Episode 490 Rob Sarver and Alex Gendzier The Key to a Successful Military Transition Transcript
This transcript is from episode 490 with guest Rob Sarver and Alex Gendzier.
Scott DeLuzio: [00:00:00] Before we dive into this episode, make sure you’re subscribed at Drive On Podcast dot com slash subscribe to the newsletter mailing list. If when you subscribe, you get my five favorite episodes sent straight to your inbox. No fluff, just the best insights to help you drive on. Let’s get into this episode.
So leaving the military means more than turning in your gear, getting a DD two 14. It requires redefining who you are. When the mission, the comradery, and the structure disappear overnight, that’s where a lot of us get stuck. How do you find purpose again? How do you build the life that actually fulfills you instead of just punching a clock?
Today we’re talking with Rob Sarver and Alex Gendzier, the authors of Warrior to civilian, the Field Manual for the Hero’s Journey. They spent years studying what makes for a successful military transition, and they’ve put together a practical guide to help veterans [00:01:00] find their next mission. If you’re feeling lost, stuck, or just wanna do this transition the right way, stick around this episode is for you.
Let’s get into it.
Rob Alex welcome to the show. Really glad to have you here. I’m looking forward to this conversation. And, and kind of get into the book that you guys have written the, the Warrior to Civilian, the Field Manual for the Hero’s Journey. Looking forward to getting into that. But first off, I wanna welcome you to the show.
Rob Sarver: Thank you for having
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. Rob, first off, you know, as a, as a Navy seal obviously that’s, that’s the elite of the elite as far as the, the military goes. So your training was, you know, especially grueling, you know, compared to, you know, maybe some other folks. And, and maybe some of your experiences as well.
Things that you, you had to do during your time in in the military. Transitioning out, going from that warrior to civilian. Could you share maybe some of the obstacles that you faced [00:02:00] during your shift out of the military and how you kind of maneuvered around those
Rob Sarver: I think that’s a great question and thank you. And thank you for having us again on the
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah,
Rob Sarver: So I. My experience is really no different than any other veteran, right? You’re still gonna be the loss of a community, loss of community, loss of identity. You’re still gonna go through these things. There, there is a spectrum I would think of, you know, the stressors that are people are gonna deal with.
If it’s, you know, you compound with a comorbidity P-T-S-D-T-B-I, physical injury, moral injury, these are the things that are really gonna kind of compound those things. So, not everybody about 70% is the statistic. I think that people that feel some sort of stress or life stress going through this massive change, and what Alex and I did was over five years try to write this book to give frameworks for folks to work through, you know, from ancient great Greek mythology to Joseph Campbell’s, the Hero’s Journey.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Yeah. And when you’re right [00:03:00] there’s so many people getting out and I’ve, I’ve done this show for almost six years now, and talked to so many people having so many different issues that people are, are facing. I. Alex I, I know you, you work, you do a lot of work with veteran advocacy work and, and things along those lines.
What are some common challenges that you found that veterans face in this transition that they may not anticipate as they’re getting out?
Alex Gendzier: It’s a very smart question. The beginning of your question was how many different issues and how different are the life experiences of veterans and frankly, spouses getting out. And that’s utterly true. But if I could shift it just a little bit and describe our work. We started interviewing veterans.
More than five years ago. And we felt we had to read everything that was out there. And, and that helped us do the interviewing and in our view, collecting data. And you hear these incredible stories and of course they’re [00:04:00] all different, just like you say. But what came to us, and this is my answer to your question, was in anticipating and, and remounting enormous life challenges.
Whether you’re a veteran, whether you’re a spouse, whether you’re a civilian, a commonality that we all share. We all have a common humanity in how we face these challenges, and so things that seem impossible. If you can take a breath, get some coaching, put your own fear and anxiety aside, which is a constant struggle in life that Aelius spoke about with great eloquence.
You, you can see. Common patterns of these challenges, and if you look at the transition as a really tough one, then you will prepare in advance. If you have a spouse, they go through a parallel transition. Everything in the book that relates to veteran transition, almost identically [00:05:00] appears in the life of the spouse and the family. a way to assess yourself and where you are. a hundred cups of coffee as a, a friend of of ours told us you have to do in the beginning. And you have to figure out how to find work that is not just a job, but is a meaningful place for you. Where there’s some alignment of culture, where you can add your skills to what they do, where they will welcome you.
Where there’s mentors. Mentors have been essential in Rob and my professional and personal lives, and that’s true with everyone. So there’s some common ways to anticipate and attack these challenges. But the last thing I would say is one thing that Rob and I came to in our own more than five years of conversations on a constant basis to create the best book we, we felt we could do.
