Episode 511 Jason Anderson Fixing the Flaws in Veteran Transition Transcript
This transcript is from episode 511 with guest Jason Anderson.
Scott DeLuzio: [00:00:00] You ever step into a new job or chapter in life thinking that you’re totally ready only to find out on day one that you are completely outta your depth. You feel like an outsider. You’re up to 3:00 AM staring at the ceiling, wondering how the hell everyone else seems to be nailing it while you’re quietly drowning.
That’s exactly what today’s guest Jason Anderson experienced after a 20 year career in the Air Force. On paper, he was killing it. He had a big job, great company, global responsibilities, but inside he was crumbling. He had anxiety, sleepless nights, strained family relationships, all because he’d been told to lie that too many veterans here that you’ll transition just fine.
You’re, you’re built for this. Today’s episode is gonna be a game changer for anyone who’s struggled to feel normal after taking off the uniform. Jason breaks down the mental toll of transition in a way no one else does, and he offers a bold new fix, a modern framework that finally treats military to civilian life as a, as the massive [00:01:00] shift it truly is.
Before we dive in though, make sure you subscribe to the email newsletter at driveonpodcast.com/subscribe. You’ll find my five favorite episodes. Get straight, sent straight to your inbox, no fluff. Just the best insights to help you drive on. I also want to take a moment to raise awareness for something deeply important to our community.
The Global War on Terrorism Memorial Foundation. This organization is working to build a permanent national memorial in Washington DC to honor the service members, families, and civilians impacted by the global war on terrorism. This memorial serves as both a tribute to those who served and a way to ensure their sacrifices are recognized and remembered for generations to come.
If you wanna learn more or find out how you can support the mission, visit GWOTmemorialfoundation.org. Now, let’s get into today’s episode.
[00:02:00]
Scott DeLuzio: Jason, welcome to the show. Really glad to have you here.
Jason Anderson: Hey, great to be here with you and your audience. Thanks for having me.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, you bet. Um, so before we get into, uh, the, the heavy topics here in this episode, um, could you just tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, kind of your, uh, association with the military and kind of what got you into what you’re doing today?
Jason Anderson: Yeah. Yeah, that sounds great. So I was a 1990 grad. Um, I know we’re speaking to each other in Arizona here. So I actually finished my last three years of high school in Arizona. At McClintock High School. After that, I went to the Air Force Academy. I did uh, my time there, enjoyed it. I was an intercollegiate athlete. Really, really enjoyed the culture of the challenge that the place had, and then ended up going into the Air Force and spending a 20 year career there. my 20 year
Scott DeLuzio: Excellent.
Jason Anderson: to kind of [00:03:00] break apart into halves. My first half was as a C one 30 pilot. Flying in three wars. So five years I did three wars after getting winged.
Um, my first assignment was at, uh, Ramstein Airbase in Germany, right as Bosnia was kicking off and then moved back to Little Rock, Arkansas, which is, you know, kind of the, the mecca for C one 30 aircraft. And, uh, that was prior to nine 11. So ended up spending a lot of time in the Middle East after that. then, um, while in the Middle East, um, deployed to Pakistan of all places, um, we began to do the Iraq invasion. So,
Scott DeLuzio: Oh, okay.
Jason Anderson: you
Scott DeLuzio: You know?
Jason Anderson: to, to keep it kind of succinct and short,
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Jason Anderson: that’s a lot of war flying in five years. So I was like, holy smokes, I wanna try to find something else to do. So my last half of my career was highly internationally focused, where I was a, uh, exchange pilot to the Japanese Air Self-Defense Force. I was actually in a Japanese squadron for five years, so. I do speak Japanese. There’s a lot of [00:04:00] painful memories that are enclosed in that experience right there. And I finished my last six years at the Pentagon selling a bunch of defense hardware, equipment and training to Japan and their Air Force. So that’s kind of a summary of my career.
Scott DeLuzio: Okay. Excellent. Yeah, and definitely a lot of, uh, experience there. Um, and interesting, you were actually stationed in Pakistan, uh, during that, that time period. Um, when. It, it was a, uh, strange thing during my deployment to Afghanistan. We were right on the Pakistan border. Like our base was about two miles from the border and we frequently were at the border, like right on.
At that line, there was actually a line painted on the ground and the Pakistani soldiers on the other side. Were not very friendly to us. Uh, actually one of our guys, we were kinda just patrolling in that area. We kind of walked up and they came up right up to the line and we were kind of up towards the line.
Like we could [00:05:00] have shook hands if we were, you know, uh, you know, we were that close anyways, um, one of our guys just stepped over the line and he got a butt stuck to the face and, uh, yeah. So they were pretty protected. They did not want us crossing that line into, uh, Pakistan. So when you said that, I was actually like, oh man, that you’ve probably got some stories.
