

Scott DeLuzio: Right. Right. Um, now, All of these different emotions, the grief, the guilt, shame, all the things that you were kind of dealing with at this time, um, how did they kind of trigger your, your work that you’re doing now?

Advocacy and criminal justice and addiction, uh, you know, work. How did that kind of trigger all of that in you?

Mark O’Brien: [00:11:00] Yeah. So, so it kind of came in phases, I would say, you know, um, Initially after Lara died, like I said, I was really in survival mode. I was just trying to, to cope. And, you know, on some days that looked like, uh, you know, frankly wishing that I, I was the one who was, who was not alive, you know, and, um, but, uh, you know, at a certain point I started to be able to, uh, envision what a future might look like, And, and start thinking about what life could look like on the other side of this.

Part of that for me was finding out what the criminal justice consequences of my, you know, of my actions were going to be. Um, because initially, you know, in addition to the grief and everything, I really didn’t know.

Scott DeLuzio: I

Mark O’Brien: knew that the charges that I was facing could carry anywhere from zero to 15 years in prison, which is, you know, It’s a huge diff to a guy who’s 25 years old, especially this is a, this is either a big, a big, big chunk of life, um, or, or potentially, you know, consequences that were not really severe or in my mind, particularly in, in alignment [00:12:00] with what I’d done, um, And so I was eventually charged and I found out that, um, the prosecution was going to agree to a, uh, a plea agreement that was going to cap my sentence at about 18 months.

And in Maryland, where I live for a first offense of this nature, that seems to be kind of like a normal sentence is around a year and a half. It’s actually very low compared to a lot of the country. Um, and I don’t say that is like a good thing or a bad thing, but just to give people some details. Um, And I wound up getting sentenced to only a few months, which meant I was going to serve about two of two of those months in jail.

And a lot of that was through the intervention of Lara’s family with the court and with the with the prosecution. Um, and I think having, uh, Seeing that there was at least a time after which I would be in control of trying to figure out what the future looked like was really, that was a time where I, I honestly, uh, sat in, sat in jail and really thought a lot about what would it mean to make [00:13:00] this more meaningful or, and to have my life, uh, be worthwhile.

Recognizing that, you know, I survived this thing that I very much could not have, and that, um, I wanted to also honor Lara’s memory by doing something good with my life. And I got out of jail, and, and like a lot of people, I found out that it’s really, really hard to find work with a criminal record. Um, some guys had said that to me while I was locked up, and I figured, you know, I have a law degree.

I worked for a congressman when I was in law school. I worked at, uh, you know, the U. S. tax court. I’d had, like, You know, bosses who could open doors for me and things. And I thought, you know, this won’t be a big issue for me. There’s a lot of other stuff to deal with, but work won’t be a big deal. And it turned out that it was, nobody wanted to even give me an interview.

Um, but I did eventually find work helping other guys who were coming home from prison to, to get jobs. And that was my first entry into kind of the criminal justice work that I started doing. Um, but I had no, no clue what I was doing. Like I said, I could barely find myself a job. I needed to figure out like, well, what could I [00:14:00] do to support these guys?

Scott DeLuzio: And, you know, it’s kind of, kind of crazy how the, these, these things work, right? And you’re a smart guy, obviously you went to law school and you are capable of doing these things. You know, you, you worked, uh, you know, for congressmen and you’ve, you’ve had some pretty good success as far as that goes, um, career wise.

Um, But, not everybody has the same, you know, head on their shoulders, right, and, you know, a lot of times there are people who are in prison for theft and other, you know, selling drugs or, you know, other crimes like that where, hey, that might be their only option after getting out of prison because they don’t, they don’t know really how to do anything else and no one’s hiring them to do something else.

And so, Well, there seems like just gonna perpetuate that cycle. I know I’m kind of getting a little bit off track here, [00:15:00] uh, you know, based on what we’re talking about. But, um, you know, if, if it’s hard for someone like you who has a law degree and, you know, all, all these things, uh, in your background that, you know, It’s hard for you to find work, how hard is it for someone who doesn’t have any of that, I guess is where I’m trying to get with that, and, um, that, I gotta imagine is part of the reason why you’re doing what you’re doing as far as the criminal justice, uh, you know, reforms and, and things like that too, right?

Mark O’Brien: Yeah, that’s exactly right. So what, you know, what I saw was, uh, I think a lot of people wind up after maybe having an experience in the criminal justice system, folks who wind up working in the field I do after, after that, a lot of times, you know, it’s driven by their own exposure to injustice of, you know, and they’re, you know, they were treated unfairly in some way or found the experience harmful or whatever.