’cause that was the challenge. When veterans tell you their life [00:06:00] stories and you have. Junior enlisted folks and flag officers pouring their hearts out to you in a very meaningful way that is a kind of catharsis over an hour or two, you feel an obligation to do your very best for them. And, and, and that was not a burden, that was a challenge.
It’s and a duty for us in these ways. We felt it was incumbent upon us to share how we felt about our own life challenges, where we struggled and where we did better. kind of analysis is also very helpful to the veteran.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And when I, I think when you have the, let’s just say an 18-year-old kid who graduates high school, joins the military stays in for, at that point his entire adult life. You know, whenever it is that he gets out, whether it’s five years, whether it’s 20 years or 25 years or, or more that’s an entire adult life.
That’s all his adult life really has known [00:07:00] is service and purpose and, and meaning behind that, that type of thing. And when you get out and. The job that you’ve, you take whatever career, whatever industry, whatever it is that you end up doing. There’s a big gap that needs to be filled as far as that maybe sense of purpose and meaning, because it’s been, like for the last couple decades, you’ve, all you’ve done is stuff that had purpose and meaning, and then now you’re going and pushing papers at some company and, and maybe it just doesn’t seem like it.
Matters. Right? And so I guess what, where I’m trying to get with that is finding something, and it’s gonna be different to everybody, but finding something that has meaning and purpose to you, I think is, is kind of what you’re getting at, is, is an important aspect of this, right?
Alex Gendzier: We can talk forever about this. Rob, you wanna give your thoughts and I’ll add.
Rob Sarver: Yeah. I think, you know, in the military our, our purpose, you know, we all [00:08:00] serve the same why, right. For the constitution, you know, the how and the what and what, you know, what function we did in the military like that, that’s, you know, the individual past that we chose, that was the call to adventure for each of us.
But initially that the original call to adventure for us was in service of the Constitution, refining that purpose, refining that why, and when we, we spoke with, many veterans. And so I’ll, I’ll reference general Petraeus when we spoke with him, that veterans, we somewhat kind of fall in the trap is when we get out, we try to recreate that same world, right?
That we were in, you know, I’m, I’m looking for this, this set of this cohort or this set of people and I wanna see like this set of values. And, you know, I only wanna work with people that, you know, display this sort of characteristic. That, that’s a little bit of, a little bit of a false way of going about it, right?
We’re never gonna be able to recreate that world. Now, there’s great aspects that we can take from that. Characteristics we can take and apply it to, you know, okay. Working with trustworthy people or working with, you know, very dedicated people, people that work hard but don’t [00:09:00] get stuck trying to recreate that like.
It’s okay to reflect on that. Don’t dwell, but just use that experience and use the things that you learned that were good to refine that new, that new purpose and whatever. You know, as Alex and I, the framework, another framework we give is, you know, kind of four things is what region in the US do you wanna live? What industry do you want to work in? What function do you wanna serve, and what part of a community do you wanna be a part of?
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Th those I think are all important. And I, I think sometimes people miss that first one that, that which is kind of low hanging fruit, but it’s that geographic area that you wanna live in. You know, do you wanna be, you know, close to family where maybe you grew up and, and, and that type of thing where you wanna be, go back there, or have you seen parts of the, the country or parts of the world even that.
Appeal to you and maybe you want to relocate and, and go back to those places, even if, you know, your duty stations have changed over the years and, and it’s like, you know, I really liked it when I lived in whatever [00:10:00] this place was. And it’s like, well, there’s nothing, nothing stopping you from picking up and, and going back there when, when you get out.
Right.
Rob Sarver: No, you, you’re right. And the military will move you back to whatever that distance is to your home of record. So it’s, you almost get a free move if you get within that boundary.
Scott DeLuzio: Right. So I guess figure that out. Be, you know, beforehand and, and make sure you, you, you get that right, so, so you, you get, get that benefit. That’s, it’s actually a benefit that you don’t really hear, talk about too much, is that, that you do get that I. That, that move essentially for free and you know, that that could be quite expensive depending on, you know, where it is that you’re, you’re moving to and what you’re moving and all that kinda stuff.
So that, that’s, that’s a great benefit. Now for, for a lot of veterans, there’s psychological health is an issue, mental health, things like that. Right. Does your guide address this aspect of, of things and what kind of strategies are, are suggested for maintaining their mental health after transitioning from the, the military?
Rob Sarver: We, we do. So, kind of going back and sticking with the [00:11:00] framework of Joseph Campbell’s the Hero’s Journey. You know, we, we left on this call to adventure.
