Episode 502 Mike & Ann Swanson Meditation Tools for Veterans Transcript

This transcript is from episode 502 with guests Mike & Ann Swanson.

Scott DeLuzio: [00:00:00] You wake up in pain again, shoulders are stiff, your knees are aching, and your mind is already racing. Maybe it’s not physical. Maybe it’s the anxiety creeping in. You’ve tried the va, you’ve tried meds. Maybe you’ve even tried, just toughing it out, but nothing seems to be working. Now, imagine a world where the pain doesn’t rule your day, where your anxiety doesn’t hijack your focus, and where you feel in control of your body and your mind.

Again. This episode has all of that for you. We’re talking with Ann and Mike Swanson, a yoga, yoga therapist, and a former army captain about how simple practical meditation and movement practices can reset your nervous system, reduce pain, and sharpen your mental clarity. No incense is required here. But before we dive in, make sure you’re subscribed to the email newsletter at driveonpodcast.com/subscribe You’ll get my five favorite episodes sent straight to your [00:01:00] inbox. No fluff. Just the best insights to help you drive on. I also wanna take a moment to raise awareness for something deeply important to our community. The Global War on Terrorism Memorial Foundation. This organization is working to build a permanent national memorial in Washington DC to honor the service members, families, and civilians impacted by the global war on terrorism.

This memorial serves as both a tribute to those who served and a way to ensure their sacrifices are recognized and remembered for generations to come. If you want to learn more or find out how you can support the mission, visit gwotmemorialfoundation.org

Now let’s get into today to, let’s

Scott DeLuzio: now, let’s get into today’s episode.

Scott DeLuzio: Ann and Michael, uh, welcome to the show. Really glad to have you guys here, both here, and I’m looking forward to our [00:02:00] conversation. Um, but first off, welcome to the show.

Ann Swanson: Thanks, so glad to be here with you, Scott.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I wanna start off just maybe sharing a little bit about your backgrounds. Uh, you know, each of you individually and, uh, you know, Mike with your military background and, and you know, with the work that you do. And, and we can kind of go into. Uh, you know, your, your backgrounds first, and then we can kind of jump into the conversation about, you know, kind of, uh, you know, how, how we apply the practices that you, you teach and, uh, you know, try to help folks out.

But Mike, if, if you don’t mind, tell us maybe a little bit about your yourself and your military background.

Mike Swanson: Yeah, my name is, uh, Mike Swanson. I was a former captain of the United States Army. I served for eight years on active duty. I originally started off my career as an armor officer, 19 Alpha, and then later branch detailed into 35 Alpha as an intelligence officer. Um, a couple highlights for my career. I got to work with the Red Hills Water Crisis in Hawaii, helping, uh, protect the water sources on the island.

[00:03:00] I deployed to Europe a few times and uh, I was the company commander for the epac ace, uh, which covered, um, all sorts of analysis from India to Seattle.

Scott DeLuzio: Oh wow. Okay. Excellent. Excellent. And, uh, Ian, uh, a little bit about yourself.

Ann Swanson: Yeah, so we have very different paths. I, um, I made it to India to study yoga, and I studied Tai Chi and Qigong and China as well as. Doing a Master’s of science graduate degree in yoga therapy. And so I really integrate the Eastern perspective and for my own self, the whole voyage to get to this place was for my own chronic pain and anxiety and, uh, all of these tools from mindfulness.

To meditation to these physical, you know, mind body practices have truly helped, uh, me overcome debilitating pain and anxiety. Um, and then I am met Mike and he [00:04:00] started getting super into meditation and coming to my yoga classes too. So it’s been a, um, joint adventure since then.

Scott DeLuzio: Well, that’s awesome and, and that the both of you found something that works for, for you dealing with, you know, the issues that you are, are both have dealt with through, through your lives. And, uh, you, you, you found these things kind of together almost, and you, you came together anyways and, uh, Maybe, if you don’t mind, and sharing a little bit about the experiences that you were talking about with chronic pain and anxiety and those types of things, how did that, how did that affect you, uh, in your daily life and how did yoga, meditation, and those things, how did that help?

What, what was the path there for you?

Ann Swanson: The thing about chronic pain and anxiety is you can’t necessarily look at somebody and say, oh, they have this disability or this thing holding them back. And I’ve always looked very healthy and happy, but I dealt with chronic pain since I [00:05:00] was a teenager, and I didn’t know that Everybody didn’t feel this like, awful.

If you just. Get a little less sleep or you eat something that inflames you or like it was something that flares, um, you know, based off of the weather, all these triggers that affect my pain. Um, and then as I got older I was like, oh wait, this is not what everybody is dealing with all the time. This is, um, something that I can.

Mitigate through lifestyle, through healthy lifestyle choices. You know, being mindful about what I’m eating and you know what I’m going to sleep, as well as doing movement practices that are finding a pain-free range of motion. I, I know a lot of people with chronic pain, especially joint pain like I have, and fibromyalgia, they feel like I can’t exercise because it makes me feel worse.

Right. But with MINDBODY practices like Tai Chi and yoga, you are able to find pain-free range of motion and adapt to the practices. So that’s been really helpful for me. And then [00:06:00] my anxiety is like a persistent thing, intertwined with the pain, but also. So I have situational anxiety. Mainly when I go to the doctor’s office.

