Episode 493 Patrick Naughton What Vietnam Taught Us About the GWOT Transcript
This transcript is from episode 493 with guest Patrick Naughton.
Scott DeLuzio: [00:00:00] leaving the military doesn’t mean leaving behind the weight of war. Maybe you’re wrestling with how your service shaped you, or you’re trying to make sense of the lessons that history keeps teaching us, but the leaders seem to ignore. What if you can’t see those patterns clearly? How past wars shaped our service and how your service can shape what’s next for you.
Imagine feeling like you’re not alone in that struggle, like your experience is part of a larger story that actually matters. Today we’re talking with Lieutenant Colonel Patrick Naughton, a soldier, historian, and author of Born From War, about the generally generational impact of military service leadership lessons from Iraq, Afghanistan, and Vietnam, and what history tells us about the way we treat our veterans, his unique perspective, both as an infantryman and later as a medical officer offer.
Insight on leadership transition and the scars that [00:01:00] service leaves behind. But before we dig into this episode, make sure you’re, you are subscribed to the email newsletter at Drive On Podcast dot com slash subscribe. You’ll get my five favorite episodes sent straight to your inbox. No fluff, just the best insights to help you drive on.
I also wanna take a moment to raise awareness for something deeply important to our community, the Global War on Terrorism Memorial Foundation. This organization is working to build a permanent national memorial in Washington DC to honor the service members, families, and civilians impacted by the global war on terrorism.
This memorial serves as both a tribute to those who served, and also a way to ensure that their sacrifices are recognized and remembered for generations to come. If you wanna learn more about how you can support the mission, visit gwot memorial foundation.org. That’s GWOT memorial foundation.org. Now, let’s get into today’s episode.[00:02:00]
Patrick, welcome to the show. I’m really glad to have you here. Looking forward to this conversation.
Patrick Naughton: Yeah, no, I appreciate the invite. Definitely honored to be here, and I’m also looking
forward to it.
Scott DeLuzio: it. Yeah, absolutely. Um, tell us a little bit about your, your background, how you got into the military, kind of the things that you did in the, the service and, uh, then kind of lead up know, what you’re, you’re doing now.
Patrick Naughton: Sure. Yeah. So it’s, it’s, it’s been a long run. Joined, uh, 11. So I joined in, uh, 1996, um, Joined in, uh, delayed entry program. So, you know, my, my, my dad signed me off at 17, uh, it was 11 Bravo, went to the hundred first for about three years. I got out for a little bit, then I was in the National Guard, the, um, Guard, still is in 11 Bravo couple more years.
And then I went to, uh, I moved to Las Vegas, went to ROTC did about three years of that, got [00:03:00] commissioned, came back in, in, uh, December, 2004 and then, uh, came back in, as a medical guy. So I was, uh, infantry when I was enlisted. Uh, became a, actually switched over I was a, sergeant, so an NCO, and then became an officer as a medical guy. But since then, since I commissioned, you know, I’ve had a. A whole bunch of different assignments that are, that are kind of very unique uh, for the Army. I, um, you know, I’ve, I’ve done the, um, traditional, you know, units that everybody kind of goes through as, as a and captain and so on. I. around when I became a captain I some, uh, some uh, different things.
So I was able to do the, um, resident command and general staff college here at Fort Leavenworth, where I’m back again now. while I was able to do the Art of War Scholars program. Then from there I did an inter-agency fellowship with the Army. So I was serving in DC and one of the federal as a member of their staff.
After that, I did two years in Congress as a, as a army liaison. Um, I was with the, on the, on the, on the Senate side. And then after that. I became the G four for the Surgeon General, and then now we’re back in Fort Leavenworth. Um, actually [00:04:00] I was an XO for a field hospital, then became the G four for the Surgeon General, and now I’m back here at Fort Leavenworth teaching at the Command and General Staff College. it’s been a very, very long, interesting career. I,
Scott DeLuzio: Well, it, it is interesting and one of the things that as, as an infantryman you can relate to this, it, we have this. I don’t know what it is about us, but we, we look at everyone else as less than uh, you know, when, when we’re infantry, right? for Doc
Patrick Naughton: right. Yeah. gotta
Scott DeLuzio: around
saves our ass when we, when we do something stupid.
So,
um, so you, you’ve got like the best of both worlds it seems like.
Patrick Naughton: Yeah, it’s been interesting and you know, you know, I will say, you know, if for anybody thinking about joining. Um, you know, if with the infantry and you just do that for you know, three years or whatever it is, that’ll set you up for success for any job you want after you’ll always have that core soldier skills that you can fall back on.
That
makes you really powerful if you wanna switch over to officer or take on a
different role, you know, after that.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. I found in, in my career, some of the, [00:05:00] uh, the officers who have, um, and this is not to knock any of the other
Patrick Naughton: Mm-hmm Yeah
Scott DeLuzio: didn’t go this route, but the officers that first and then became officers understood what. The other guys were, were doing the, the guys who are under them now, who uh, were under their command.
And, um, uh, it, it just seemed like there was a, a greater understanding. So I, I, I always like hearing the, those stories of, to officer, you know,
Patrick Naughton: a shift. And you know, it’s, I’ve, I’ve seen it both, you know, I’ve seen, uh, you know, very successful officers make that sit, that switch. And then I’ve seen some who, uh, have never been able to, to kind of get outta that mindset. So they’re like, oh, I’m gonna be the, you know, all my soldiers are gonna love me.
I’m gonna be the best filling sandbags, then I’m gonna be filling sandbags. And that’s great and that’s noble. But if you’re filling sandbags, then you’re not leading your formation and you’re not in the meetings where you need to be in advocating for your soldiers and so on. Um, so yeah, you gotta kind of find that, that balance, if you will.
Um, so I’ve seen that kind of be good and bad. Turns out for some.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. So, uh, the, just
kind of interesting story. I was kind of [00:06:00] thrown into of situation where I, I was a E five sergeant in, when deployed and just over a matter of different circumstances, our platoon didn’t have an officer like our, our PL was just not there. Um, and our, the, that high next higher ranking, next higher ranking, I became the PL for a little while and.
I was but I was so used to being there with the, the guys, you said, like filling the sandbags, you know, working on the trucks and doing all things that we needed to do to get ready for a mission and. Things started getting a little outta hand and a little hectic and, and getting a little haywire.
And one of the other sergeants in our platoon, he, he looked up, he goes, who the hell’s in charge of
Patrick Naughton: Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: I’m like oh shit. That was
me.
Patrick Naughton: that’s me.
Scott DeLuzio: guess I shouldn’t be doing this stuff. You guys should be
Patrick Naughton: Right, right. Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: know
prepared for this mission. And, you know, letting people know what’s
actually going on and
Patrick Naughton: Right, right.