We, so we left this known world. Of our comforts, our surroundings, our family, and we go to this unknown universe, you know, joining the military service. And we go through these different processes of, you know, there’s mentors, there’s new skills learned, there’s a death, rebirth, probably of self. There’s some sort of atonement.
What Alex and I, what, what we found with interviewing over 200 veterans is when you come out of that unknown universe, service of the military, and you come back to that known world. And I’m gonna stick with that, prove the proverbial phrase, the fog of war. It’s almost as a mental fog to some sort of, ailment or comorbidity, the the PTSD, the TBI, the physical injury, the moral injury, the substance abuse, some something is preventing you from finishing that journey and coming home to refinding purpose. That’s why it’s so important. You have to go back and essentially step back into that arena, be vulnerable and identify these things and help fix [00:12:00] yourself.
So Alex, with, with that framework, if you’d like to, to mention anything about the mental health side.
Alex Gendzier: Yeah, it’s essential. I, I would say the two biggest groups of chapters that we really spent time figuring out how to, how to do, were those on the visible and invisible wounds of war and how to we find purpose. And I want to come back to purpose in just a second, but in that, but you know, I, I think one of the lessons we have seen.
I’d say two of them, they’re the most prominent in, in dealing with mental health is like in all the practical aspects, the veteran and the spouse do much better if they anticipate that there will be stress in the road ahead, and that there will be mental, emotional, psychological challenges, streams to cross. And it’s a trite phrase, but it’s not just, you’re not alone. What we came to see [00:13:00] was that these are essential to the human condition, and these kinds of stresses that are made worse are exacerbated by more than one thing. Rob referred to comorbidity, which is just two factors, having a dynamic and feeding on each other, so it becomes tough for a doctor to say it’s this or that.
Frankly, medical therapeutic diagnoses have come a long way, but there’s still a lot of kind of mediocre advice out there. The first point is you have to anticipate these things will happen. General McChrystal in a way that is typically deaf and, and somewhat comical. Said, you know, when his, his he got out and, and that was his own story, you know, the cat. That’s a small thing, right? You’ll have stresses, but the other way to look at it is these are enormous life opportunities to look at parts of your life. You’ve never, you’ve never had a chance to, to before. The second thing [00:14:00] came from a little bit of wisdom from a, an amazing guy named Tom Satterley, who has created an all secure foundation.
Clinic, basically treating trauma as well as difficult marital issues for couples. He and his wife do that. And they’ve both written powerful books about these things. His, he has, he has two, one-liners that have stayed with us. The first is in this department of mental health. Reaching out for help is not a sign of weakness.
It’s a sign of wanting to become stronger. And although the stigma of mental health issues has gotten better in our country, it has a long way to go. And that’s especially true for warriors who have the disposition before they go in and when they’re in their training to rely on themselves or their teammates and not ask for help. And emotion and tears are often still viewed as a sign of weakness. I would tell you in our interviews, in [00:15:00] our own lives. The people that we find the most admirable, the most courageous when they need to, they kneel down and they cry, and they know how to articulate their own emotions. So the idea that reaching out for help is not weakness, it’s a way to become stronger, is a mantra to us.
By the way, his second phrase is. Most veterans are not, are given a disservice. They’re not told how tough this transition is including about mental health, but it’s the whole panorama and, and Tom, one of Tom’s points in working with veterans is in the military you train for every mission. Exactly. What have you done to train for this mission?
Because this is as challenging, if not more challenging than any single combat. Deployment episode that stays with you. And that’s a fabulous way of thinking about it. And by the way, [00:16:00] training doesn’t cease. This is true. This has been true for the most moving conversations we’ve had with Vietnam veterans who are still digesting and transitioning. So it’s a long answer, but it’s a really complicated topic. Preparing for advance, being willing to get help, thinking that this is a mission to train for, are guideposts.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and your point there that at, at the very end here, I, I think is super important. I, I want to kind of just go back to that for a second because it not, not to downplay any combat mission that anybody has found themselves in, even in the, the most grueling of circumstances. Anyone who’s been in a combat situation, they’ve trained for it, they, they’ve gone through a lot of training and, and some of it becomes almost like muscle memory.
The, the same way a, a baseball player is able to swing a bat at a a hundred mile an hour fastball and be able to make contact. There’s, there’s a lot of muscle memory that goes [00:17:00] into it and. And that, I don’t wanna say it’s easy because of that, but it makes it easier. Right? But it’s only because we’ve trained for those things that we had that muscle memory, that we’re able to be able to go through those motions and do the things and, and operate on a successful basis there.