Jason Anderson: right up near um, uh, I can’t remember the name of the fire base, but right up by Coast
Scott DeLuzio: Uh, we, we were in, uh, toum.
Jason Anderson: Torque him.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. So.
Jason Anderson: the, the little jagged area, ’cause we were in Jacoba, bad Pakistan, pretty much the, the whole time. Um, at that time, no one’s supposed to know about it.
I’m sure it’s fine now, but like flying around there was very enjoyable.
Scott DeLuzio: Okay. Same time.
Jason Anderson: time I was like very happy to come home after those.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. I, I gotta imagine. Yeah, exactly. So, so you came home, uh, you know, 20 years, you got, got out of, uh, the Air Force and um, now you are I. [00:06:00] Your, uh, your business now pre-vet, uh, modern military, uh, transition. Um, let, let’s talk about pre-vet and what that’s all about. Uh, give us a little rundown of, of that whole framework.
Jason Anderson: You bet. So I want to talk and I want kind of stress to your listeners. Um, I’m very excited to talk to you because this is the first time. We’re gonna talk about mental health in a very different way, and I’ll kind of tie it back to the pre-vet story. ’cause the pre-vet story is my story, but I wanna make sure your, your viewers know.
We’re definitely focusing on the mental health piece just in a different way. So when I left, uh, retired from the military, we moved back to Wyoming, which is where my hometown is. And through a bunch of different, um, friends and a network, I ended up landing a entry level business development job with Rockwell Collins, which was a smaller. $6 billion annual revenue that’s smaller in the aerospace defense sector, but it was based in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, and I was working [00:07:00] remotely from Wyoming. It was a fantastic job, fantastic business culture, people, everything. And then within a year, I’m promoted to the head of business for Japan, Korea, Taiwan.
Um, I meet all of the leaders of the company, know all the product line, know all of the different strategies going on for my three countries. Ended up staying with that company for nine years. Um, here’s where we start talking about all the other challenges here. on paper I did great, Um, I was very successful. Um, I was making a lot of money. I loved being a part of the team. The struggle was I had no idea what I was doing in those jobs, right? So when you want to talk about stress, um, even though right, I had a job and all those different things, the stress was incredibly acute.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Jason Anderson: um, I got into those roles. I had no idea what I was doing and I was trying to figure it out on the fly I was trying to figure it out on my own because the companies [00:08:00] don’t know that the veterans like us, despite being very competent in the military, um, aren’t understanding of how the private sector is organized, how it functions.
So we struggle. All of us struggle. don’t think my experience was unique to that at all, so it was incredibly challenging for me and my family because you leave the military and you’re already stressed out about transition anyway. Right. We know there’s a lot of people, and we can talk about that in a minute, how transition might go wrong and that leads to a lot of downstream mental health, physical health. And things like that. But even for the people who were successful like me, there’s still that struggle because it is, um, trying to figure everything out on your own with no roadmap
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Jason Anderson: a recipe for non-health, put it that way. So how pre-vet got started is, um, I was shocked, right, that I was like, what the hell? Why, why are we not [00:09:00] prepared? Why am I not prepared to do this? Why is the company not taking care of me? What, like why is there this huge disconnect when I’m told leaving the military, I’ll fit right in, I’ll do great things. I’m very capable. I’m very skilled, but I get in and I’m like, what is this environment?
I don’t, I totally don’t understand this environment. And then I’m like. Oh shit, I gotta figure it out.
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Jason Anderson: I figure this out? So your brain starts teaming with activity, right? You’re like, I gotta figure it out.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Jason Anderson: like bouncing around all over the walls and stuff like that. It’s very odd behavior, but very predictable, right? So imagine the health and wellness part of that, right? So because you don’t understand what you’re getting into, you’re sleeping not well at all, right? Your relationship is stressed with your spouse, your significant other, because they’re like, what is wrong? What is wrong with you? You know, you’re like, why are you flipping out?
And when you explain to he or she, you’re like, I have no idea what I’m doing. [00:10:00] They’re like, how can you have no idea what you’re doing? I. It just, it creates this calamity kind of within the relationship architecture of the family.
Scott DeLuzio: Mm. Mm-hmm.
Jason Anderson: again, that talks to wellness and the whole point I’m trying to get back here is, and I’d like to talk about this if you don’t mind, Scott, is I wanna bring this back to transition a bit,
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Jason Anderson: So, um, what we had spoken about just prior to the show is that we need to, a couple different options here that I’m gonna pose to your audience, right? I know your audience has, but a lot of individuals that have service members themselves or they care for a service member, or maybe it’s a spouse or another that’s looking out after that service member or family member that sees them.