And the truth is I was treated more than fairly. By the criminal justice system. But what I saw was exactly what you’re describing. A [00:16:00] lot of folks who had other issues going on with it was addiction, trauma, um, no histories of employment, low educated, all these barriers in their way and a system that seemed to be making it worse.

And so yeah, I wound up working in the public policy field for, for quite a while trying to just trying to make it better for people when they were coming home. And what that meant for me was, how do we create programs that help people? And how do we get some of the legal barriers out of their way?

Because I have a really you. I think a big problem with our system that a lot of people aren’t aware of is that once you have that record, there’s actually 40, 000 laws and regulations that limit your opportunities in employment, education, where you can live. Um, so it’s like a whole nother legal system that you wind up having to figure out how to navigate.

Scott DeLuzio: Right.

Mark O’Brien: Um, And to me that, you know, that doesn’t make a lot of sense once [00:17:00] people have, have, have done their time or, or paid their debt, um, that we keep people trapped in that way.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, that, that’s another, I think we could probably go down a whole nother, there’s a whole nother

Mark O’Brien: episode,

Scott DeLuzio: a whole nother episode with, with all those types of things that, that, that could hinder people from, uh, you know, making that re entry back into society after, after their, uh, time in prison.

But, um, But you seem to overcome some of this stuff. I mean, you’re now working to help, uh, other, other folks and talk to us a little bit about, uh, trauma informed, the, uh, I

Mark O’Brien: appreciate your, you’re saying that, um, you know, things, things in my life are going really well. I feel really blessed. Um, To be able to give back in a lot of ways.

And I actually, what, what happened was that in a number of roles, I started seeing people doing this criminal justice work, this work around addiction or trauma, and a lot [00:18:00] of these systems and a not insignificant number of them, like me, came into their work because of personal experiences that were really painful, whether they were incarcerated or a loved one was.

Um, and my background was in, in public policy, but I wanted to understand what, what does, what does social science say about this? Why is it that some people seem to, to grow in ways that are, that benefit all of us after these painful experiences? And I came, uh, and just doing kind of, you know, the Google thing, I learned about this concept called post traumatic growth.

And in reading about it, I, I, Really, you know, could I could identify with a lot of what I was reading in terms of not just like the painful aspects of what people go through after a traumatic experience, but also some of these hopeful components of the ways that people change, you know, in positive ways that I just don’t, I didn’t hear a lot about before that.

And I think our [00:19:00] culture doesn’t do a really good job of talking about. Um, and so I, I started trauma informed really without, An exact idea of how I would do this, but with the goal of just trying to rebalance the way that organizations and people think and respond to trauma so that we’re both, you know, trying to help people heal and making sure that we’re not making things worse and also recognizing that a lot of people come out stronger, more resilient, um, and with a deep sense of meaning after they’ve been through some shit.

Scott DeLuzio: And I think that’s the, that’s important too, is having the, that sense of meaning, sense of purpose, what am I going to do with my life now that I’m, you know, on this other side of whatever the trauma happened to be, um, you know, it could have been, you know, losing someone who’s close to you, it could have been, uh, you know, any number of different things, right?

But we all, you know, I think [00:20:00] we all are the sum of all of the experiences that we’ve had in our lives from the time we were born all the way through to this present moment, good and bad, um, and I say the sum because, you know, bad, you might think as like a negative and it subtracts, but no, really, it adds to who you are.

It’s adding to that personality, that character, the type of person that you are. Um, it may not be necessarily a good thing, but Unless you’re using that for a growth purpose, like you were talking about post traumatic growth, um, where you, you discover more about yourself, who you are, and how you can, um, you know, make better changes for, um, not just yourself, but the world around you, right?

Mark O’Brien: And that was really, so that was the lens that I, I came at this with is why and how do people, you know, become like more altruistic, I think is the way I feel

Scott DeLuzio: like.

Mark O’Brien: They [00:21:00] decide that they’re going to give back in some way, and actually what I found out is that that was the lens that I came at it with, but it turns out that people grow and change in positive ways in a whole bunch of different areas, and only one of which is that sometimes they find ways that They, they want to give back and you touched on a few of them there, uh, in, in the way you were describing this, you know, people having more appreciation of life, um, getting a sense that, you know, they want to slow down and appreciate beauty more or the good things in their life, feeling more connected to others.