But when you, to your point, how much training have you done for. Post-military service, and if the answer is none, well, how are you going to expect that it’s gonna be easy sailing? Right. I had a, a, a friend who you know, years ago, you know, he, he got out of the military and he reached out to me and he, he was like.
It seems like everybody I went to high school with is just absolutely crushing it. You go on LinkedIn and they’re, they’re all, you know, vice presidents or you know, presidents of whatever, and they’re, they’re all, they all have these senior positions, and I’m out here looking for, it seems like what I’m qualified for is just some entry level position.
[00:18:00] And to your point, it’s like, well, what? Did you do to prep for this to get you to that point? Y you, you spent, you know, a, a good, poor part of your life in the military and, and no one’s taken that away from you, but what did you do for that next step? And, and no one’s taken that away from you, but what did you do for that next step and.
Alex Gendzier: Rob, I can see you wanting to go black belt.
Rob Sarver: So we have a, we have a, another good friend former Seal, Kurt Cronin, that, that is a big contributor to the book. And he’s, he has a phrase that, you know, in the, in the military we had, we were subject matter experts in our, in our field, right? Our MOS and we all essentially wore black belts. But when you get out, you’re taking that black belt on, you’re putting on the white
belt, you’re going back to day one, week one.
And, and you have to accept this and learn this new terrain, and eventually you will look, you will get [00:19:00] back to that black belt and you’ll probably get back to it much faster because you have all these incredible skills coming outta the military, you know, the soft and hard skills, but applying them to a new industry in a new, in new job function, like you’ll, you’ll earn it again.
You just kind of have, you have to find that right. That right lane. But I will say one thing I will caution people getting out a little bit later in their career, the people that have done 20, 25, even 30 years. You know, your room for error, obviously that window has closed a little bit more, right? Some industries you might not wanna go be an an, an analyst in investment banking, but but, but it’s more, they need to think about the erosion curve on the backside of their earnings.
So if you’re gonna get out and you’re gonna try real estate for two years, like, nah, I don’t like this, your late forties, early fifties, but then you jump and you’re like, man, I really want to go into sales, you know, medical sales. They don’t like that, then they jump again. Every time you’re jumping your future, like your future earnings, [00:20:00] climbing up that organization to be that Smee, this is obviously if you don’t wanna be the entrepreneur, that erosion curve on the backside is happening and people don’t, people don’t think about that.
Alex Gendzier: Let me, is it okay if I keep on going? I, I wanna link your prior topic about transition challenge, mental health challenge with this job, transition one. So here, here’s our book. We’re, we’re proud of our book, warrior to Civilian The Field Manual for the Hero’s Journey. By the way, it’s on Amazon and we have a website heroes journey.net.
The subtitle of the book, the Field Manual for the Hero’s Journey is not some fun romantic throwaway phrase. It’s the heart of our book. It’s the heart of our own. Life stories. And here’s the connecting dot between the prior topic of mental health and healing and this job transition. The hero’s journey grew out of a way of [00:21:00] looking at epic tales.
So most obviously Joseph Campbell popularized this theory. You could say it’s a theory of looking at great stories, and he focused among others on, on the Odyssey of Homer. And the in the Odyssey of Homer, which by the way, general McChrystal spoke about at length incredibly eloquently as every Warrior story. The hero, the protagonist, fights for 10 years to come home to his wife and son, and when he gets home, he doesn’t know what the hell to do with himself. His house is a mess. There’s bad stuff he has to clean up. He cannot clean up himself. The challenge and the ultimate redemption of that. Man’s story is how did he figure out to combine the life lessons, the amazing experience from his military days, his service, his service to others, and things higher than himself, his love of, of, of [00:22:00] fellow warriors.
That world with the mundane world, which we kind of refer to as the American Shopping Mall, where people think the most important thing in their week is to buy a new pair of sneakers. And you leave. You leave that world where it was life and death and for fighting for things for country and brother and sister and those that cannot defend themselves to is really bind to next pair of sneakers, the most fricking important thing in your life. Now, that is a common reaction, but it’s not a necessary one because if you can combine these parts of your life. And by the way, living with your family, finding meaningful work, making a contribution. Rob brought into the book the, the Theory of the Circles of Concern from an ancient stoic philosopher named heroes. These are real. If you can take and combine these worlds, you’ll have a [00:23:00] turbocharger for mental health. For job, you may begin as a white belt again. Okay. But you have inside of yourself skills, life experience, judgment, maturity, leadership, responsibility, 10 other things, if you articulate them, if you harness them, will turbocharge you and your career will, will jump ahead of the people that are, that are selling staplers down the whole and not, I’m not, I’m not trying to demean sales.