I have situational anxiety, mainly when I go to the doctor’s or like I come to, I don’t know who I am or where I am with that one, because I think a lot of us are told, oh, just notice your breath, notice your body sensations. And we think that’s what meditation is. And when I went to a yoga teacher about this, like. This extreme debilitating anxiety attacks that I’d have. They told me, okay, just meditate. Notice your breath. Notice how you know your body feels and relax. So I went there and I was ready.

I was, I’m not gonna pass out this time. And I noticed my breath and it started to get a little strained. And then I noticed my body and my heart was pounding out in my chest. And then I noticed I was going pale and boom, I’m out, passed out on the floor faster than ever [00:07:00] before. So I did a deep dive into the science of that and apparently when you have that kind of extreme anxiety that like triggers and flares to that intense level like I was dealing with, breath awareness and body awareness make it worse in the moment.

And I think a lot of people have experienced that where they’re like, I have anxiety and people tell me just to notice my breath and body and it makes it worse for me. And like you are not alone. If you’re experiencing that, you’re like, I’ve tried it and it doesn’t work for me. ’cause there’s so many different types of meditations.

So I dove into the research and. You know, it’s not that type that is helpful. What is helpful in those situations is a focal point that’s outside of yourself. So noticing what you see and what you hear, what’s in your environment, um, rather than internal focus points, which, you know, our body feels like it’s.

Betraying us in that moment. So I often do what’s in my, um, new book, uh, meditation for the Real World. I have a technique, I have techniques for like all [00:08:00] different situations, like if you feel anxious like that and pass out of the doctor’s office or, um, any situation you can think of, road rage. Um, but this specific technique is the 3, 3, 3 technique.

So, uh, you can do it as you’re listening, you know, you. Notice three things you see. You know if I, in the doctor’s office, you might see a person, see the table. You name three things you can see, and then you name three things you can hear those of you listening. You hear my voice. Maybe in the background there’s some road noise or something.

Maybe you can even hear something in the foreground. And then you move three body parts. And that might be as simple as moving your shoulders, getting up, standing up on your legs, walking a little bit yawning, just move three body parts. And so that brings the awareness outward and it’s more distraction type meditation.

So there’s like a different meditation for each situation.

Scott DeLuzio: sure. No, and as you were talking, it reminded me of a [00:09:00] meme that I saw it, it’s gone around in like the veteran, uh, circles, and it’s like a veteran goes to a doctor and the doctor says, well, you know what? Describe your pain, like what level of pain do you have? And they say, well, it’s just a normal amount, and the doctor’s like, the normal amount’s zero.

And it’s like, what? You know, like, no. Like I, I always have pain. It’s like constant. And um, you know, so it’s, it’s kind of a, just a funny way to think about about it. But there are people out there who are just living with pain all the time. And, uh, you know, to your point, it doesn’t need, necessarily need to be that way. Um, you, there are things that you can do to kind of help. Per, you know, get rid of some of that pain. Right. And so, um, you know, Mike, you, I want to kind of bring it back to you now. Um, you’ve also had some stressful, uh, experiences through, uh, your command experience and the, the army and maybe the transition out of the army even. Um, how did meditation and yoga help you through all those stressful experiences that you experienced?

Mike Swanson: [00:10:00] Well, Scott, I think one thing that civilians say is that being in the army is like being a civilian, but I think in a lot of ways it’s amplified by exterminating factors such as heightened expectations. Maintaining a clearance was, for instance, an issue with the intelligence community. People tend to lie about their mental health and the intelligence branch because it’s stigmatized and they’re worried that could compromise their ability to do their job, which they love, or, um, managing their roles.

And so for me, in my journey, I recognized immediately that my company was gonna be very challenging. It was doubling in size. I had three bosses, my battalion commander, the G two, the G three, all running around inside my, inside my work site, while the person that I worked with is a lieutenant colonel, that’s the ACE chief.

And so I knew it was gonna be a lot of stress, and the population of my company was on average, 21 years old, going from 68 to 174 [00:11:00] people and very diverse and all locked inside a World War II bunker. That was designed for 40 people. And so I was just looking at this giant time bomb going, I need to come up with a plan.

And so my first move was military OneSource. I got a, you know, a non-medical counselor to go talk through it and get a system in place for preparing for it. And then later I met aunt. And I’ll say the biggest thing about that you can take away as a veteran from listening to what anything has to say is that I.

Addressing your problems is the strongest thing you can do and choosing what works for you. If it’s getting therapy, great. What Anne offers are practices that can avoid the therapists, for instance, we’re working alongside them.

Ann Swanson: Yeah, I would say’s side think that’s more accurate

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah,

Mike Swanson: and uh, but I think what’s key is having another option and, uh, really addressing them directly.[00:12:00]

So I think that’s, um, like I. We had a huge mental health problem in my facility. Everyone had hardly any sunlight working in Hawaii of all places. And so

Ann Swanson: in that bunker,

Mike Swanson: um, I guess one thing that was, um, highlight in my command period was during mental health month, I had three people attempt suicide.