And that happens in a couple of ways. One is, you know, You know, they see who, who was there and how important it was to have support from people in their circle. So they may feel more, people feel more connected because of the social support they receive. And then on the other side, they have this deeper kind of insight into what it means to suffer and people develop greater empathy.

And so a lot of folks wind up reporting that they’re able to, to Uh, connect more deeply with [00:22:00] others. Um, a lot of folks find new possibilities in their life. So they, they decide they want to try new things. Sometimes this altruistic, like I’m going to go do something good for the world kind of falls in this new possibilities category, but it could be, you know, I always wanted to travel and I never did, but now I realize like time is short, I’m going to go do this, you know, so there’s people kind of reevaluate what they want to do with the future.

Um, And then a lot of folks experience positive spiritual changes. So sometimes that might look like, uh, reconnecting with the faith or developing a new faith. So it can be religious in that sense. Um, other folks, it maybe is more kind of existential, you know, thinking about what, what is their place in the universe and things like that.

And then, um, For others, it may be more kind of like the Eastern sense of, uh, of spirituality, where they’re connecting more with meditation and things like that. Um, but there’s like a whole bunch of ways that people do well after, after trauma. And I think for veterans, right. We, I think a lot of the, what we know about.

Trauma actually comes from the [00:23:00] area of especially combat veterans. Um, and concepts around PTSD grew up in that world. Um, and I think the same thing there, you know, there’s some good work happening that actually these concepts of post traumatic growth also, a lot of it originates in, in the military and veteran, you know, Um, research around these communities.

Um, and I, and I think the same thing applies here that we, our culture has really gotten a very good understanding of the, the harmful ways that trauma affects people, veterans, people have experienced a lot of other kinds of trauma. We kind of have like this cultural sense of what that looks like, even if it’s a little, you know, maybe a little skewed.

Uh, But very little, like, you know, very little sense that, like, there’s actually all these wonderful ways that people change because it’s, we don’t want to talk about it that way because, you know, I think, I think there’s a difficulty talking about it that way for a lot of reasons. And a lot of it just comes down to, like, we don’t [00:24:00] want to seem callous and not acknowledging the painful side.

And so then we, like, but then we don’t give the person credit for the positive side because we, you know, we feel uncomfortable talking about it.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, I get that too. Um, but I mean, a lot of things, a lot of great things that we have in our society come from the military, look at, you know, go all the way back to, you know, jeeps.

They, they came from military, that was a military, uh, you know, tool, uh, GPS that we have in our, our vehicles. Why not? Mental health care as well, right? You know, that, that’s another thing that just because of how many veterans or service members who have experienced trauma, especially over the last 20 ish years, you know, when we were at war, we, I mean, we still have people, you know, overseas serving.

I don’t want to take away from that and make it sound like I’m forgetting about those, those folks or, you know, or anything like that. But, you know, we, we [00:25:00] still, we have, you know, Had so many people in that, that long time period who experienced traumatic events, you know, war is hell, is not just a catchy, you know, slogan or anything, it actually, it’s hell, you know, there’s, there’s terrible things that you, you see and have to do and all that kind of stuff, while So, yeah.

Serving in, in, uh, in combat. And so we got to take care of these people. And so we start to learn, okay, what’s working, what’s not working. And let’s do more of the things that are working and less of the things that are not working. And, and that’s where a lot of this comes in, but. Veterans and soldiers and, you know, service members that we’re, we’re not the only ones.

We’re not unique in the fact that we’ve experienced trauma. Anybody can experience trauma. As a matter of fact, most people do experience some sort of trauma in their lives. And it’s just a matter of how do you handle it? [00:26:00] How do you deal with it? And, you know, some people maybe have that toolkit already built into them because they, you know, from their upbringing, maybe, maybe they learn coping strategies along the way and they’re, they seem to be a little bit more resilient, but other people might need some help along the way as well.

And so we have developed some tools to help teach people. How to be more resilient and experience that post traumatic growth where they do something positive, uh, after that traumatic event. And so, um, tell us a little, you know, about trauma informed and, you know, are there specific types of trauma that you guys focus on and, and the types of work that you guys do?

Mark O’Brien: Yeah, so I would tell you a little tiny bit more of the story because it’ll help me answer the question.

Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

Mark O’Brien: Um, so, so I started Trauma Informed and the first thing, you know, I’ll say I thought this post traumatic growth stuff like everybody needs this. And so I’ll say my, my idea was I’m gonna, I’m gonna do this for everybody, everywhere in the [00:27:00] world.

They all need to know about this. I’m the guy who now knows about it. Well, you know, of course that’s not true. Lots of people already knew about it. Like you’re saying, there’s lots of work already happening. I was the new guy. And so I came to this thinking like, I’m going to do this. I’m going to figure out how to like.

Teach people about this and in every field and kind of my attitude was very agnostic about like the type of trauma that people might be experiencing the type of systems I was working in. But the truth was, like, all of my work up to that point had been in the addiction and criminal justice fields. Um, and so it made sense to at least start.

In the addiction space. Um, so we, we got a contract with the, I’m in Maryland. We got a contract with the state to develop this trauma informed care training for addiction providers that was, you know, delivered over the course of six sessions, six, like two hour sessions. Um, and it went really, you know, it went really well.

And there’s, there’s already a lot of content around trauma informed care that’s already out there. So we were able to kind of pull from some of that and, uh, you know, some of what I’d learned about post traumatic growth, but [00:28:00] the truth was I really didn’t know what I was doing. And the training went well and people appreciated it, but I didn’t really feel like people walked away with like an understanding, like deep in their soul of what, of what this stuff really meant and what they could, they could do to change it.

And, and I didn’t really know how to, how to change minds as much as I felt like I needed to, to, to make this work. So I went back to school and, um, you mentioned like, Good stuff coming out of the military. So I went to the, the, uh, Penn, I went back to school at the Penn positive psychology center, um, which actually developed the Penn resilience program, which is what all us serve all us military service members now receive as the resilience training.

And so I, I, I get into this program and really have this idea that I’m thinking about, well, what happens to people after trauma? How do we help people after trauma? And, and through. Learning from the folks who developed the Penn Resilience Program, what I, in my own research, what I found is that the ingredients [00:29:00] for before and after trauma, you know, to be resilient before trauma and be prepared for trauma, uh, the ingredients for being resilient are pretty damn close to the same ingredients that we want in place after trauma for people to grow, okay?

And maybe it sounds silly to say it out loud, but like, you know, That’s not always true when things that make common sense that they also, you know, make factual sense or like research supports it or whatever.

Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

Mark O’Brien: Um, and, and, uh, so what I found was like there’s, there are certain factors that seem to help people prepare for trauma.

Um, as you’re mentioning, like, how do people, how do some people come with, like, a baseline, but we can also teach people to develop these resilience skills? Um, and then what do people need in place after trauma, and how can organizations be prepared to, sort of, just nudge people in the direction of doing better?

Um, yeah. And so that’s what I’ve been incorporating into, into trauma informed since then. And I, I know this is kind of a long-winded answer, but, uh, to get kind of the, to [00:30:00] the point, what we do now is we, we actually train human services organizations, mostly addiction providers, um, in trauma informed care, but incorporating all of this that we’ve learned around like, how do you not just.

Engage with people in a way that doesn’t make things worse, but actually start drawing their attention to the good things about themselves and their environment and the potential in the future and their strengths. Uh, starting to draw their attention to more of that stuff just in like Everyday conversations, but also in, in, uh, treating folks.

Um, and that, and that’s what we’re doing now. We did about, um, a dozen organizations last year that we worked with. So it’s, it’s mostly just me and consultants I bring on for the, when we deliver the training, uh, we’re hoping to do about twice that this year. And, and to keep reaching out where we can and, and, you know, we find in the systems that we work in, especially, you know, the addiction treatment system is especially like this, folks are coming with, uh, coming into it [00:31:00] with a lot of different histories, right?

Whether it’s military service, trauma in the community, crime victimization, um, and so a lot of what we, what we talk about are letting people reflect on those experiences. Um, but, you know, I think people develop communities with others who’ve been through similar types of trauma.

So it can be good to have people connect over similar experiences in that way. But the stuff that we’re doing works for folks Pretty much across the board, no matter what the kind of hardship in the past is. Um, but one more important aspect of this is we’re not treating trauma. If people need treatment for PTSD, that’s a different kind of care than we’re trying to help folks deliver.

Scott DeLuzio: So help me and maybe some of the listeners as well. So if, if we’re, we’re dealing with something like a [00:32:00] PTSD or some sort of trauma or we that we’ve had in, in our lives, um, How is it that, uh, you know, like trying to think how I’m going to phrase this, you know, like where, where do you guys come in, in that, that time period, this, this is, I’m just trying to wrap my head around like where, where you guys fit into the equation.