Scott DeLuzio: leadership stuff.
That,
man, that was, I was just like thrown in the deep end
and
I [00:07:00] Uh but they, they do say like, like when you. Are in the, the military to know your job, all the jobs, you know, but, but also several levels uh, you know, above yours as well. And it’s for that reason. ’cause might just get thrown into a situation like
Patrick Naughton: Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: luckily that only a few days and I was, I was, like thank this is over. Take it back. I don’t want it
Patrick Naughton: Yeah. Right.
Scott DeLuzio: Um, so, uh. Your, Your,
book, uh, born from War, um, tell us about that book, kind of came from and, you know what, it’s all about
Patrick Naughton: So my, my, my, my, father, he was a Vietnam veteran. years. He did, uh, one year in Vietnam, and then one year at Fort Benning, infantry officer. The 82nd Airborne for half of in Vietnam, and then his second half of his Um, he was an Arvin advisor to the South Vietnamese army.
Um, so he kept all of his, his, his letters and his, diary from his time in, his time in, Vietnam. and so, you know, growing up that was always kind there. He never really talked about Vietnam [00:08:00] growing up, but that was kind of one of the things that influenced me to then join the Army. You know, that it was always in the background that my father was a combat veteran from Vietnam.
And so it was always kind of there, you know, and then when you’re a kid, you know, you always dig through your parents’ stuff and so I would find, you know, medals and those little green notebooks with the award. Words in them and so on. They’re not really knowing what that stuff is. So that was really the heavy influence that caused me to join.
But so, you know, I had really, about 10 years ago, I started thinking about, man, I should do something with all of my dad’s stuff. And that’s really when I started getting into writing and, and writing articles and so on. And so I’d always wanted to write a book. So I thought, oh man, it’d be a really cool idea to take my dad’s year in Vietnam.
And then how, you know, write about how that influenced me to then join the Army and then my year in Iraq and kind of a back and forth with the um, similarities between the um, G Wat and then Vietnam. So that’s basically what the book’s about and it talks about all that stuff. So it’s really a hyper-focused on that family part, but it pulls back and talk about some of the, the.
Strategic things that happened behind the scenes for both conflicts. And what I was [00:09:00] really shocked when I did the research is how similar um, the same mistakes that we made in Vietnam were some of the same mistakes that we later made in Iraq and Afghanistan. So it was really interesting to research and find that out.
Scott DeLuzio: just looking at the, the parallels between Vietnam uh, Afghanistan, specifically with the, the withdrawal and
Patrick Naughton: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: it was almost like you could take some of the pictures from the and it was like you can put ’em side by side. And if you didn’t know anything about either of those countries, I don’t know that you would’ve been able to tell the difference between the conflicts because uh, it just.
I mean, it seemed like it was the same, same type of situation. And, um you know, it, it, it kills me too like we, we just, we did that already it, and it wasn’t ago. You know,
Patrick Naughton: Right? It wasn’t, yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: who were in
command, you know, positions were, were around for,
for that type of thing. And yeah, younger obviously, but um, they went to school, they learned about things. They, they some history classes. I’d, I’d presume at [00:10:00] some point, um these same mistakes? Right? But, but that’s kinda what you’re is, is looking at some of these generational impacts too. Right.
And because not only was it from a higher up command level where, where there are people who um,
know, knew what was going on in Vietnam, and then they’re, they’re in some sort of leadership position now in, Um, but there’s also things that. The veterans who were on the ground fighting in Korea, in World War II and all the, these, these other conflicts, but Vietnam specifically.
And they, they come home, they have some issues. They, they’re, they’re dealing with them as best as they can. Um, and, you know, we had our, our guys coming back from Afghanistan, Iraq, others, know, Africa and other places, and they’re, they’re coming a lot of the similar issues and. Are we really dealing with them in the right way?
Are, are we, we learned those lessons or is it very [00:11:00] similar to this withdrawal that, that we’re talking about? you know, how did your father’s experience in Vietnam influence your, your perspective on, on all of these things?
Patrick Naughton: Yeah. You know, as, as I’m doing the re as I’ve done my research for the book and my other articles and so on, you know, I’m always struck about how similar all the experiences are for, for, for, for veterans, whether it was the American Civil War, world War ii, Korea, Vietnam, all the way up to now. And so it’s really striking.
Like he said, you know, you could just remove the war. Whatever clothing they were wearing, and it was almost kind of the same experience when they came back. And for Vietnam, obviously, you know, that’s, that’s really an ugly stain on our national psyche of what happened to the veterans when they came back for, you know, I talk about that in the book.
You know, I’ve interviewed a lot of people that my dad served with and talked about their experience of when they, when they came back through California and there are people at the gate and stuff spitting on them and stuff like that. Um, so that. you know, what happened to the, to the Vietnam veterans is, is huge.
It’s a huge national stain, and I think we’re finally coming to terms with that. You now honoring those Vietnam veterans or [00:12:00] start doing, you know, more parades for them, honor flights, things like that. So some of that, I think we’ve realized the mistake that we, the way that we treated those veterans when they came back.
And so I will say now with Iraq and Afghanistan. You don’t see that, you know, you didn’t, you, you did not see that, you did not see the public turn against the actual soldiers who were being sent overseas to, to, to, to fight. And so I think that’s one of the biggest, I guess, you know, positive lessons that came out of Vietnam is that we learned, okay, you can disagree with the policy, you can disagree and you know, then you can vote.
That’s why we have voting. So you can, you know, make changes in that way if you want to, but you know, you don’t take it out on the soldiers who were sent over there to serve. Um, so I think that’s one of the biggest, you know, positive, I guess, good news stories that you could say that
came outta the war for veterans.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, for sure. There, there’s definitely been a in that mi society, uh, society’s mindset of, uh, the, the war fighter and the men and women who put on that uniform to go and do our country’s work. um, I, I was at a, uh, event. The other night. [00:13:00] And, um, it’s a, um, it was an opening for a, restaurant. Uh, the, the
Patrick Naughton: Mm.
Scott DeLuzio: this isn’t a promo for the
restaurant or anything it was just a an attitude of the, the that I, I experienced while, while I was there. It was just a whole room full of people. Um, all their, their staff and everything were, were there. And, uh, just their appreciation for the military, first responders, for the, men and women who put on a uniform of any sort. Could be police, firefighter, EMS, it could be, um, you know, military, it could be anyone. Um, their, their respect for those people was just extraordinary. And it true respect. It wasn’t this, corporate, let’s just hang a banner support our troops and you know, that. Then we the, the nice pr moment.