Like it was a non-combat environment that should have been a nine to five, not bad. And we still had that. And so I de-stigmatized it by revealing that. I saw a non-medical counselor myself. Sometimes you have to leave from the front. And when it comes to outcomes, we didn’t have any suicides. But another metric is a 30% increase in people having non-medical counseling.

And uh, I think the real advantage of that is addressing it before you have to get medic medicated. ’cause once you cross that line, it’s really hard to come back.

Scott DeLuzio: Right. And I think one of the things that you just mentioned, which I think is really huge, is that leading from the front, [00:13:00] uh, going and showing that it’s okay to go and get that type of counseling

Ann Swanson: Yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: I mean. I, I talk about this all the time on, on this show, but if, if you had a problem with your car, you know the car’s making a funny noise and it’s making this clunking noise as you’re driving down the road. No one would expect that you’re just gonna, you know what, I’m just gonna muscle through it. I’m just gonna keep driving this car, you know? And, uh, hopefully it’ll just get better and it’ll, it’ll be fine. You’re right. No, no. You’re gonna go take it to a mechanic, figure out what’s wrong with it, and, and get the, the problem resolved so it, it doesn’t become a bigger problem than your car is just a. Really big paperweight, you know, like it’s it, you know, so I think that’s, that’s the key is like, go and get help for the

Ann Swanson: Yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: need help with. I mean, nobody would look at a soldier. if they went to a physical therapist, if they, you know, had a, a knee or a, you know, shoulder or back or problem, you know, other problems that they might have, [00:14:00] uh, no one will look at them crazy for going and, and doing that.

It’s like, well, you obviously need to be in good physical condition to be in the army, so you’re gonna do whatever you can to make sure that you are in peak physical condition. Why not your mental condition as well? Why, what,

Mike Swanson: Absolutely.

Scott DeLuzio: with going to talk to somebody? Um, you know, especially before it gets to that point where, like you were saying, where, where you, need medication because you’ve already crossed that point where it, you’re really not gonna be able to see much benefit without the medication. Um, and so. Yeah, go, go and talk to someone and, um, even like in your case, knowing that, hey, this is gonna get stressful. I’m gonna double the number of people under my command. I’m gonna have all the bosses kind of hovering over. Um, this is gonna be a stressful environment. Let me set myself up for success and go, go talk to someone and, uh, plan for this so that it doesn’t become a big problem like.

I,

Mike Swanson: Absolutely.

Scott DeLuzio: I don’t see anything wrong with that. Like that. Like that is like, like a perfectly [00:15:00] normal, rational way of thinking through things. And, uh, you know, first off, thank you for sharing what it was that you did, but, um, you know, I, I really would hope that more leadership throughout the military would do that type of thing as well, because, um, because well, quite frankly, they’re gonna probably need it.

And also, uh. They may have people under their command who might need it as well, that aren’t seeking it out because they don’t think it’s okay, and that’s that’s

Mike Swanson: Yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: you know? Yeah.

Ann Swanson: Yeah. And I might add that it, of course, it’s great to destigmatize going to therapy, uh, but if you do get to that point where you need medication, there’s. There’s, there shouldn’t be stigma at that point too. So taking medication alongside taking the medication, we’ve seen that yoga and meditation enhance the benefits so that you can get off of them quicker or, um, titrate them down.

And same with preventative, right? Yoga, meditation, and therapy. [00:16:00] All of these things working together can help with the preventative side as well as. Helping make the medications work better so that you can, um, get out of that really sometimes dark place.

Scott DeLuzio: I was talking to someone in a previous episode, uh, not too long ago, but we were, we were talking about how, you know, really what you wanna do is be the best version of yourself, whether it’s physically, whether it’s mentally, um, there are people who depend on you in, you know, in, in your case in, uh, leadership position in the army had. these, these, uh, soldiers who were under your command, they, they relied on you and they depended on you to make the right decisions and, and give the right orders and, and all that. But you also had the people on the other side, the people who were above you in, in those, those other positions who relied on you to take care of those guys and do, do the right things and

Mike Swanson: Yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: accomplished.

Right? And if you’re not. your peak, physical, [00:17:00] mental, whatever conditions, you’re not going to be making the right decisions all the time. I mean, you may get lucky a few times, but you’re not gonna, you’re not gonna make them the, the right decisions all the time. And, and that’s mean that you’re now letting down all of those people.

And that’s, that’s a big problem. Um, and the same reason why you might go to the gym.

Mike Swanson: Yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: you know, lift weights or go for a run or whatever it is that you might do for exercise yoga, uh, you know, anything else that you might do, why wouldn’t you do those other things to help the, the mental, uh, health side of things as well.

And, and, and to your point, Anne, you know, if, if. Someone is at that point where they’re on medication, we want to get them off of those sooner than later. If, if that’s, you know, the, the right course of action. Um, and, and if we have that good foundation, through, you know, those, those practices that you were talking about, it, it really makes it easier to be able to get off of those, those types of things.[00:18:00]

Um,

Ann Swanson: Yeah, the foundation and the tools for those situations. Like I described my situation where it was like an anxiety attack or when my pain flares, you know, there’s different meditation tools that you can use when you’re in those situations. So, um, you don’t panic and instead you have a tool to apply.