Okay. But you know what I mean. You’re gonna find, in other words. Not just a new sense of purpose, but you’re gonna find meaning in your own life journey. And that is the heart of how we use this idea of the hero’s journey in your own life journey. You will find meaning a bunch of pain, maybe loss, maybe a whole bunch of tears that still hit you as they hit us, as they hit Rob and me every week once in a while.
Okay? But in [00:24:00] that journey. People have a chance to see themselves and their lives as tremendous, tremendously noble life pursuits. You are the noble warrior. You are leading all of us around. I’ll, I’ll detour for just one second more. There’s many warrior societies that embody this. Our own Native American roots in the warrior societies of that civilization of, of that world.
The warrior that comes home is the one that is revered and understood, but is the one that gives life lessons to the rest of us. Me, civilian. I’m a proud military dad, but I’m a civilian. Those things are what every warrior can do, so these things can shoot, can shoot ahead in terms of. Mental health, they can shoot ahead in terms of brass T tax career stuff.
This idea of the hero’s journey is a powerful one that every veteran and spouse has available to themselves, and that’s the heart of our book.[00:25:00]
Scott DeLuzio: And I think that’s an important piece of that, that whole, whether it’s the transition, what, whatever it is that you someone’s going through, is that finding purpose, finding meaning because when you have that, that’s the thing you can kind of latch onto and. Keeps you going. Keeps and it, and it wards off all sorts of other issues.
I is what I’ve been finding, just through conversations that I’ve had, I’m sure the conversations you’ve had were very similar to ones that I’ve had with other other veterans where. Those who were struggling to find purpose, they were depressed. They hated their job, they had relationship issues. They were having all sorts of other issues going on in their lives.
But when they found their purpose, found their meaning in life you know, post-military service, that’s when things started to kind of come together and everything gelled and everything just seemed to fall into place. [00:26:00] But to your point, it wasn’t always without some tears and some heartache and some issues along the way, but I think that’s part of being human.
We’re going to experience those things from time to time, and that leads us to that next better thing, right?
Alex Gendzier: There was a powerful interview of two correspondence. We will keep their names out so it’s not politically controversial, but it was a very personal confession. One was grieving over the loss of a family member, and the other sent him a. He read the note on the air and he started crying and he said, in your letter to me, you told me that you had profound losses, that you were grateful they happened to you.
How can you say that? the other guy said I’m grateful for these painful moments I’ve had because they’ve had to make me see the [00:27:00] humanity in others more clearly. That made me see my own and accept my own sense of self. It motivated me to wanna reach out and where I can to lift up those around me. So the reality of everyone’s life is there’s gonna be some rain and some clouds and some suffering. It’s what you do with it that matters.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and I, I, I found that when, when you talk about. The good and bad in life, whether it’s happiness versus sadness, that, you know, whatever those apo opposing things, grief and joy and, you know, whatever those, those things are, you don’t, you can’t experience the sadness if you don’t have happiness. Right at, at the same level.
Sure you can be sad, but if you don’t know what it is to be happy or to be loved or to be, you know, cared for [00:28:00] or, or whatever, you can’t experience the, the loss of that because it’s, it’s never been there. And so how to, so another way to look at it perhaps is. Be grateful that you had those opportunities to be happy, to be loved, to be whatever.
And then yeah, sure, you’re gonna gonna have that grief when that loved one passes away, for example. But be grateful that you had the opportunity to love that person too. Right? And that’s just maybe a different mindset shift that, that you might have to work on, but it’s, it’s just another way to look at it, I think.
Alex Gendzier: Of course we agree with you and working with veterans and their stories for five years and having incredible cathartic conversations reinforces your point. It also reinforces the point that Rob and I have seen in our lives and observed with great respect and humility in others is the stoic expression, memento [00:29:00] Maori you have to remember that death comes to all of us. Our time here is limited. We don’t think about this in our daily lives ’cause it’s the nature of the human condition. We have I got a list of things to do this weekend and that’s gonna drive me, but I’m gonna attempt to pause and remember these stories and these stories of loss because our time here is limited.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Alex Gendzier: Life is fragile. The sooner we incorporate and, and then say to ourselves, okay, my time here is limited, how am I gonna make the most of it? And that doesn’t mean you have to be a hero every day. If you don’t go shopping for your family, you’re a moron. You’re not doing well. But, but, but, but there comes a time on a frequent basis when you can stop and ask these larger questions of, am I doing the right thing with my life?
And the answer could be different for everyone.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Alex Gendzier: But the [00:30:00] minute, you know, life is fragile and you’ve seen that, and your own life will come to an end. Why not make the best of it, including having a a ton of fun and joy and fulfillment and love, especially love. Why not?