Mark O’Brien: So I, so I should start this answer by saying we don’t. So, through Trauma Informed, we don’t work directly with trauma survivors. We’re, we’re working with, uh, organizations that are working directly with folks who may or may not have survived trauma. Got it. And trying to give them some tools, uh, so that they’re kind of prepared for the reality that a lot of the folks that they’re working with have had these experiences.

Scott DeLuzio: Got it. Okay. So that makes sense. Yeah, it does now. Yeah. And I, I think, I think you said that I, I might’ve just missed it, uh, as you were saying it. So I [00:33:00] apologize for that. No,

Mark O’Brien: I think I don’t articulate it very clearly. I think your question was a good one, Scott.

Scott DeLuzio: No, I, and I don’t think my question was articulate.

Somehow we, we came to a conclusion at the end of this, but I don’t think I said my question all that well either. Um, but

Mark O’Brien: so let me, let me talk a little bit about how. How this happens in people’s minds and then, uh, like why people change. Okay. That, that would be, I think that might help.

Scott DeLuzio: That would be helpful.

Yeah.

Mark O’Brien: Um, and then, uh, and then I think that leads into kind of the explanation of what we try to teach professionals to do in their interactions with, with people. Um, okay. So. You know, so we think of trauma and there’s, I don’t want to call it small T trauma because this is like, this stuff is painful and highly distressing, uh, but there’s like the smaller T trauma, I would say we’re, we’re, we’re not talking about PTSD.

Scott DeLuzio: Okay.

Mark O’Brien: Um, but this, these kinds of changes can also occur in folks who are experiencing PTSD or have experienced [00:34:00] PTSD. Um, it’s, it’s, it’s harder to get there. Um, with, especially with untreated PTSD. Um, and so the first thing that I say when I, cause I also do some coaching with folks is, is that what I do is not therapy and it cannot be treatment for PTSD.

And if that’s what folks need, you gotta do that first. You gotta do that part first. Um, But when people experience a traumatic experience, the part that, that I’m really interested in is how this, how this changes their ways of thinking. Um, so we all come in to all of our experiences with what’s called an assumptive world.

So we have these like basic ideas. We may never even have like articulated them to ourselves, but we have this basic idea of what the world’s like. You know, bad things happen, but I’m generally safe. If you do the right thing. Good things happen, life is generally fair. Whatever these kind of preconceived notions we walk through the world with are, and the experience we have really, you know, shatters those assumptions.

We, we find [00:35:00] out, you know, even when I do the right thing, bad things can happen, or, you know, I thought that, you know, I’m a good person and good people don’t harm others.

Scott DeLuzio: Mhm.

Mark O’Brien: And I, you know, how do I rectify those two beliefs about myself? And for a long time, the way I did it was to conclude that I’m not a good person, right?

I had to rebuild a new assumptive world. And my assumption had to change that I was a good person because otherwise I had to believe that good people could kill others. Right. Or something, I had to come up with a new way of looking at the world, which, you know, over time, I will say over time, I’ve come to understand gray areas a little better.

But so in the course of kind of rebuilding this understanding of the world, people, you know, may actually come to see the world a little bit more negatively, which I think sometimes surprises people when we talk about post traumatic growth. So they may see the world as a little bit less safe, a little bit less fair, but the growth part of this is they also Uh, appraise themselves to be better prepared to deal with it.

So [00:36:00] they feel stronger and better prepared, even though maybe they see the world is a little bit less safe and a little bit less fair. They don’t see people as there to support them in the same ways or whatever these changes might be. Um, and they also have this existential re evaluation where they start deciding that, You know, I’m, I’m more grateful for things in my life, or I want to try new things.

There’s all those different ways that people grow that we talked about. Um, but part of this is all this, this rumination, right? When we’re going through something that’s really painful, we’ve all had the experience, whether it’s a big T trauma or maybe a low T trauma or whatever of, uh, of, Having thoughts that just seem to like overwhelm us, right?

Or thoughts that we wish would go away that intrude on our thinking. We call this intrusive rumination. It’s when we have this kind of invasive thinking that we can’t control. Um, and, and over time, people usually are able to kind of shift into a more deliberate rumination where we actually get to decide, Hey, I’m going to reflect a little bit on what this [00:37:00] experience meant for me.