It was, it was legitimate. You could tell these people actually cared. And um, I, I was thinking about just, God, what a great time to be. A veteran is, know, in this time period where, don’t have to worry about people spitting on you, calling you names and all these kind of things so you know that, [00:14:00] I mean, just that right there, as you were saying is such A
A
difference in time period where, you know, you come back from war uh, I would imagine, maybe not being totally proud of some of the things that you had to because I mean, some of that stuff, let’s see the, the, the writing on the helmet from uh, I forget whatever, it was from war as hell.
And, you know, and it is, and it it is. And then you come back and people are. even thankful for it. It’s
Patrick Naughton: Yeah.
Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: I even do it for? Right.
So, um, you know, seeing people like your father and other people coming back
from, from these,
um from, from combat over there is, is gotta be, uh, you know, see that, but, but great to see like the shift in attitude towards that.
Right. Um but you know, I’m glad in that.
sense at least history hasn’t repeated itself. Right.
Patrick Naughton: Yeah. that’s definitely a good news story, you know, I uh, you know, we were in DC stationed there and I used to see the honor flights come in every time I was going TDY or whatever, all full of Vietnam [00:15:00] veterans, you know, I write about the book and, uh, you know, people in the airport would all stop and clap, you know, from their busy travels.
Everybody would just stop and cheer them on as they were walking off the plane and so on. definitely very refreshing
to see.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. Now on, on the flip side of that, what were some of the lessons that you think from, from Vietnam that we were talking about, like might’ve been overlooked in Iraq and Afghanistan? The goal of war and terror in general.
Patrick Naughton: Yeah, yeah. You know, there’s this book, it’s called uh, the War Managers, and it was a book written by a, by a general officer who served in Vietnam. And he, uh, blind go who served, you know, from all the branches who served in Vietnam. And they were all able to, you know, answer, um, without retribution, without their names on it And so on.
And the lessons that were in there. you know, I wish that that book had been person who was headed over to Iraq and Afghanistan instead of some of the other stuff that they made us read. ’cause there were so many lessons that could have been learned from that experience in Vietnam that we could apply in Iraq and Afghanistan.
But the two biggest ones, I think are the, you know, [00:16:00] commitment is number one. And so if we’re gonna go to war, if our, if our political leaders decide that we are gonna go pursue a conflict, you know, we cannot move past for, for whatever reason, the, the, the political discussion and we’re gonna move to conflict to, to, to further our aims.
We have to be a hundred percent in um, we cannot do it with a volunteer force. You know, we need to fully mobilize. We need to apply all our resources against it. We have to stop this, this obsession you know, putting the, the, the least amount of resources towards it, trying to get the maximum amount of output.
We have proven time and time again that that does, that does not work. So if we’re gonna commit, we’ve gotta fully commit a force to it, and we’ve gotta commit to it to the long haul. Um, that’s number one. And the second thing is. The, the importance of our advisory role. So, you know, in all Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, we went, we assessed the local forces.
We said, oh, they’re not up to par yet to achieve our aims. So we need to insert American forces in order to buy time for us to train them, get them up to par, to fight their own conflict. But as soon as you insert [00:17:00] American forces on the ground, mission creep takes over, becomes the main effort, and it just takes on a life of its own, a life of its own.
And then those local forces are pushed to the side, they’re still being advised, but it’s no longer that main effort and we’re not putting all our resources behind it. And then all of a sudden we end up, you know, being there for 10 years, we start looking around and saying, what are we doing here? Alright, we’ve gotta turn it back over to the local forces.
And by then it’s too late. We’ve already uh, neglected them for so long and then we, we try to, try to bring them up to speed very quickly and hand it over to them. And as we saw. With the South Vietnamese did not go well. The Iraqi Army, some success stories, you know, it’s not as bad now, but they’re, we’re still supporting them, you know, over the horizon type stuff.
And then obviously Afghanistan. So I think that’s, that’s the two biggest lessons is that, that full commitment, number one. And number two is really assess and, and put our effort behind those local forces if that’s who we’re gonna try to prop up to take over the
conflict.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, tho those local forces. Um, we had some interaction with the army, the, uh, Afghan. Border [00:18:00] police and they’re, We had a bunch of different interactions with the locals and uh, when you, when say not up to par,
Patrick Naughton: Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: I, I, I think they were playing a different game, nevermind being up to
Patrick Naughton: Right, right.
Scott DeLuzio: um, they,
uh, I, mean, we, we would get ’em for training and I mean, if lasted an hour training with us that be a miracle. um, like what do you do with that?
Patrick Naughton: Right. Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: um,
you know, at, at some point. realize I, this is my opinion anyways. You, you may or may not agree with this opinion and that’s, that’s totally fine.
Um, but my opinion is that at some point you have to kind of realize that maybe their want for this is not as great as ours they, they just maybe want to go and just continue living their lives is. And the Taliban’s in charge, then the Taliban’s in charge. somebody else is in charge and somebody else is in charge, but just leave me alone is is maybe the, the attitude that they have.
And so we want, wanted to go and go kick some ass [00:19:00] because we just had, you know, a bunch of our fellow country men and women, uh killed, know, and we wanted to go get some revenge and we, we had
Patrick Naughton: Mm-hmm.
Scott DeLuzio: That, uh, burning desire inside of us, but they really care.
didn’t seem That way Anyways,
Patrick Naughton: And if, and if, if, if that’s the assessment, again, you shift back to that first point is then, okay, if they’re not gonna achieve the goals that we want, then we’ve gotta fully apply our commitment to it and not do it halfheartedly. We’ve gotta fully apply, you know, more than one or two divisions and, and get after what we’re trying to get after.
But again, it goes back to, you know, the, the obsession that we have going back to really to the end of World War II is trying to do this, this, this limited amount. Of commitment and trying to achieve this maximum outcome um, through just air. You know, you see that in the Balkans, oh, we’re just gonna do things from the air, just do tomahawk diplomacy. And it just doesn’t, it doesn’t work, you know, time and again. And, you know, you look at um, he’s, so my dad, you know, he advised the South Vietnamese. Um, the common soldier, the South Vietnamese soldier was a tiger on the battlefield, but once to that operational level, you got [00:20:00] to those brigade and division that’s where it really all fell apart.
And so, you know, it’s interesting. Yeah. Advisory piece, you know, how do you assess it? You know, how do you, how do you find ways to make them gain the same, you know, gain the, or want the same objectives that that, that you do? Yeah, it’s very, very complicated.
Scott DeLuzio: well. And as you’re talking it, it gets me thinking about, um, like a, a company, And I’m not talking military company. I’m, I mean, it, could be that, but you know, in, in a business somebody who’s really great at making whatever widget you’re making a, in a company and they’re the best widget maker that the world has ever seen.