Scott DeLuzio: You know, when, when I was a a kid, I was, I was not the best student in school. And
Rob Sarver: You and me both.
Scott DeLuzio: I I, I’m, I’m guessing there might be some other listeners who are like, yeah, same. But but I, there’d be times where I was just, I would just say to myself like, what, what’s the point of doing the homework?
I’m not gonna do well anyways? And so why bother? Or you know, why study for the test? I’m not gonna do well anyways, so why bother? And my mom said, look, you have to go to school. You know, you’re a kid, you gotta go to school every day. Why not make the best of it? Why not put in your best effort? So that way, even when you get the, the C or the D or whatever the the grade is that you get, you know, hey, that’s, that’s my best effort [00:31:00] versus not doing any of the work and failing.
And just assuming that, well, that’s just how I’m gonna be. I’m gonna fail. Knowing that, hey, I put in my best effort and this is what I got, and not just chalking it up, that I’m just gonna be a failure forever. And, and that’s as good as it gets. Why not put in some effort, your best effort? You, you gotta be there anyways.
There,
Alex Gendzier: I, I, yeah,
Scott DeLuzio: doing right.
Alex Gendzier: I, I’ve got two boys. They are a center of my life. When they were in school, I would say the same thing. And I would remind them I live in New York City. I’d say 40 blocks north of us are, are gonna be a lot of kids that would kill to have your opportunity.
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Alex Gendzier: Now when we think about this conversation, and I don’t, I don’t mean to start waving the flag, but we love our country.
We live in the greatest country on the planet. There are billions of people who would kill to have our seats. Our chance here [00:32:00] to pay the rent to live every day. Why not make the most of it?
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Right. Yeah. I, it, that’s, I I think where I was going with that is like, let’s, let’s take this out outside of school context. Let’s, let’s take this to just, you know, your life in general. Like what, whatever it is that you have to do, you, you have to do it. You know, if you’re, if you’re a father, well, you gotta be a parent to those, those kids, and. Why not be the best father that you can be? Why, why show up half-assed? If you can come in and, and give them a great childhood and give them a good role model and you know, all, all of the things that a, a good parent should be doing, why not do the best that you can? Yeah, sure. You may not be the best parent in the world.
I, I know I’m not I’m, I, I, I challenge anyone to raise their hand and say, yeah, I am. You know, but why not be the best that you can be? And so that. Those, those kids have the best opportunity to to succeed and have a, a good, happy, healthy life. Right.
Alex Gendzier: Application of this to [00:33:00] veterans is, is is not just make your best life. It’s in your service to country, to constitution, to brother and sister. There’s a way to think about your life, which adds meaning. Purpose nobility. That’s an opportunity before everyone.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. So how did this collaboration between the two of you guys begin? You know, what was kind of the, the spark that, that got you to wanna start this project with writing this book? You know, and, and you said. Interviews that, that took place over the course of five years.
Obviously this was a, a passion project that, that took place here. How did you guys get together and, and what, what led you to wanting to start this book?
Rob Sarver: So, it’s about five years ago, Alex and I were connected through mutual friends and Alex’s son wanted to transfer from WL to the Naval Academy. And, you know, at the time trying to draw on 17, 18 years of. [00:34:00] Past knowledge of the admissions process. I, I helped his son get over to the Naval Academy and he’s, he’s graduated now and, and serving the country.
But, and then Alex and I ended up working at the same private equity firm very shortly afterwards, Alex, as the general counsel, so as a thank you, Alex set up weekly calls with me to teach me the debt credit markets. ’cause I don’t have a, I don’t have a traditional investment banking background. And those conversations quickly got off topic from debt credit markets to how I came back, transitioned, how I assimilated back into, you know, the normal, the normal swing of things or life.
And being quite honest with Alex, I, I told him, I was like, look, you’re hitting me at the right point where I had kind of just finished three programs. I had to go through two different clinics to try to figure this out. And then I found a Vietnam error psychologist. Who’s been working with vets for 40 years.
That really tied everything together for me. So Alex, you’re kind of hitting me at the right point of balance and, and vulnerability here. But then Alex [00:35:00] also took a step back and he disclosed his own life, tragedies that happened within his, his own family, and then further conversations. Then it was one day, probably about a month after some of these revelations that Alex came back says, okay, Rob. We we’re a microcosm of this relationship between veteran and civilian, but what, what we have here are universal themes between two different lives. It doesn’t matter if you’ve served in the military or seen combat, you know, the clues that are, and success and failure, the trauma, the grief, you know, the world of emotions like that’s experienced in both universes.