Scott DeLuzio: I think it’s rolling
Jason Anderson: to get a
Scott DeLuzio: the lens.
Jason Anderson: understanding why they’re struggling and then we can help them.
Scott DeLuzio: Great.
Jason Anderson: So I’m gonna tell you why they’re struggling. They’re struggling because the Transition Assistance Program was constructed in 91 and implemented, [00:11:00] it really created a really poor foundation for everything that’s been built upon it since. me prove my claim. So the analysis we’ve done basically stipulates that who made the Transition Assistance Program kind of imply to the service member. That the military they’re leaving and the private sector they’re entering, and that doesn’t just mean employment, that just means civilian.
Let’s just use civilian, Right Jason, how do you make that claim? Well, let me show you, because of what they tell us and what they still tell service members that are leaving, tell service members all the time. You’re highly skilled and capable. Companies are waiting to hire you. You’re gonna make six figures.
You’ll fit right in and do great. So if you kind of have a visual of these two different environments, what they’re saying is you can kind of peanut butter spread yourself across to that other environment as is, you’re gonna be good. [00:12:00] Boy, what a, what a lie, right? Unbelievable lie.
Scott DeLuzio: That is what,
Jason Anderson: thought,
Scott DeLuzio: yeah.
Jason Anderson: I was like, Hey, I got a job. I’m gonna fit right in. And I’m sitting here going, what the hell?
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Jason Anderson: I don’t feel comfortable here at all. Why am I, what is going on here?
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Jason Anderson: What we have to do is first acknowledge the problem. And again, I’m not here to disparage the TAP office. The people who administer tap, they are absolutely doing the best they can.
They are in a flawed program, very flawed program. what we have to do, we have two choices. Pre-vet has two choices. Actually everyone has two choices. You can try to change it from within. Nope, not happening. It’s a program or record. It is too big to fail. It’s just true
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Jason Anderson: or you create a new system, and this is what I wanna talk to your listeners about, is what we call modern military transition framework. [00:13:00] It’s a new framework. Okay. Why, why do we have to name things, Jason? Well, you gotta name ’em because we have to, in our minds, begin to separate what is and, and kind of a different model that we can do, right?
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Jason Anderson: So within our framework, here’s what we do. So, and this is really important ’cause we’re gonna tie back to the, the mental health challenges in this older model. And I want you to start seeing if you’re a service member or someone caring for a service member. The symptoms that you see out there are from that old system, we can fix it with a new framework. Alright, um, let’s first, let’s first compare the two. So from the transition assistance framework, again, it implies that the military and the private sector is similar, which is insane just on its face right there. insane. What
Scott DeLuzio: our framework.
Jason Anderson: it’s called the Modern Military Transition Framework, says the military and the private sector are vastly different. [00:14:00] Like opposed one another so you could see them and us. Right. Okay. Which one’s right. Okay. So let’s do like a quick analysis of, um, symptoms that we can talk about with mental health
Scott DeLuzio: Challenges.
Jason Anderson: emanating from the existing transition assistance program. Let’s talk about an uncomfortable topic here. Let’s talk about suicide ideation, right? Mental health challenges. There have been several studies now show suicide ideation is strongest at transition. Wonder why, right?
Scott DeLuzio: That’s interesting. Yeah.
Jason Anderson: It is. 2015. 2016 time period. They came out with a couple landmark studies that say it.
It spikes at transition now. We will tell you, if you look at it in our way, that’s a symptom of the problem with the existing system.
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Jason Anderson: let me explain the behavior a little bit. Like I told you about, if you’re being told you’re good to go and then you’re waking up at three o’clock in the morning going, man, I don’t [00:15:00] feel good to go.
I haven’t done anything. What am I supposed to do? Like everyone that leaves the military knows that that’s a physiological event, fight or flight that’s kicked off in your mind, right? Well, if you’re not taking the steps to address that, and there’s no map to go through or no map to, to kind of help yourself out or no model to kind of lean into. You’re gonna start getting really stressed out. Right?
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Jason Anderson: there’s really gonna be a certain segment of that population that that takes it as high as suicide ideation,
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Jason Anderson: It’s because they’re really full of despair and they’re like, I do not feel comfortable at all, and I’m being told I’m fine. Right?
And it’s just crazy how poorly that’s set up,
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Yeah. So.
Jason Anderson: now move that over to how we fix that. is really important. So when we talk about the modern military transition framework. We all should be telling service members while they’re serving and veterans alike, the military and the private sector are vastly [00:16:00] different environments.
Here’s what that does successfully. we tell ’em that first, it makes sense, right? So you go, Hey, guess what, Scott? In this case, Scott, you were trained intentionally in the military for your service to think and make decisions in that environment. Hey Scott. The private sector environment functions differently.