And the company’s like, well, we need to promote this guy, and we to get this guy to, you know. Higher up and, and then he becomes management level and he’s, you know, moving up in, in the company and he starts falling apart he’s not able to perform, he’s not able to do this because what he was good at was making those widgets.
He wasn’t good at leading people. And [00:21:00] so, um, you know, you were talking about the South Vietnamese, south Vietnamese and the, uh, there were the, on uh, they they were absolutely incredible on the battlefield. But when you, you took ’em outta that situation, a leadership role, that’s where things kind of started falling apart.
And so, um, you know, it. Sometimes I, I think we have to look at people for their leadership ability and not their ability to do to do, whatever that job was that they were tasked for you If that makes sense. Right?
Patrick Naughton: Yeah, no, you gotta, you gotta do that analysis and you know that old, um. The bus analogy, you know, you’ve gotta get the right people in the right seats and,
and sometimes you get that wrong.
Scott DeLuzio: That’s right.
That’s
Patrick Naughton: Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: and, it, and it’s unfortunate because, you know,
you, you want to be able to promote those people and get them. Higher pay and higher, and all those, those types of things. But um, at the end of the day, if, if that’s what they’re, they’re
really good at
Patrick Naughton: Excuse
Scott DeLuzio: and if that’s what they’re really what they are, [00:22:00] um, that’s that’s where they want to be, then, then that’s where we I think we’re where we should probably keep ’em and
Patrick Naughton: ’cause some, some people are, you know, they’re not good operational and strategic leaders and that’s perfectly fine. Right. You find that, that the talent where they, they, they fit well in.
And then you just keep em in those roles, you know? Um, Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. So, you know? and, and that’s, I I don’t think that that’s a, a bad thing. Right. But,
Patrick Naughton: Oh yeah. No, not at all.
Scott DeLuzio: you so we’re, we’re
learning lessons, right? We’re, we’re starting to. See some parallels between, you know, Vietnam, between I, Iraq and Afghanistan. But I, I’m saying those, I’m, I mean the global War on terror
Patrick Naughton: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: cause I know there’s other theaters
Patrick Naughton: other theaters
yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: um, but, but the, yeah, between the global War on Terror, terrorism between Vietnam, between, you know, all these different conflicts, we’re, we’re seeing these um, uh, parallels that are, are being drawn there.
Um, and so you’re. [00:23:00] Your Um so you, you’re training future military leaders, um, and we’re talking about leadership and, and you know, at whatever that, that role was, but are they cut out to Are you know, what, what leadership qualities do you look for in that, that type of person that, that you’re, you’re trying to advance?
Yeah. You can be great at. Making that widget, but then you’re, you’re moving up in um, in, into a leadership role. How do we know that we have the right person for that leadership role?
Patrick Naughton: Yeah, I mean, you know, observation how, you know, but kind of the way, you know, a good way to assess it is, you know, going back to the comments earlier about the infantry. So when you’re, when, when, when you’re raised in the infantry, you know, you, you have a certain mindset. If you’re not infantry, you’re not anything.
Um, you know, you’re looking at badges and tabs and so on, and if you don’t have a ranger tab or you don’t have a CIB or whatever it is, then you know, you’re not value added to organization or you can’t speak up at this meeting that we’re in, you know, that [00:24:00] type of thing. So when you’re looking at somebody trying to make a shift from that direct, you know, tactical level leadership, you’re looking at people who can look past that, you know, people who can lead with empathy.
People who can understand, you know, looking past stereotypes, looking past badges and tabs, and try to, you know, use that, that leadership that they have, extend that influence and try to get the best outta that person. ’cause everybody has something valuable to add. Um, and it’s up to you as the leader to try to find what that is exactly what you’re talking about.
You know, putting the buses or the, the. The per the people in the right gotta find out what their skills, knowledge, you know, knowledge, skills, attributes are as that leader. Discover that from everybody and then put them in the right roles and so on. So that’s, that’s really what you want once you start getting to that operational level of leadership is being able to look past, you know, all that stuff, that stuff that doesn’t really mean anything.
And really be able to assess people all the way down to their core. And then being able to find the best value, get the best value outta them, and put ’em in the right places and so on.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, that’s right. And. Putting ’em in the right places too. [00:25:00] You know, not trying to fit a square peg through a And if that person’s not cut out for, you know, a certain position, then okay, not a You’re not cut out for it. And that’s it, is what it’s, and, and we’ll, we’ll get the right person in that, that role.
And, um, as, as a group, we all get better when we have the right people in the right role.
because otherwise you end up having somebody who. They very effectively then, then there’s that, the issue, like I was dealing with that, that I was talking about earlier when someone was like, well, who the hell’s in charge?
And It’s like
Patrick Naughton: Right? Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: You know it’s like,
You end up with,
with situations like that. And I like, I wasn’t the right person for that. I
mean, I have been with the Right? training in, in, in whatever, but I, I was just kind of thrown into it. And so, I was not the right at that point. And, and I was super relieved when I was no longer position.
But,
Patrick Naughton: And then, you know, and, and, and also at that level, you know, you, you talk about finding, you know, the right talent and molding people and so on, but you know, sometimes that, that that individual is just not cut out for the military or the organization that [00:26:00] you’re in. And so, you know, as that leader, you have to also be able to, sometimes the best thing for that person and for the organization is to separate that person from the organization.
So you’ve gotta be able to do that as well as a leader and, and not try to be everybody’s best friend. You know, you’re, you’re the leader. So at the same time, someone who just, you know, you give them chances. If they absolutely are just not cut out for whatever reason, then, you know,
you’ve gotta, you’ve gotta separate them from the
organization.
Scott DeLuzio: Right. Yeah. I mean, you’re Right. there. There’s sometimes that nurturing that person and, and helping them grow and, and whatever could, could help get them into, you know, could mold them into the right uh, person. But, um, I. but sometimes you, you can, you can, I think we’ve all probably had some people in military careers where ah, you what?
I don’t know how
that
Patrick Naughton: It’s just not working
Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: You Um, but the, the recruiter was
thinking about,
Patrick Naughton: Numbers. Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: numbers making sure that they met their quota for
Patrick Naughton: Yeah
Scott DeLuzio: Um,
that’s their, I guess their obsession,[00:27:00]
Patrick Naughton: yeah.
Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: is that. But, um. You, you, you also talking about quotas and numbers and and, and things like that. You, you do talk about those, those metrics in your you know, as far as, uh, Vietnam Global War on Terrorism, um how can we, how can we look at that and look at, always good to have You, you want to know, you know, certain, certain data points, but,
Patrick Naughton: Mm-hmm
Scott DeLuzio: but it’s more than just that, right?