Scott DeLuzio: Right. And the more you do those practices, the easier they become

Ann Swanson: Yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: my understanding, right? When, when it becomes kind of second nature, uh, or, or you have the muscle memory if, if you will, it’s not necessarily a, a muscle, but

Ann Swanson: No, I like that. It is muscle memory. You know, I think of this as like a workout for your brain and for your mind. And similar to, like you said already, you go to the gym every day or a few times a week. In order to maintain your health, you need to do the same for your mind. And if you feel like I can’t focus, well that’s more reason to meditate, right?

Because it’s bootcamp for your focus. [00:19:00] It’s going to help you be laser sharp as you’re describing in, in those challenging situations so that you can be your best version of yourself. And a lot of people feel like, I can’t meditate because I’m not good at it. But like you said, you get better at it with time.

It’s a skill. It’s like reading. You’re not born with it. But you learn the skill to read, and then when you do, it opens up all of these doors and opportunities. When you learn the skill of being present, you’re not only being present in that five or 10 minutes, you’re meditating, you’re being present with your child, you’re being present with your boss.

You’re being present in an intense. Situation where you, your life may depend on it or others may also. Um, so it’s, it’s really a skill that pervades in every aspect of your life. So if you feel like you’re not bad at it, the more reason to do it.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Yeah. And, and that was actually gonna be one of those things that I was gonna talk to about is, you know, for people who just feel

Ann Swanson: Yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: at it. Like, like, I’ve tried it [00:20:00] once, uh, it didn’t, didn’t work for me, um, but I got it. out that, how many things have you tried, like first time and you were. Off the, right off the bat. You were a pro, you were, you were an expert at that thing that you tried for the very first time. I can imagine very few things, if anything, that, that people can mention that they were, they were excellent at it the very first time. Um, you might have gotten lucky and, you know, hit a great golf shot the first time you swung your golf club, but that’s not, that’s not the typical case with most people, right? Um, the people who are bad. I like they’re bad at meditating. I think to your point, this is something that takes practice and it

Ann Swanson: Yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: develop over time, and you have to kind of figure out what works for you and what doesn’t work for you and do more of the things that, that does work and provides you the benefit that you’re looking for.

Ann Swanson: Yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: case, you don’t wanna pass out every time you walk into a [00:21:00] doctor’s office, so, okay, well that’s, that’s a good goal to, to, to kind of strive for. Um, so. the things that help you not pass out in a doctor’s office and do those things. And I, I think that’s, um, you, you know, initially, like you said, you tried one thing that didn’t work, um, but then you had to try something else. Um, and eventually you found something, uh, that, that did start to work for you and, and you were able to, uh, kind of overcome that, that issue, right.

Ann Swanson: Yeah, it wasn’t a natural thing for me. I wasn’t a natural meditator actually. I would go to yoga classes and you know, you meditate at the end of the yoga class, and I enjoyed the yoga class, but by the time I got to the meditation part, I was like looking at my watch like I have. Places to go. I have things to do.

I was going through my list of things to do in my head, I thought it was a waste of time. But then after, you know, a year or so of practicing yoga, different techniques from different teachers, every once in a while the teacher would throw in a technique that actually worked for me and I got to [00:22:00] experience that present moment, awareness, experience, letting go of the day for a moment and being fully there and that.

Little glimpse, um, got me hooked, um, and keep coming back. But it takes practice and it takes figuring out which techniques work for you. So, um, if your, if your listeners would like to try, you know, the book Meditation for the Real World has 73 different meditations, so trying different meditations. But also if you go to meditation for the real world.com, I have a, uh, five day meditation challenge, less than 10 minutes a day that you can join.

And it’s. Different techniques each day, kind of explaining them so you can see what works for you. ’cause also what works for me might be different than what works for you. Um, so finding the breath work that works for you, the way of practicing that, that is going to be, uh, like most suited for you.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And so Mike, [00:23:00] when you were just starting to, to kind of dip your toes in this water and try to figure out what was working for you, uh, did you go through several iterations of, uh, different practices? Like was there a little trial and error or, or were you, uh, pretty successful right off the bat.

Mike Swanson: It was actually, it’s a very good question that you’ve asked, um, when it comes to approaching meditation from a military perspective. The biggest thing I think is time making time for it. And um, I feel like in the military it’s always go, go, go and finding time for it really is a capital cost. And um, so that was my big challenge is I’d be five minutes into my 12 minute meditation, I’d be looking at my watch.

And so I think the entry level drug for me was, uh, box breathing for that. Um, it’s a me, it’s a meditation technique used by Navy Seals that Anne taught me. Simply a four second inhale, hold it for four [00:24:00] seconds, then exhale for four seconds, and then release it for four seconds and just keep going in that circle.

And the reason that worked for me so well is if there was an issue, I could. Immediately center on where I am now and not worry about other things going on in the background. And I will say I saw immediate superpowers in that, I guess first off, when having a discussion with your boss or a coworker and it’s getting a bit heated, it kind of started to feel like I was having those shower conversations where you know, you sound completely reasonable and measured and you know what you’re doing.