He’s like, let’s, would you help me write something for my son because I think he’s gonna stay in long term. I’d like to leave something behind. So a, a longer story longer is what, what started as just kind of a, a memorandum or something to leave behind for him. A letter grew in chapter and verse to, okay, hey, we think we got something here.
[00:36:00] Let’s share with a friend. They’d read it like, okay, you’re onto something. And then we got a few more chapters in and then we found ourselves. When we found ourselves sitting in front of General McChrystal talking through these frameworks of ancient Greek mythology, Joseph Campbell’s, the Hero’s Journey, and he said, guys, you, you have something, but you have to make it practical.
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Rob Sarver: That we took that to heart and that set us on the course of the, the continuing four years to find the best researchers, the best doctors we could to synthesize this information for the veteran to, to at least give this field manual, which could maybe reduce stress or save a life.
Scott DeLuzio: And that is of, of the goals that you can possibly have. That that last thing you just said there is, is. Right up there. I mean, because as we all know, in this veteran community, it’s just far too many people are just calling it quits, ringing the bell, if you will, and put it in your terms. And, and that’s not, that’s not what we [00:37:00] want.
We wanna, we wanna bring that number down and,
Alex Gendzier: We, we have to step in. Our government can’t do this job. At least historically, we hope Now it changes. Our government hasn’t done this job. The folks in charge are well-meaning, but it’s too big a task. Veteran statistics have been massaged to make it seem more acceptable. We have to step in now.
I’m wondering if we could rerecord this, Rob, we’ve done this so many times. Can we change our story that we met in a bar fight? And just like, can we, can we change this, the narrative and just say, I actually jumped in and I, I actually saved you. Or by, you know, or maybe we do like the last scene in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, you know, when they’re in the little hacienda and they’re fighting their way out.
Like we jump, like, okay, I’ll, I’ll be, I’ll be Butch Cassidy, you can be Sundance kid. Can we do, can we just lie and, and have a different answer to the question of how we did this?
Rob Sarver: Alex. Alex saved my life.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, I like it. And, and you know, I’m, I’m gonna [00:38:00] cut out all that other crap that,
Alex Gendzier: Yeah. Can you make this more exciting?
Scott DeLuzio: Aal Alex, you, you, you jumped in and yeah. Rob was being pinned down by, by three biker dudes. And and, and you came in and saved the day. It was, it was amazing. Single handedly by the way.
Alex Gendzier: Yeah. It, it was yeah, that’s exactly what happened.
Rob Sarver: His Stephen Segal moment. Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: yeah. Right. No, but honestly, yeah, it, from, from your point, point of view, Alex, I, I think it, it makes a lot of sense. You know, and, and as, as you guys are talking, I was thinking to myself, what a great thing to be able to leave for your son who’s, you know, potentially gonna have a long career in the military.
You know, as, as far as a father goes. Certainly makes sense. You know, why you would want to devote so much time and effort and energy into putting a a manual together like this, A field manual to be able to help somebody and not just anybody, you know, your own, your own son. And to me that, that makes [00:39:00] me feel like if, if that’s your target audience right now is your son.
You’re not half-assing this, this is not a you know, a half-hearted attempt just, just to get your name out there and, you know, pat yourself on the back. As far as that type of thing, that probably is a, a secondary, tertiary, not even on the radar kind of issue. Your, your goal here is to create, and, and you, you’ve said this earlier, create the best product that you can create to help the, those, those transitioning warriors.
And when. When it’s as important as your own flesh and blood you gotta believe that that’s exactly what you guys put together here, right?
Alex Gendzier: Yeah, it, yeah. I appreciate your words. Let me clarify though that this was my initial inspiration that lasted a nanosecond compared to what came to us as we started interviewing veterans and looking at what’s out there and hearing. The consistent [00:40:00] feedback we got that I, I wish I had had this when I was getting out and there’s nothing like it.
And there are some good books out there and there’s a lot of books that just want to tell war stories. And there’s a lot of job placement companies that wanna make a buck off of veterans about placing jobs that that’s not us. This sense, and, and I don’t know how to describe it. It, it became, if anyone’s ever had a calling.
You’ll know what we’re talking about. This became a calling inside of us. And, and I think certainly for Rob perhaps a second calling because if you serve, and this is true for any veteran, I just know, Rob, if you serve on the SEAL teams, that is a calling of life that never leaves you. This became a calling that we shared together and have pursued together, and the mission and sense of need and opportunity to make a contribution became clear to us quickly.