It’s more than just
Patrick Naughton: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is. You know, and so, you know, being a G Watt veteran, you know, we’ve obviously all of us have been exposed to that, that that obsession with that green metric, right? And so we fought the wars by PowerPoint and Excel spreadsheets trying to chase after these numbers that get us to, to whatever bubble chart that’s green.
And so, like you said, you know, and all this obsession starts with Vietnam. You know, with the body count is kind of the biggest one that, that everybody remembers, but there was a whole host of other metrics that they were measuring and like our conflicts, it took over and it became the driving force for the war.
And that’s how you were measuring [00:28:00] success. I. Um, that really started with Vietnam and never ended, you know, still kind of going on today, but kind of to a lesser extent, thankfully. But, um, yeah, you know, so conflict messy, right? It’s super messy. Anything with human beings is messy, you know, conflict probably being the, the tip of the spear of that messiness. Um, so trying to, you know, measure that in some type of scientific way, it has value. Like you said, you know, there’s some value to it, but it should not be. The thing that takes over and becomes the forefront and becomes a driving force for everything that that we’re doing. So yeah, okay, we’ve got a green metric, but what’s actually behind that?
Like, let’s talk about what’s behind that, that made that green metric. How did we get there? What human things did we do? How did we influence whatever to get to that metric versus this, alright, it’s green. Why is it 72? And it should be, you know, 82. Let’s get four numbers on there, you know? And then so that also has really harmed the profession, the military as a profession as well.
Because now you’re putting pressure pe on people to fudge numbers, and everybody in the military has, has seen that happen. And once the that fudging starts happening, it really starts [00:29:00] eroding away at that, that at our profession. So I think there’s value added, but there’s definitely a danger to it. We shouldn’t become s obsessed with it.
You know, it’s a tool, but it’s not the end all be all to anytime we go into conflict, that becomes our, our our way to measure
success, if you will.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. and it really makes those data points irrelevant. if we’re start fudging numbers and just whatever, just to get a green and and pass whatever that metric is, it, that metric is useless it once.
Patrick Naughton: Yeah. And then once we get green, we’re like next. And And there’s still, there’s still stuff in there that metric that we need to focus on, but because we, we got it to green, we’re good. Let’s get to the next one and get it to get that next red or amber to
green.
Scott DeLuzio: Right, exactly. And so one, one of the things that I. I I, I look at when I’m, I’m looking at numbers like that what happens after it gets to green. You know, you get, if it’s some performance me metric or, or whatever, and, and you see a, a chart of all, all [00:30:00] the data points that are leading up to that green and, and it gets you know, it’s a rocky road.
It’s going up and, you know, eventually you, you get that green. Okay, cool. Now the focus of whoever was in charge of that. Green metric, whatever that their focus is now on something else. so now you look at that green metric and it’s starting to slip back down
Patrick Naughton: yep. Exactly. Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: so the problem, whatever the problem was that they were trying to solve to to that green metric, never really got solved It got fixed temporarily. You know, like putting duct tape over a, a hole boat or something and you’re, as soon as that duct tape starts to lose, its stickiness, it, you’re gonna that water back in the boat. And, and, and so yeah, temporarily you solve the problem, but you didn’t, or so temporarily you fix the problem, but you
Patrick Naughton: Mm-hmm.
Scott DeLuzio: solve the problem.
And so, you know, when, when you’re looking at those metrics um, I, I think the, the more important thing to your point is what’s going on behind that number? what’s going on to make sure that [00:31:00] that number either stays level where, where it’s at or continues to climb, if that’s the, the that you want it to go, or decrease depending on what it is, you know if a good or a bad metric, depending on on You know, you, you want to, you want to see like, how do we. How do we sustain that?
Patrick Naughton: Mm-hmm.
Scott DeLuzio: that is. Right. And that’s, that’s a challenge when you, you’re just focused on that one pinpoint in time said, yep. Okay. At the end of this quarter we had um, you know. 50% fewer, you know, injuries or, or whatever the, the metric is.
Um, okay, then now let’s go focus on some other metric and now injuries start creeping back
Patrick Naughton: Yep. Yep.
Scott DeLuzio: because you’re not paying attention to the safety and
Patrick Naughton: Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s riding that metric wave, right? And so I, I’m hoping that, um, you know, the ai, you know, we’re really kind of leaning into ai, so I’m hoping that it’s, it doesn’t go the way that metrics driving force for everything that we’re doing.
I’m hoping that [00:32:00] AI will be able to. To look across all those metrics, right. And be able to get after exactly what you’re just saying, and hopefully find trends and find the discovery behind them. Um, you know, that, that would kind of be the goal of ai. I, I would hope
that we’re able to do with it.
Scott DeLuzio: Well, I, and that, that’s actually an
interesting point I found that AI is able to take a large data set and. Kinda just sift through all of the data and, make sense of it in a way that you and I could do, you know, we’re intelligent people. We can, we can do it, it might take me a week or two to sift, through all of it, and start, you know, compiling charts and making the grass and stuff like that where you feed it to AI and uh, you know, let it do its thing. and sometimes within, you know, a minute or so you have. All of that same and, and everything like that. And so that in my mind is the ideal situation because then you can, you can now start digging into those numbers [00:33:00] instead of just playing around with those and, and
Patrick Naughton: Yeah, no, exactly. And you know, hopefully AI will take that more holistic approach. You know, one of, one of the interesting metrics in Vietnam, you know, I wrote about in the book as well, is that, so they were tracking how many weapons they, they, they were capturing on the battlefield from the enemy.
And so this was a number, right? I captured 10 AK 40 sevens today, and I captured 15 AK 40 sevens today, the next day. And then, you know, they traced that over time and the number was just going up hugely. You know, over the years. And so the way they assess that is that, oh, the, the NVA and the Vietcong, we are, we are hammering them so hard that they don’t even have time to recover their, their, their um, their weapons off their dead soldiers and so on.
And what it turned out being is that. They were being so well supplied from China that they lost an AK 47 or an older machine gun or whatever, they didn’t care. They just left it there because they had 10 more back, back, you know, hidden somewhere. So, you know, maybe AI could have taken that more holistic approach than look at, you know, Chinese arm sales and all those things that maybe we would not have even at, have, have [00:34:00] assessed at our level and been able to get that broader picture.
You know? I don’t know. Hopefully, hopefully that’s what we can do with it.