It’s because I’ve taken a moment to consider and delay my emotional response. See, um, how I feel about it. Oh, this person’s not criticizing me, they’re just frustrated about the situation. And it kind of helps me, you know, keep my head in the, you know, keep my head in the game, which is a real edge in the military or there are bombs flying over your head instead of worrying about, you know, that report they owe your [00:25:00] boss, like that PowerPoint presentation on metrics and things that you’re worried about the problem in front of you.

Yeah. And, um, that’s a real superpower that I appreciated quickly. And then more subtle things like I started structuring my breathing when I was, um, at the shooting range for instance. Um, you know, at the bottom of your breath is when you, you know, release the trigger and then sensing the trigger reset.

If you really put a lot of intention behind, it becomes very meditative and you can focus on what you’re aiming

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah,

Mike Swanson: and, and,

Scott DeLuzio: heard from quite a few people that. The, the gun range is like where they get the best kind of meditation because it’s the,

Mike Swanson: yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: practice is, you know, breathing is a big part of it. The, and, and there’s a lot of senses that, like you said, you could feel the trigger reset. You can, if you pay attention to these things, of course you can go out there Rambo style and just start pulling the trigger and

Mike Swanson: Yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: being crazy like that.

But you’re not, you’re not attention to what’s going on, all those things that are going on around you. And so that’s, that’s probably not the best. Approach [00:26:00] for,

Mike Swanson: Yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: aspect of it, but, um, or maybe therapeutic just to, you know, throw,

Mike Swanson: But then after,

Scott DeLuzio: too.

Mike Swanson: I’ll say later, I got more structured. I started using apps or like Anne’s book and like meditation for the world.com and these things, they really, I. Like structure is what the military needs a reference book like, am I doing this correctly? What do I do with my hands? Do I use, yeah, this mudra, or do I just sit with my palms up?

Ann Swanson: I interviewed him for the book because he was a beginner when I was writing meditation for the Real World, and I asked him, what would you like to know? He is like, you have to have a section about what do I do with my hands? I don’t know what to do with them. How do I. Sit, there’s a section of the book.

How do you sit? Do you have to sit cross like it on the floor with incense? No. You can sit in the chair. You can, you can meditate. The cover of the book is somebody meditating on a, a bus or subway. Right? You can be meditating anywhere. Your eyes could be open. You don’t have to close your eyes. That’s another question he was asking me.

And a lot of, um, people, especially if you have trauma, wanna know, do I have to [00:27:00] close my eyes? No, you don’t.

Mike Swanson: I think the funniest thing was the first meditation she let me through. I was like meditating. I was great, I was good. And she goes, be at ease. And I went, be at ease.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Right. That’s, that’s not a, a relaxed state.

Mike Swanson: Be at rest.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, that’s that. Yeah. There you go. Um, and. It was kind of funny that you, you said like, what, what do I do with my hands? And immediately I thought of, uh, the, the movie Talladega Knight with, uh, will Ferrell, when it’s like his hands are like creeping up during that interview that he’s given. He is like, I don’t know what to do with my hands.

And

Ann Swanson: All experienced that.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, exactly. But. But I think one of the things that you were talking about, the, the box breathing, um, and why I think maybe for someone in the military, why that might, or, or not even in the military, but anybody, um, but. Um, for someone like yourself, why that might have been a, a good, uh, very useful thing to be doing is that could [00:28:00] be doing that box breathing, like in, in your mind, you know what you’re doing, but nobody else around you really is gonna be paying that close attention to, geez, it’s, let’s count how long he’s inhaling for, and then how

Mike Swanson: Yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: before he exhales.

Again, no one cares that much that they’re gonna be paying attention to that. So you could be doing that while you’re. While you’re working and no one’s really gonna be paying attention to it. So, you know, when you, you talk about like, do I have enough time to do this? You know, five minutes into a 12 minute meditation, and I, it’s like, oh my God, I already, I’m already looking for the next thing.

What do I need to do? You could be

Mike Swanson: Yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: while you, you’re working and, uh, it, it really isn’t going to, uh, disrupt the day too much, you know, by, by

Mike Swanson: Not at all.

Ann Swanson: Yeah. I have a lot of one minute meditations in there because that’s, you know, we all can find a minute or less, um, to, to practice. And we can do one in, in this session here if you’d like at some point, maybe close out or whenever you’d like, but yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, sure. And, and you know, maybe if you, you want to do something [00:29:00] like that now we can,

Ann Swanson: Yeah, let’s do it.

Scott DeLuzio: we can do that now and, and we can, uh, you know, just see how it goes.

Ann Swanson: Yeah. The good thing about a lot of the one minute meditations I integrated through the book is you can memorize them like a lot of the meditations from the book, you can memorize and do it real quick. So this is called a Five Senses Meditation. You could do this, say you’re at work and you’re feeling really stressed about an email, or you’re about to open your email and you know there’s a stressful email there, or you’re at the doctor’s office.

Said, you’re overwhelmed before you go in. Whatever the situation is. Nobody needs to know you’re doing it either. ’cause your eyes can be open if you’re driving as you’re listening to this, you can even do it, but don’t close your eyes, right?

Scott DeLuzio: don’t Close your eyes. Yes.

Ann Swanson: That’s an optional thing. The eyes close. So I’ll give you that option.