Because while there are some good books out there and there’s a lot of stuff [00:41:00] that’s just fluff, we thought we could make a contribution and fill a void in this space, and that became a driving passion.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and there, there are certainly. A, a void here in, in this space that, that needed filling. And I, I believe you know, based on the, the, this conversation here that you guys have accomplished that mission, filling that void and creating this manual that like you said, so many veterans would, would wish that they, they would’ve had as, as opposed not, not to say anything, you know, against the programs that are currently in place for transitioning veterans.
You know, they, they’re. They’re out there doing, doing the best they can, but like you said, the government can’t do everything. And if we’re sitting here relying on the government to do everything, we’re gonna be sorely disappointed. I, I
Alex Gendzier: Yeah, we, we can’t, and by the way, the, the existing TAP programs were well intended in creation and there are some good folks involved in that. We have met dozens of them, [00:42:00] but honestly. It’s not cutting it. The tap programs are simply not doing it. They, they’re a source of resentment by veterans for reasons that we understand the government on this one can do better, and we’re hoping in this moment that there’s an opportunity to change that.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, a hundred percent. And what I’ve, I’ve heard from other people who have gone through that program is that it, it, sometimes it’s, feels like you’re drinking from a fire hose, and it’s just so much information being thrown at you, much of which you don’t need right now. But you might need six months, a year, two years from now.
And at that point you’ve forgotten it because you’re, you’re being fed so much stuff all at once and you’ve, you’ve forgotten even where those resources exist. Nevermind, you know, that, you know how to, how to look ’em up and everything. So, you know, it’s, it’s just a lot of information and, you know, I, I, and then, you know, you get pamphlets, brochures, things like that.
You bring ’em home, you file ’em away, and then [00:43:00] you, you’re cleaning out that junk drawer and they go along with it. And you know, then where, where is all that information? So, you know, it, it, you’re absolutely right. It’s well intentioned. I just, probably not as well executed as it could be. Right.
Rob Sarver: Mm-hmm.
Scott DeLuzio: Well guys, I. I feel like this conversation could probably keep going you know, forever because we, I, I think, are only just scratching the surface as far as some of the issues that, that veterans are having. The conversations that you’ve had with all those veterans that you’ve compiled into this book are probably a key source of you know, maybe inspiration or, or guiding light for some other folks who might pick up this book.
But. From your points of view for a veteran or their family member or somebody who’s out there who picks up a copy of this book what’s the key takeaway? What, what do you hope that they get from this book?[00:44:00]
Rob Sarver: I would say in keeping with the spirit of all using Veterans Voices and not just Alex and I telling folks what to do, is by hearing these other voices of these other stories that that veteran could have. Recognition of the power of choice to control their own narrative and control their own story and this, they just have to make the choice.
Scott DeLuzio: There’s a whole lot of power in that, that message there that, that you have the choice and you know, you’re, you’re, you’re not a victim of, of the circumstances. You, you choose your, your path and you choose your journey. Right?
Alex Gendzier: You have this choice every morning when you wake up.
Scott DeLuzio: that’s right. Yeah.
Alex Gendzier: I would, I would add to that one of the takeaways is everyone has a difficult moment, a difficult life transition. We hope. One thing folks get out of this from hearing the voices of others and the very practical steps is you should never give up.
There’s always light around the corner. Gone comes after the [00:45:00] darkest time of the day and there are new therapies, there’s new support. There’s new brothers and sisters that are out there. Never give up.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. I, I, I tell people if, if you think you’ve tried everything, you’ve got no idea. There’s so much out there,
Alex Gendzier: Well, that’s a very, it’s a very human reaction. It’s just that, it’s just that there’s. There’s ways to get through it and, and we can help you.
Scott DeLuzio: Absolutely. And I, I like that we can help you and, and, and this is, this is a, a group effort. And don’t be afraid to reach out to somebody and, and get the help that you need. And, and that’s. I think a great place to, to leave this again. You, you mentioned the book is available warrior to Civilian.
The field Manual for the Hero’s Journey is available on Amazon and also on your website. I’ll have links to both of those in the show notes for the listeners and certainly I, I. I wish you two the, the best of luck with the this book because it’s, like you said, it’s filling a [00:46:00] void. It’s something that’s certainly needed by the veteran community.
And I really do encourage the listeners to go out and get a copy of the book whether it’s for yourself or maybe somebody that you know, who might be going through that transition and, and having some you know, some, some issues with, with that transition. Whether actually, you know what, I’m gonna take that back whether they’re having issues or not because like we got done talking about we’re all gonna end up having, you know, highs and lows and stuff.
So get the copy of the book anyways and you know, that way you have that, that tool set in your, in your back pocket when that time comes. So, gentlemen, thank you so much for taking the time to come on. I really did appreciate it.
Rob Sarver: Thank you for having us. Thanks.