Um, But a lot of the distress is in that, that rumination and the reliving of the painful experience. Um, so traditionally what trauma informed care has taught folks to do, so there’s people who are treating trauma, right? If you’re a psychologist or a social worker, you might be treating trauma. And there’s, there’s different ways that you’ll have been trained to intervene to actually, uh, Help people heal from the trauma, right?

But if you’re a doctor or an addiction treatment provider or a homeless service provider, or you’re doing some kind of service for veterans, there’s a very good chance that you’re providing services to a lot of folks who have experienced trauma, whether you’re trying to treat their trauma or not. So what we try to do through trauma informed care is prepare people to anticipate that folks may have experienced trauma.

That there can be some like behavioral outcomes that come with that, right? People, people may be a little less trusting. [00:38:00] Um, they may be a little bit quicker to anger. Um, and there’s some things that may come up in service, um, that they can be prepared for. But there’s also some behaviors that they can do to make people feel more safe and comfortable.

Um, to show up as trustworthy and reliable because a feeling that you can’t count on people sometimes comes with, with trauma. Um, we want to give people, we want to empower people and give them choice in the way that they receive services. And we don’t say, hey, uh, here’s where you can go for housing services and here’s your only option.

We want to help people explore options, um, because a feeling that we no longer have control. Is often a part of trauma. All right. So there’s all these principles that we teach people about how to not make trauma worse and how to help them heal in this kind of relationship where we’re providing some kind of service.

And that’s awesome. So that’s where we started. We wanted to do that, help people not make things worse and maybe like just help people nudge along towards healing, um, within these relationships. Um, but there’s a whole side [00:39:00] that’s missing from this, which is that you can start drawing people’s attention to the ways that they grew.

And get stronger. Right? Uh, the great things about themselves, all the strength that they had to show up with. Um, a lot of times the message we send to people is, you know, in an empathetic way. I see how you’ve been hurt, you know, you’ve been damaged and I care about you. Right? But the message is you’ve been damaged.

And I see that you’ve been hurt and and we forget to say, wow. It’s incredible that you got through that. That tells me that you’re this, this, and this. You know, these good things about you, that you’re, you’re resilient, um, that you’re, you’re spiritual, whatever it is that we see in that person. Um, we want to teach people to draw attention to those good things.

Um, and then also help them to, to just nudge conversations into a hopeful, Disposition towards the future. Cause those are the two things, um, that I see in, in, in the research kind of, if you could break it down into two ingredients for people, it’s, it’s connecting, [00:40:00] so they need social support and connections with others.

Um, and it’s, it’s an optimistic outlook for the future. Not unrealistic, right? It’s not, I think I’m going to win the lottery in a couple of weeks and everything’s going to be better, but it’s. Hey, if I stick in treatment and do the things I said, I’m going to do, um, I can rebuild a life that, that I enjoy.

I can get some things that I want out of life and things can get, and that to me is the key ingredient in, in almost any kind of progress or growth we can do is that we see a better future and we, and we see that our actions can contribute to it.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and I, I think that that’s a key piece, because if you don’t see that the future could possibly be any better than what you’re experiencing right now, that light at the tunnel doesn’t even exist, um, you know, it’s hard to be like, okay, well, I’m going to put in the work to move forward because, you know, what’s the point?

You know, if It’s [00:41:00] never going to get better. It’s, you know, if anything, it’s only going to get worse. It’s like, well, then why, why bother? You know, and that kind of mindset is, you know, what a lot of times people end up with. And, uh, You know, to your point, it’s that’s not true. You know, it will get better.

There will be better days. Um, yeah, sometimes you got to put some work in, uh, to get there, but it’ll get better. And, you know, if, if you don’t believe that, sometimes it may even become a self fulfilling prophecy where You’re, you just don’t believe it. And it’s like, okay, well, then you make a bad decision.

Well, that just reinforces the belief that it’s not going to get better because that bad decision led to a bad outcome. And it’s like, well, see, it’s not going to get better. Right. And so, you know, with those positive reinforcements, the people who are, you know, saying, Hey, look, man, you’ve, you’ve been through hell and back and you’re, you’re still standing.

You’re, [00:42:00] You know, most people would have crumbled under this and look at you, you’re still here. It’s like, okay, well, you know, maybe, maybe I do, maybe I do have a little more fight left in me, right? And that, that kind of mentality I think is what you’re getting at, right?