Scott DeLuzio: Well, and you know there’s another interesting, uh. thing that, that, I think came outta World War ii. I, I forget exactly which war it came out of, but they were looking at the, uh, the planes that were coming they looking where the bullet holes were hitting
Patrick Naughton: Right. Yeah, I read that. Yeah,
Scott DeLuzio: plane
And were, they were looking at those and they’re like, okay, well
we need to, uh, the first thought was we need to strengthen the armor where these bullet are, are hitting. And then someone was like, well, no, the armor where the bullet holes aren’t because. The planes that aren’t making it back are the are getting bullet holes in those places we strengthen it in the opposite locations. It was a little counterintuitive, but was, it was just that, like the light bulb went off in that one guy’s head and, and it, it made, it made him say, well, no, let’s let those, those are the planes that made back. obviously capable bullet holes in these locations. Let’s not worry about those
Patrick Naughton: Right. yeah,
Scott DeLuzio: Let’s worry about those other [00:35:00]
you know, the
Patrick Naughton: That’s
Scott DeLuzio: or whatever, know.
Um
and so. You know, it’s, it’s that
j uh, we, we can get into statistics and these kind of things, right? But, um, you know, and we can, uh, I probably nerd out about that, that kind stuff quite a bit. But um,
but when, you lose that human, uh touch then you’re, you’re just looking at numbers and you might as well just be a That’s at, right? If you, the computer and just say whatever it tells me, yes or no, or, you know, good or bad, or, or whatever it is um, you know, green or red or, know, some other metric, uh, then you, you’re missing that.
So, so yeah, fine. Use the computer, use the AI Use the, are out there, but use them in a way that enables you to. Make faster decisions based on that data and but still incorporate some of that human,
Patrick Naughton: Yeah, absolutely. You know, [00:36:00] that’s, that’s, that’s kinda the danger of it. Um, you know, if you put somebody like me and try to take, you know, train me to, to read and assess something that comes out of ai, probably not gonna successful. So, you know, we see this younger generation coming up. They’re gonna be growing up with ai, so when they come into the Army, you know, it’s gonna be very comfortable for them.
They’re gonna know. You know how to assess that data and so on, and put that human
touch onto it, at least I hope. But yeah, no, it’s a very good
point.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And you know, I’m, I’m looking at like, my, my kids, they’re, they’re not yet of military age, but you know, the, the things that they are doing with computers, and I think to myself at, at their age and the things I was doing with computers, like, I. Night and day, you might as I might as well been, been a caveman at that point with things that I was doing.
Um, and, and they’re, they’re doing all sorts of, of crazy things and
Patrick Naughton: Mm-hmm.
Scott DeLuzio: it’s great. Um, but I that, um,
they. The people in this generation, they lose some of the, the [00:37:00] skills that maybe we were up. Um, I’m, I’m sure your teachers, your math teachers in school were, were, were telling you that you’re, you’re not gonna have a calculator to carry around time And turns out that was wrong,
Patrick Naughton: Yeah,
wrong. It’s not true at all.
Yeah,
Scott DeLuzio: But, but you know, like we had
to learn how to do mental math and kids nowadays, like why, like everybody has a calculator. Why, why would
Patrick Naughton: yeah. No, you know, as, as a historian um, you know, young, younger kids now, they can’t even read cursive. So they can’t even read, you know, letters from the Civil War or whatever. Um, interesting.
Scott DeLuzio: It is. That is interesting. That’s one thing that we
make sure that we taught our kids is, is
Patrick Naughton: Oh, nice.
Scott DeLuzio: so that they don’t
lose But, you’re right. Like it, a lot of their
peers don’t know how
to how
Patrick Naughton: You don’t teach it anymore. Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: And, and it’s, that’s a dying art form.
Patrick Naughton: Yep.
Scott DeLuzio: you know, that’s, I mean, that’s the way the whole world communicated, you know, in written language anyways.
Patrick Naughton: yeah
Scott DeLuzio: For the longest time.
And
Patrick Naughton: yeah, [00:38:00] Long
Scott DeLuzio: look, looking back at even like
old historical documents, the Declaration
Patrick Naughton: Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: so are all Incursive.
Patrick Naughton: And cursive. Yeah,
Scott DeLuzio: Good luck.
Patrick Naughton: Yeah,
yeah. It’s true.
Scott DeLuzio: so
I Your book also
touches on some of the, just kind of shifting gears a little bit here, touches on some of the struggles of reintegration.
Um, I’m, I’m sure you experienced some of that with your, your father, you know, prob maybe even yourself a little bit as well. But, um, what, what advice do you have for veterans who disconnected from civilian life?
Patrick Naughton: Yeah. You know, I mean, there’s kind of, one of the things I, I always try to try to tell people who are transitioning and so on. Is, you know, everybody always tells you that, hey, a lot of your skills are not transferrable, you know, from the military to the civilian world. So, you know, if you were an infantry officer or an armor officer or whatever, you know, there’s not really a lot of jobs, you know, driving tanks and things like that.
So like, so they always tell you that you know, you have to change the way that you. That you act and you have to [00:39:00] change the way that you, you know, present yourself in some ways and some of those skills and understand that those are not desirable skills for the civilian market and so on. So I would say, yeah, that’s a valid, valid point, but I.
I would focus on the skills that are transferable. And they’re really just basic skills that many in society do not have and the civilian society do not have. And they’re just like simple little things like proper grooming, right? Showing up to a job, interview with your haircut, you know, um, shaving, I mean, that’s.
Things that are driven to you that, you know, a lot of people in society don’t even, don’t even think about that. And they show up with dirty shirts and things like that, being time um, standing up when your boss comes and talks to you when you’re sitting at your desk. Um, just little things like that. You know, being respectful towards people, looking people in the eye, shaking their hand, you know, all those little things that you the military, which you don’t realize are really strengths for you lot of society does not have and does not really practice anymore. So I always say.
Yes, understand that there’s some things that are non-transferrable, but you also have a host of [00:40:00] like basic skills that are, that you think are not highly valuable, but they are. And so focus on those as you’re doing that, that, that reintegration, ’cause that’s gonna take you a very long way. And then the second thing is, you know, that, that disconnection, that that, that you might feel.
Um, I always, you know, try to find something that you can pour some of your passion into. You know, most of us who join the military passionate people, even though we try to Hide it and say that we’re tough and so on, but we join it because we wanna be part of something bigger. You know, we find, I.
You know, wearing that flag on our shoulder and being defending the constitution and all those types of things, we find that honorable and we find that that’s a passion in us. So you’ve gotta find something that you can now pour that passion into. So for me, it’s writing. Um, but for others it might be simple things like, I don’t know, cooking, working on engines, I mean, whatever. You know, a podcast for you, something like can pour your passion into and that’ll help you, in my opinion, you know, make that reintegration and, and find a substitute
for that passion that you miss in the military.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, [00:41:00] and I like the how you, you used examples of things that are not necessarily your job
Patrick Naughton: Great.