So wherever you are, I want you to, uh, if you’re looking at a screen, um, try to look away from the screen and look in the distance. Maybe you can look at a window. Maybe you can look a little further away if you’re walking or down the hall. If you’re in your home, [00:30:00] just allow your eye muscles to relax.

We’re not meant to be staring at screens so much all through the day. Let them your vision broaden and your eyes relax and notice what you see. And then as an option, you’re welcome to close your eyes if it’s safe and comfortable to do so. And notice what you hear, hearing my voice. Hearing the sounds around you, it doesn’t have to be perfectly quiet to meditate.

The sounds are part of your current experience. Hear them, accept them. Take a deep breath in through the nose. Notice any smells, notice any taste present now

and notice how you physically feel under your skin. Maybe you are compelled to sit a little taller or do a little movement. When you pay attention to [00:31:00] your body, your body’s constantly speaking to you, but you don’t always listen. So notice what it needs, and then if your eyes are closed, open ’em and see if you can bring in all five senses simultaneously.

So noticing what you see, hear, smell, taste, and feel all at once. Bringing this present moment awareness with you through the rest of our conversation.

Scott DeLuzio: Awesome. So that, I mean, that was pretty quick. You know, all, everything that you just went through there. I, I think all of that, I mean, maybe a minute

Mike Swanson: Yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: so, you know, I, I wasn’t looking exactly at the time, but it was, it was pretty quick. um, when you do something like that, I, I think we all can find, I don’t care how busy you are, you, you can find a minute or two throughout your day too. Do something like that, whether it’s at the start of the day, sometime like maybe around lunchtime, maybe at the end of the day, maybe all three or, you know, [00:32:00] other even more times, you can, you can do it, you know, as, as needed. And I, I think that’s, it’s kinda like a, a medication, you know, take as needed. Uh, it’s, it’s maybe written on the label, right?

But this is

Mike Swanson: Yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: similar thing where it’s like, take it as, as it’s needed. And, um, you know, the more you do it, the better you get at it. And the, the more you get out of it, um, But if, if you’re, you’re feeling like. I’m, I’m not stressed. I, I, I don’t have any, you know, big issues right now. I’m actually pretty relaxed.

Okay, cool. You don’t, you don’t necessarily need it right now, but there, there may come that time when that stressful email comes in from a boss or a coworker or you know, someone else and, uh, you’re like, oh my gosh,

Ann Swanson: Take a minute.

Scott DeLuzio: open that. Take a minute. It, it’s you, you don’t, it’s, it is an email.

It’s not a phone call, so you don’t have to answer right away. You know, it’s not like that can be a weird situation if you’re not responding within a minute. Um, so you’re okay. You can take a breath, you know, uh, relax and, and go [00:33:00] through that process that you just mentioned, and, and just feel all the things that are going on around you and, and then hopefully. You’ll be a little less stressed afterwards. And um, you know, and if that one in particular doesn’t work, I’m sure there’s, there’s hundreds of other types of meditations probably that, that people can, can try and, and find the one that works for them. Right.

Ann Swanson: Yeah, definitely. And I, I like how you said, it’s kind of like a medication. The meditation is like a medication, but no negative side effects. Um, but also it is access to your internal pharmacy. The natural pharmacy within your brain so we can release endorphins, those feel good chemicals, right from the word morphine.

The natural morphine that helps with our pain. Um, you’re releasing dopamine, regulating your happy hormones, serotonin. So through meditation we see real biochemical changes. Neurochemical changes, [00:34:00] and so you are accessing a a, an internal natural medication.

Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I. As you’re, as you’re talking about that, I was kind of just wondering like, how is it that we can tap into that internal pharmacy and what is it that we do, uh, to trigger some of those things? To start, you know, producing the, uh, the things that, that our body needs and how does our, how do we, or how does our body know what to tap into and, and how does that, that all work?

Ann Swanson: Yeah, so when we’re really stressed and in that go, go, go lifestyle, we’re not taking moments to pause when we’re caught up in it. We are in a cortisol high level, not just like through the day, there should be ups and downs of cortisol. It’s a stress hormone that like peaks at certain times of the day and when you’re hungry.

Um, but it shouldn’t be always up high, and that’s [00:35:00] where a lot of us are living. Same with adrenaline, another stress hormone that we are often in on this adrenaline high through the day when we take a few moments to get into the. It’s part of the nervous system that’s at rest and digest and rejuvenate the parasympathetic nervous system.

We are teaching our bodies how to go to its. What should be the natural status quo? This should be the, the, the, like, the mode that we’re in most of the time. But in the western world and in the modern day, we’re often in that go, go, go as our natural mode. So it brings us, teaches us how to go back to that natural mode where our body can rejuvenate, heal, recover.

We can think clearer when we’re in that rest and digest. State, it helps with obviously like IBS and encouraging better digestion, optimal absorption. So we can be, like you said, be our best selves. Allow your body to be its [00:36:00] best self. Um, so the. The mind and body are so intertwined that when we’re affecting this neurochemistry, it’s going to then affect our whole body.