Mark O’Brien: Yeah, that’s exactly right. So it’s, it’s really just to, to spell out kind of the ingredients as I see them in this is like drawing attention to the, the positive, uh, aspects of the, of the person, right?

So you want to make sure that they’re spending more time aware of what’s good about themselves. Um, You know, uh, drawing their attention to the good people in their lives. So even if, you know, for a lot of people that in, in, who are getting services from the organizations I work with, the good person in their life might be that person delivering the services.

A lot, a lot of folks don’t have a big support network.

Scott DeLuzio: Sure.

Mark O’Brien: But for other folks, it’s, it’s really drawing their attention to the fact that they do have people who care about them and, and want things to go well for them. Uh, and then it’s, uh, drawing positive attention to the future. You know, what’s, what’s possible in the future.

What are the ways. [00:43:00] That things, um, could be better and identifying a pathway there. And so the, the first thing I do with, when I start with coaching clients is actually just like really small stuff to help them feel a little bit better because it actually primes the brain for this sense of agency that like I can do something.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah,

Mark O’Brien: and things could get better. Right? So you think when you read like kind of self help stuff around goal setting, it’s like setting these small wins so you can get some momentum. Uh, you know, some helps self help stuff is not like super well researched, but like some things are in that getting those small wins along the way is is really a great way And I think that’s a great thing to do.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, I think the small wins, when you think about it, like, yeah, everybody looks at the, the people who seem like an overnight success and like, oh my gosh, I, you know, I wish I could be like that. But in reality, there’s a lot of small wins along the way, uh, that, that, that person experienced. And, and also some setbacks.

They had some setbacks along the way too in, in whatever their path to success, [00:44:00] whatever success means for that person. Um, it could be financial, it could be, you know, relationships, it could be whatever it is that you’re seeing as setbacks. Um, they’re, they’re, they’re probably some setbacks. They weren’t necessarily an overnight success.

You’re just becoming aware of their success overnight. And that’s why it seems that way. Um, they had a lot of small little, little victories along the way. And that, that helps build confidence and helps them get to this, this point where they are, uh, eventually they’re, they’re doing better and they’re looking back down the mountain and they’re like, Oh my gosh, I came all this way.

And it was, all it took was one step at a time, right, and it’s, you know, the, you know, the saying of how do you eat an elephant, and it’s, you know, one bite at a time, um, right, and, and so, like, that’s a big task in front of you, but You gotta take it one step at a time, and, um, sometimes those little victories, that, that’s one step, and that, [00:45:00] that’s exactly what you need, uh, and, well, that may even be more than one step, because those little victories probably had a lot of sub steps, you know, within them, and so, um, you know, that, that may be, you know, a whole mile on that journey, uh, that, So, um, yeah, celebrate those little things too.

Um, I think it’s important to remind ourselves of that. I, I have to do that to myself as well. I mean, you know, good things happen and sometimes I just kind of write them off as bad. Well, it’s a thing that happened, right? But, you know, celebrate those things, you know, why not? Um, you know, they’re, they’re good, they happen, um, you know, and if you’re going to spend more time dwelling on the negative things that have happened, then that’s going to reinforce in your head that, you know, everything’s bad, everything’s negative, there’s, you know, all that kind of stuff.

And so, you

Mark O’Brien: know, Scott. And it’s not only that, because you don’t even have to intentionally dwell on the negative. We have this, this really great adaptation. Well, you know, [00:46:00] when we were living in the wild, we had this really great adaptation called negativity bias, which is that our brains are really good at remembering things that go wrong, things that are threatening and scary and painful, because that’s how our brain prepared us to predict the future.

Future risks, right? The brain’s first job was to keep us alive. Um, and so if we don’t do anything. Everything else being equal, our brain is going to be drawn to that negative information and things that make us down and worried. And so we actually, the only way to balance this is to intentionally draw our attention.

Uh, and over time you can make this a habit. So you’re, you know, you can make your brain want to do this, but we have to intentionally draw our attention to good things in our lives or, or, um, we will have a tendency to, to dwell on the negative. Cause we’re, we’re, you know, We’re biologically programmed to do it.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And our, our brain, as great as it may be at keeping us alive, it could be a pain in the ass too. That’s

Mark O’Brien: exactly right. There’s a [00:47:00] cool little exercise that some people really love. There’s a ton of research behind it. Um, I’ve done it at different, Periods of my life. I’ll say I’m not doing it right now, but I’ll, uh, I found it really beneficial at different times.