Scott DeLuzio: You, you can have a job doing whatever, but you could still have that, that other passion, passion project, a hobby uh, thing like that, that’s on the side. That’s a thing that you, you come home to at, at night and you get to, you get to look forward to that thing that get to do. know, maybe it’s working on an engine or, or making a nice meal for your family or, um, you know, working in your garden or the be. You know, there’s, there’s so many different things out there that, that people could be, uh, passionate but. I found that, uh, having, or sorry, not having, something
Patrick Naughton: Mm-hmm.
Scott DeLuzio: you have, like
what do you have to look forward to? if, if you hate that job and you’re like, oh man, you know, obviously if you hate your job, like not ideal situation. That, that’s maybe extreme example. But if you’re, if you’re, you know, just. Lukewarm about the job and, and it’s know, the thing that’s paying the [00:42:00] bills. Well, think about it.
Like, it’s the thing that enables you to be able to do those things that do enjoy and um, you know, look at it that way and, and able to,
um, go, going back to some of first points that you, you’re showing up on time, um having a, a good haircut and, you, know, looking presentable and.
all that, all that stuff is set you ahead of
Patrick Naughton: Big time.
Scott DeLuzio: 80, 90% of the
population. Um, and then, then that extra
10, 20% is gonna be
your your work ethic. You know, the abilities that you bring table. Your, and let, let’s face it, I, everybody who has ever served in the military, I don’t care for, you know.
Two or three years, or up to 20 plus years um, we’ve all learned how to do something. We all, we all are trainable. And so even you are an infantryman [00:43:00] and yeah, sure, there’s not a whole lot of jobs that you’re gonna be applying infantry skills and to. In the world, you might be a mercenary or something and maybe you can find a job like that.
But um, you know, let’s just face it, most people are not gonna find
types of jobs. Um, but if you can do those, those that I was, that was, that you were, uh, bringing up, and all those, things, hey, you had to learn how to be an infantryman, even go into the. The the. Marines or whatever being an infantryman with skills, have to learn and so learn how to do another job too.
And
Patrick Naughton: yeah. And you know, with that, with that learning. You know, you, you’ve, you’ve gotta be able to check your ego a little bit um, because, you know, if you’re coming out again, perfect example. Infantrymen got trained by a bunch of, you know, hardcore drill sergeants to spend time in the 82nd outta planes, and now I’m transitioning to whatever, and I’ve got maybe a 24, 20 5-year-old training me to do this job.
You know, in the back of your mind, oh, wait [00:44:00] a minute, I, I. Done all these cool things, like, why am I listening to you? You know, you’ve gotta be able to kind of check your ego a little bit. I’d be like, all right, this person’s 24, 25. But they obviously know this skill because they’re, they’re training me in this PO for, for this position.
So I’ve gotta really, you know, pick their brain and really actually learn. I. Um, what my, what my new job’s gonna be. Um, so yeah, I. think definitely like all those things that you just talked about, but at the same time, you know, we’ve also gotta be able to kind of check ourselves bit when we make that transition. Um, and when we’re dealing with people who have know nothing about the military and have no experience with it, et cetera.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. it, it that, that’s a great it. It’s gotta be hard for some people who um, are, are coming out, maybe they’re, you know, 30, 35 years old,
Patrick Naughton: Right.
Scott DeLuzio: and they’re, being trained by a 25-year-old guy. and like, really? I gotta
listen to
you like
Patrick Naughton: Yeah.
Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: you might still
live at home with your your or, you know, it’s like, like, why am I listening to you?
But, but they’re the ones who have been doing for the last few years you And so yeah, you got stuff to learn and [00:45:00] yeah, be, be humble and, um. I got into the military. I was a little bit older than, than most people are when they, they get in um, you know, I was like, somewhere around there.
Um, not not too incredibly
but I, same age as some of my drill in instructors uh the drill sergeants. And, um, uh you know, when, when I was. I was going through it is like, you know, almost peers. like, we’re school
together, you know, and um, but I
didn’t change the fact that there were, there were still. Screaming down my, my screaming in know, telling me to do pushups and do all these things. and if I had a chip on my shoulder, you know how many more pushups I would’ve had to
Patrick Naughton: Yeah
right. Exactly.
Scott DeLuzio: I’m that ego
Patrick Naughton: yeah. Definitely.
Scott DeLuzio: know, think of that 25-year-old kid
who’s, who’s training you as your, your drill
sergeant or drill or whatever um, you know. You start getting a chip on your shoulder, go smoke yourself and, and
Patrick Naughton: That’s the way do
Scott DeLuzio: it out of the way.
Patrick Naughton: [00:46:00] That’s a good point. funny.
Scott DeLuzio: But, uh,
but yeah, I mean it, the, it’s, it’s just
mindset, right? It, you gotta have the right mindset going into these things and, and um, you know, I know, I know we have a lot of issues with mental health, uh, going into, you know, uh, sorry, people coming out of the Um, we had it in Vietnam. We just didn’t. Talk about it much in prior conflicts, we talk, we’re talking about it now a little bit more um, you know, we’re, we are seeing the suicide rates that are, are going up, um, you know, amongst post nine 11 veterans, but even Vietnam era, It, was, I was actually surprised I, a few years ago I was looking at some of numbers and, um, a good chunk of. 22 a day number was coming from people who were in their sixties and seventies. And, that’s, that’s, that’s not our generation, that, that’s the older uh, you know, Vietnam era And, that, that was, that was kind of surprising to me. I was, I was expecting it all to be, like post nine 11 uh,
Patrick Naughton: Right. Yeah. [00:47:00]
Scott DeLuzio: um, but
to say that post nine 11 veterans aren’t having that problem too. So, um. You know, we, we gotta have to those people to seek help. And, you know I whether it’s Vietnam era, whether post nine 11 or, or any of those eras, you know
Patrick Naughton: Mm-hmm.
Scott DeLuzio: struggling, go, go get some help, talk to somebody and, and
Patrick Naughton: No, absolutely. Yeah, I agree. And you know, doing the research for the book and so on. You know, it kind of made me realize, and this is probably true for a lot of G wad veterans, is that, you know, I know, I know more people who committed suicide than I do who died in combat in G wat, you know, so, and I think it’s probably probably the true for most of us.
And so, you know, Vietnam, you know, when I asked my dad’s generation about it. Kind of like you just alluded to. They were like, oh, that was not our problem. That’s your generation’s problem. But it’s not true. I mean, it’s been every, every conflict’s problem has had that exact same thing. Like you said, they just didn’t talk about it.
So I think, you know, the beauty of today is that there’s so many different avenues and mediums that are talking about it. For example, your podcast, there’s the, [00:48:00] you know, mainstream media. There’s all types of, you know, vs veteran service organizations that are trying to offer help and things like that. So I think it’s great that it’s, it’s.