So we’re going to be more balanced, getting those endorphins and feel good chemicals are released when we’re in that state. Um, and they counter all that stress that we, we have, um, that builds up. So, uh, yeah, the resting is really key, but also a big area of research and meditation is compassion based meditation.

So it’s not all about. Me, me, me. There’s parts of the brain and and network activity in the brain that we’re realizing is like the what Yale researchers call the me centers of the brain. They’re all egoic. And that’s part of this philosophy is getting out of just me focus. What am I gonna do? What are they thinking of me?

Um, how is this gonna affect me? Instead thinking of others. So acts of kindness, reaching out to a loved one, just telling them you [00:37:00] appreciate them. Um, telling people, my, my husband Mike here, he sends cards all the time to people just to say thank you. Sending a card or text or an email, send you appreciate somebody or, um.

Doing random acts of kindness. That connection and community is really critical for, uh, having good hormonal balance and for releasing those endorphins. And one simple meditation that has profound immediate effects to. Including helping to prevent you from getting sick, believe it or not, is simply you place a hand on the heart like you’re doing the pledge of you.

Place your hand on your heart. You can do this. If you’re listening and you notice and feel your physical heart space notice and and feel it. Take a deep breath. And imagine sending light and positive energy to somebody you care about. Somebody that needs it [00:38:00] right now, as simple as that, send them some good vibes.

I know this sounds cheesy, but I’m gonna tell you how it really works. In a moment. We have physiological evidence of this, so really take a moment, visualize them smiling and at ease. Maybe there’s something that you can do for them that comes to mind. Maybe just sending them a thank you, like we mentioned a moment ago, a text, thank you, or just sending them these goodbyes and then release your hand.

Notice how you feel. Just imagining somebody else at ease thinking, is there something I could do for them? Get off when I’m done listening to this podcast. Could I call them, could I text them? Is there’s something nice, a random acts of kindness I could help them with? That is going to release a lot of good chemicals.

But it also, it’s helping to, uh, improve your immune system so that you have more of this, uh, it’s called secretory immunoglobulin a ciga. [00:39:00] And when you have higher amounts of this, I mean, we’re talking hundreds of times. That amount is just released of the norm that was in your nasal passages. If you have more of this and you’re able to fight off diseases better, so you also just boosted your own, you know, ability to fight off diseases.

Improving your immunity by simply sending good wishes to somebody else sounds so woo woo, but it, the science is supporting it.

Scott DeLuzio: And, and it’s interesting. So I wanted to get into a little bit of, of the, the science piece of it because you, you also have the book, uh, you mentioned your, your book, uh, meditation for the Real World, but you also have science of yoga, uh, as, as another book. Um, and so there’s, there’s a lot of information, a lot of techniques, a lot of, uh, stuff in there.

Uh. Full of diagrams and, and all, all sorts of, of things that, that just show people how, uh, yeah, exactly. You’re, you’re showing it on the screen now for the listeners who, who maybe can’t see all this, but there’s, I mean, diagrams of the, the body, the muscles, the bones, the, the, [00:40:00] all the, all the things that you need to know about as far as the, the science piece of it. Um, and I, I, interesting thing for me when I, when I was going through the book, um, I, I was looking through it and I, the interesting thing about it was, um. That typically think of yoga as you know, for anyone who’s not familiar with yoga is you just think of it as a bunch of people like moving their bodies in funny ways and. I don’t know that that’s about the extent of it, that you don’t really think too much past that unless you’ve, you’ve actually participated in some of it. Um, and, but then you, you’re seeing all these things and it’s like, well, okay, yeah, sure you can move your body in in a certain way, but how does that affect, you know, one thing affect another?

It’s kinda like the, you know, the head bone connects to the, you know, whatever. You know, as, as a kid, you might’ve, might’ve said that, you know, uh, all the, all those things that connect to each other and how do they, they play together and, and how does all that work? But, um, as, as, as you’re going through the book, you, you start to realize that, um, that, that some of those movements, as silly as they [00:41:00] may seem, or, you know, maybe they have names that might seem a little silly as well, but they, they actually have some real purposes and, uh, they, they have some great benefits for, for people as well, right.

Ann Swanson: Yeah, absolutely. And it’s not just affecting your muscles and bones as people tend to think, oh, I’m just stretching. It’s all about flexibility, actually, yoga. Affects every single system of your body, your nervous system, helping you regulate emotions better and um, come down from that stress response and focus better even through the movements.

We’re improving that capacity. The immune system, as I mentioned, cardio respiratory health, which is really big for overall fitness and longevity. Improving that aspect of your health so we can look at every single system of the body that is positively influenced through the practice of yoga.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and, and it’s, it’s really great I think, um, that you, you can improve so many different pieces of your body, you know, from your mind all the way down to your, your physical, [00:42:00] your joints, the achy joints that you might have, or, you know, muscles and, and other things that might be, uh, bothering you. You can improve so many things. Uh, with it and, and just looking through that, that book, it, it was, it was pretty amazing to see all the, the different, uh, different things and how they, they connect together and how they, they, how it all works. Um, it, it, it’s pretty great. Um, before we wrap up though, uh. I want to give you a chance to let the listeners know where they can find out some in more information about your work.