It’s called the three blessings exercise or three good things. Some people feel like the three blessings feels more religious than they are comfortable with. But, uh, either way, it’s like at the end of the day, you just jot down three things you’re grateful for from the day. And some days it might be really great.

You know, big things like, uh, I saw my child smile or, you know, my child walked for the first time or something. And other days it might be like. You know, the sun was shining. You had a lousy day, but you could figure out like the sun came out for a little while. Um, I’m having a peaceful end to the day, you know, whatever it is.

Um, and there’s a, an extra little ingredient to this is try to figure out what about you, the people in your world. Or, uh, the things in your life made that possible, right? So even with the, the sunshine today, well, I wouldn’t have known that if I didn’t at least go outside, uh, [00:48:00] you know, whatever it is. So something about you, cause that’s again, drawing your attention to the ways that your actions result in good things.

Uh, and it’s a great exercise that if folks try for a few weeks, um, the research shows a lot of people feel just a lot better about themselves after this.

Scott DeLuzio: So, I mean, uh, uh, just as a takeaway for the listeners, I know we’re, we’re kind of getting close on time here, so I’m gonna, uh, you know, try to speed this up a little bit, but just, you know, a good takeaway is, is try that, you know, at the end of the day, what, what are three things that you could be grateful for, blessed, you know, whatever word you want to put on it, um, Find three things, um, and, and they could be as small as, like you said, the sun shining, and then, you know, how did you know that?

Well, you stepped outside. Okay. Well, you, you did that good. So, um, you know, and don’t beat yourself up. It’s like, well, that’s the only thing I did good, you know, and okay, it’s a thing.

Mark O’Brien: Don’t let yourself go down that, that, that, uh, trail. Cause, so the other, I’ll say one other thing about this, cause I, Because I think it touches on what you were just getting at is, is, [00:49:00] uh, a lot of times, like there’s only one appropriate emotional response to a situation.

Like you lose somebody, the appropriate response is sadness and grief. Like, and it’s, it’s normal and we should feel bad, right? There’s a lot of other situations where there’s multiple appropriate emotional responses. And sometimes it might be like anger or humor, right? Like that’s actually a pretty common situation where you could be really pissed off.

Yeah. Or you could laugh because somebody’s a jackass.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

Mark O’Brien: Right. Um, and the truth is in those situations where we get to choose, we have a lot of power over our experience because you can have a day where you laughed at people and kind of had a good time, or you can have a day where you were ticked off the whole day.

Scott DeLuzio: Right.

Mark O’Brien: Um, And you don’t always get that choice, but sometimes you do.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. So yeah, even something as small as just making that choice to laugh instead of getting angry or something like, Hey, you know, be, be grateful that at least you weren’t angry for that short piece of the day, you know, which probably would have made you angry for the rest of the day as well.

Right. So, [00:50:00] um, so for the listeners, uh, who. might be interested in some of the services that you have to offer, uh, you know, if there’s anyone out there who provides services to uh, other, other people who may have had some sort of trauma in their lives. Um, can they, is there a place that they can go to find out more about the programs that you offer and what you, you do?

Mark O’Brien: Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, just for trauma informed, the organization, just the website is a great place to find us. It’s trauma policy. So T R A U M A P O L I C Y. org. Um, and then to find all the, to, to connect with me and see some of the other things I’m working on is at marklobrian. com.

Scott DeLuzio: Excellent. Excellent.

And I’ll put links to those in the show notes, uh, for the listeners, uh, to check it out and, um, you know, find out a little bit more information, you know, and hopefully can help some folks along the way. But, uh, Mark, it, it’s been great, uh, chatting with you, uh, you know, kind of opened my eyes [00:51:00] to, you know, Your experience and kind of what you had to go through, um, and, but also, you know, the work that you’re doing and, and the other folks who might be out there suffering from trauma, who are getting the benefit of the services that you’re providing to those other providers.

Um, it’s kind of like a force multiplier where you go out and you, you spread this information out to those other people and they’re able to take it and hopefully impact their, their, their life. area of influence a little bit, uh, a little bit better. So, um, thank you again for taking the time to come on the show.

Uh, I really do appreciate it and appreciate you taking the time to share your story.

Mark O’Brien: Thank you so much for having me, Scott. It’s been a real pleasure and that’s one of my three blessings for the day. So I could be grateful for a good time with you. Thanks, Scott.

Scott DeLuzio: Absolutely. Likewise. Thank you.