Really being brought into the open, which I think is a very positive thing for our generation. And so, you know, I applaud you for what you’re doing um, with this podcast and, and, you know, really bringing that and making it not uncomfortable to talk about
anymore.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and I you know, I, I try to guess, I guess you could say lead by example, because I, I’ll come out on, on this show and I’ll talk about my struggles, the things that I’ve done, and, uh, to, to get help and go get mental health, uh, you know, support and, and utilize those resources. and, sometimes for those people who are. Out there struggling and suffering alone, and they’re like, ah, you know, I’ll, I’ll be fine. You know, I’m, I’m tough I can deal with it and, and all that. Sometimes all they need to do is just hear that, Hey, It’s okay okay go talk about
Patrick Naughton: Yeah.
Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: get the help that you need. and
and that’s, that’s what I try to do.
It’s like I’m not perfect. [00:49:00] Like I’m sitting here, I’m, I’m hosting this podcast and I’m trying to share resources and stories from other people, but I’m not perfect either. And I I need help. I, like, I still go to therapy and
Patrick Naughton: Yeah. Good. Good?
Scott DeLuzio: You know, I, I,
I, I’m, I’m a, I look at myself as a
continuous work in progress and I’ll, you know, maybe I’ll get there eventually, but today’s that day.
And so I, I’m gonna, I still got work to do and I’m gonna keep doing the work until till I don’t need to do it anymore. And, and, um, you know, I, if, if you’re, if you’re out there And, you’re, you’re struggling, you’re suffering, and you’re. Just kicking the can down doing anything to better yourself or, or change whatever situation that you find yourself in.
Patrick Naughton: Mm-hmm.
Scott DeLuzio: I don’t know, man, look in the mirror. That’s, that’s kind of kind of your Like you gotta you gotta figure it out and, and um,
do something to, to make that change. Um,
Patrick Naughton: and it kinda goes back to that, that passion piece, which we talked about earlier. that passion, [00:50:00] you know, something else is hole, whether it’s alcohol, drugs, depression, something is gonna take that space over. So it’s really important to find that passion. And, you know, and I’ll say for kinda a plug for senior leadership, you know, both in the military and for in the civilian world, you know, a lot of senior leaders now will, you know, they, they kind of poo poo social media. Not understanding that the younger generation, that’s where they’re, they’re now living out their lives for good, bad, or, you know, whatever. But um, so if you’re not in that space, you’re missing out a whole lot as a leader. So you, you know, you can, I can’t tell you how many, suicides I prevented because I was friends on social media with one of my subordinates and I saw something that they put in there that.
Really set off some alarm bells and we were able to intervene and get them help when they needed it. So I would say not to be, you know, for a senior leader, older person, I would say don’t be afraid of social media. Embrace it, you know, use it for what it is, and that way you can kind of monitor your subordinates and really be able to offer them help when they need it, if they’re afraid to come out and ask for it themselves for whatever reason.
Scott DeLuzio: yeah. That, [00:51:00] that’s a great, uh, great point because, um, uh, yeah, you may not be out there posting,
Patrick Naughton: Mm-hmm. Hmm Yeah. Yeah. You don’t have to post anything. Just what they’re posting. Yeah,
Scott DeLuzio: You know, you know, get it set up and, and, you know, get in touch with people and it, and, and. it for the connection tool that I think it was
Patrick Naughton: Four. Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: not sharing like stupid cat
Patrick Naughton: Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: stuff
Patrick Naughton: Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: Um, but but Yeah.
use it, use it for that
purpose and, and that way, um, I. You know, God forbid someone is reaching out for all their other friends, their, their feeds are filled with like we were talking about. Um
they may, they might just miss it because they didn’t,
they, it didn’t pop up in their feed.
But if it pops up in yours, maybe you’re,
Patrick Naughton: Yeah. exactly.
Scott DeLuzio: you know, so, so yeah. Be there, be there for, for them. You know, in a, if you’re in a leadership position, I would suggest that you make sure that your subordinates know [00:52:00] that they can reach out to you if, if they need, need, that type of help.
And, and gonna be like a, you know, now, now your career’s in jeopardy because
Patrick Naughton: Right. Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: get, get help. You know, like,
don’t
don’t be don’t be that guy, you
Patrick Naughton: don’t be
that guy. Definitely.
Scott DeLuzio: Um, well. Uh, man, this has been a, a great conversation. ground, um, didn’t want to get too in the weeds on your book because I I, do want people to go out and get a copy of the book uh, and actually read the book instead of. it dictated to him Right. now Um
but, um, but this has been, to me, it’s been you know, an enlightening conversation. And, and I, I think, based on some of talked about with your book, um, the book’s gonna be very enlightening as well, uh, for lot listeners who, who, pick up copy. Um, will people be able to go and, and get a copy if, after they, they hear this interview?
Patrick Naughton: Yeah, so it’s, uh, um, well, you’re May 27th. So yeah, [00:53:00] they can get it through, uh, case Mate books. They can just Google Born impact of conflict. they can also, um, it’s also available Barnes and Noble, you know, Amazon.
Um, probably the easiest way is just to go to my website and that’s just, uh, pat So pat you know, N as in November, A-U-G-H-T-O n.com. And then from there, you know, it’ll link you to, to, to go where, where, where you can go purchase the book. But, you know, with the book, I really try to appeal to a broader audience.
So for anybody who’s, you know, listening to this, you know, it’s not just another war book. It’s, it has everything you can think of. If, if you’re looking for that academic piece of the argument before, between both conflicts, it’s there if you want that, that human story, the human interest story of generational impact of conflict on society.
It’s there if you want some war stories. It’s there, like it’s all there in that book, you know? And so I’m trying to, right now there’s, there’s, there’s a real gap between those who serve and then the rest of society. I really wanted to try to create a book that would help with that understanding, kind of trying to.
Close that [00:54:00] gap a little bit, and so I hope I, that’s what I achieved with the book. And yeah, again, pat pat naughton.com. That’s the probably the best place to go if you’re
interested in, in purchasing a copy.
Scott DeLuzio: Excellent. Well, I’ll have links to all of that in the show notes for listeners, and I’ll, I’ll make sure that they get, um, access to all of that Um, but really it’s been a pleasure, uh, speaking with you, um, insights and some of the stories Uh, that kind of came from, um, your research uh, what went into this book.
Uh, I think the book’s gonna be a great Um, and, looking forward to hearing more about it, you know, down
Patrick Naughton: No, it. Thank you so much for having me on the show. Uh, conversation that you’re doing. You’re, you’re, you’re doing for well?
Scott DeLuzio: Absolutely. Thanks so much