I know you mentioned the website, meditation for the real world.com. Uh, is there anywhere else that, that you want people to be aware of or, you know, where they can get the books and, and things like

Ann Swanson: Yeah. Yeah. And then, um, if you’re interested in the book, science of Yoga Ed, science of, um, yoga, or excuse me, that’s my Instagram handle, so you can go to ed Science of Yoga and connect with me there, ask me any questions. But, um, www science of yoga, it’s yoga not.com. That’s where you can, um. Find out where to [00:43:00] get the book.

Of course you can get anywhere books are sold, but, you know, links to get it and that sort of thing and, and some bonuses at, um, at that website.

Scott DeLuzio: Perfect. And I will put the links to, uh, all those sites in the show notes as well for the listeners to, uh, check out and, uh, you know, use the, the resources that are available on the website. Also, get a copy of the book and, and all those things because I, I think they’re, uh, important to know what. What yoga can actually do for you and, and the benefits are go beyond just the physical, um, benefits that you might get from, uh, you know, going to a

Ann Swanson: Exercise.

Scott DeLuzio: or that exercise that,

Ann Swanson: Yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: Um, and, uh, mean, look, the two of you met together, so there’s a benefit there, um, but, but the, you know, joking aside, there’s, uh, there, there are some benefits that, that I think people need to, uh, recognize.

And it’s more than just a, you know. Some people have like a, in their mind it’s just a woo woo type thing that, [00:44:00] that, um, you know. Some people do, and that maybe it’s not for them. Well, it, it might be, it might be the thing that, that you’re missing. And, uh, one of the things I like to do on this show is to share different resources, different practices, tips, tools, tricks, whatever the the case may be. Um, because there might be that person out there who’s like. They’re at the end of their, their rope because they feel like they have tried everything. Nothing is working for them. The medication’s not working. The, the physical therapy might not be working. The different things that they’re trying just aren’t working. Why not try something else? You know, I don’t, I don’t see any downside to medication or medication. Meditation,

Ann Swanson: Yes. With no side effects, no.

Scott DeLuzio: Because, because like you said, there are no negative side effects. Um, you know, outside of maybe you spent a couple minutes of your day, uh, doing it and yeah, you’re busy and, and maybe you could have used that time doing something else.

Sure. But you go through and do the meditation and [00:45:00] do those other things with a clearer mind, with, you know, better, uh, energy and, and be able to accomplish ’em, um, you know, possibly even quicker than you would’ve done before. And that. Right there. I think even frees up some of your time. And, and I, I think there’s just a ton of benefits.

Um, really no downside as far as I can see. Um, so, you know, why, why not try this? If this, this is one of those things. I’ve tried everything, um, haven’t tried this yet, but, you know, uh, I don’t know if it’s for me. Well just give it a try and that, that’s kind of the message I’m, I was hoping to, uh, send across to the listeners.

And, um, uh, I don’t know if either of you have any kind of. Uh, kind of closing last, last words or things that you’d like to get across to the, to the listeners, but, um, you know, feel free if you, if you have anything, uh, before we wrap up here.

Mike Swanson: All I can offer, Scott, is that, um, in the military community, we value fitness, and that doesn’t just refer to your athleticism, it refers to your mental fitness. And you know, for a military that [00:46:00] talks about fitness also, we lead in pelvic floor injuries and hip flexor injuries that could be addressed specifically by yoga.

And it’s usually caused by ruck marches and being sedentary combined together. Mm-hmm. And so a lot of these things can be addressed by stuff like this specifically. And so I think having another tool in the tool chest of actual science backed ways to, um. Address these issues is valuable to anyone in the military community.

And, um, if that’s not for you, I just suggest starting with simple breathing techniques because. That can be huge Performance enhancer.

Ann Swanson: Yeah. And that’s, um, science of yoga was my first book. And this is really for the skeptics who are like, I don’t like the woowoo aspect. I wanna know what’s the science behind it?

How does this really help me practically? What do I do when I have back pain? Um, but then, you know, yoga, the practice may not be for you either, but the meditation and breath work is why I wrote [00:47:00] meditation for the Real World, because that’s really, uh, broad that. You can do it anywhere, anytime. And a lot of us are already integrating it into, uh, the shooting range and into these moments.

So how about you learn how to skillfully integrate them? So that’s why I wrote Meditation for the Real World. So like if people feel like they are bad at it or they, you know, they need that bootcamp for their focus, there’s a tool that is. Simple, practical and science-based. I worked with Dr. Sarah Lazar, she’s a Harvard neuroscientist, and I worked with her to integrate the most cutting edge research, but it’s like super simple.

So if you also like that research side, um, then that’s for you too.

Scott DeLuzio: Excellent. Excellent. Well, uh, Anne and Mike, uh, thank you so much, both of you for taking the time to come on sharing your experiences and, and the benefits that that yoga and meditation have had in your lives. And, uh, you know, hopefully this will help. Uh. You know, push some people over to, uh, you know, give it a try.

Someone who [00:48:00] might be on, on the fence about, uh, meditation or yoga or both, um, and, and how it may help them. Um, you know, this, this is just, I think, a great way to, uh, kind of get them to check it out. So thank you again.

Ann Swanson: Thank you. Thank

Mike Swanson: you, Scott.