There’s a lot of reasons, but here’s three. existence. Competition and the need to make money, right? Those already kind of make these drastically different. So when I tell you that I’m appealing to an intuitive part of you that goes, yeah, it feels like there’s something different. But then it’s also logical to kind of go, Hey, if these are really different, I need to do something to fix it.
There’s training involved. There’s a way I can make this better, which gives everyone hope. gives them a target to shoot for. It gives them, um, you know, something to have a lot of faith and hope in,
Scott DeLuzio: Right
Jason Anderson: of just
Scott DeLuzio: instead.
Jason Anderson: in this old environment and try to figure it out on their own and create a model [00:17:00] we can actually fix.
This is what we believe. So that’s, that’s kind of where we’re going with this.
Scott DeLuzio: I like it. And one, one of the things that you said earlier, um, is that how the current system, the transition assistance program there. Uh, claim is that the military and civilian world is essentially the same. It’s just, you know, there’s some things that you need to know and here’s, here’s that information, blah, blah, blah.
They have the word transition in their name. That was the thing that struck me as as odd is because like if, like to me, a transition is something that changes. It’s different from what it was before. Um, you know, a caterpillar, it transitions into a butterfly, you know, so it’s, it’s different. So, um, right there, that should be a big red flag.
Hey, you’re [00:18:00] different. The, uh, the military’s different. The civilian world’s different. We probably should treat it that way. Um, uh, but then, then you’re looking at this newer approach at. Um, at, at dealing with this, and I, I think, um, you know, the original version of this TAPS program back in, I think you said what, the nineties, early nineties?
Jason Anderson: 91.
Scott DeLuzio: yeah, 91. Okay. Um. When it was first set up, it probably was. Okay. I, I would imagine like, they didn’t just start this program and it was like just this half-ass thing that just sucks and they decided to keep it for the next 30 years. Uh, you know, like I, I think it, it probably was okay at that point. But something else that you said was.
They added new layers on over the course of time and new, new things. Keep adding, adding onto this. And um, I remember when I got back from Afghanistan, it wasn’t taps necessarily, but it [00:19:00] was a, uh, ’cause I was in National Guard, so I was coming off of act, active duty. Um. They went through this whole laundry list of programs and activities and things that were available to me, and it felt like I was drinking from a fire hose.
And from what I’ve talked to other people who went through, uh, you know, the TAPS program at the end of their career, um, they, they said, yeah, it, it’s very similar. Like you just feel like you’re getting so overwhelmed with information. You don’t even know what to do with this stuff half the time. Right.
And, and some of that information you might not need today, but you might need it six months from now, a year from now, but by then you’ve forgotten it because it’s just so much information coming at you all at once. To your point, and what you are describing here, and I I think this is the way I’m understanding it anyways, is that let’s look at where you’re at right now and where you’re, you’re gonna be and [00:20:00] let’s.
Map that out and let’s get that roadmap and say, this is what, these are the steps along the way, and this is what you might need to get there. Yeah, sure. There are other programs or other services available to you should, you need them down the line, but probably don’t need them right away. And so let’s focus on those things that you do need right now and, and let’s, let’s worry about that and, and make this transition.
An actual transition, you know, so we’re actually looking at things that are, are different and, and we’re using this to convert you from that military mindset into corporate America or you know, some other civilian mindset.
Jason Anderson: Exactly. Exactly. And that is kind of the basis of our modern military transition framework.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Jason Anderson: Um, because I want to like accentuate the, the mental
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Jason Anderson: the consequences of this. I wanna go through just a few more, if that’s okay.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, please.
Jason Anderson: just to kind of talk to your audience here. So, um, when you talk about the two environments, again, I wanna focus on the existing model and why [00:21:00] there’s problems right now based on this lens of what we’re saying, right? when you talk about homelessness, homelessness or near homelessness, when you kind of do the root diagnostic cause a big causal factor that is financial instability. Can’t we equate that to not understanding the private sector and how you fit in, perhaps, right? So this becomes this disorientation, again, that’s kind of an output from this existing system, right?
Because if you’re not describing the huge differences between the two environments, you’re gonna be led to believe that you could fit right in. And then you’re gonna understand how those financial systems work and how you integrate into that employer, either as a 10 99 or a W2 as an entrepreneur. And it is totally different. So it takes you where you’re a very competent military individual that’s been very, uh, flourishing in the military environment and turns you into a very, I. Um, let, let, let’s just call it vulnerable [00:22:00] person in this new environment and for some reason they just don’t recognize that, right? In our model, we recognize that
Scott DeLuzio: Okay.
Jason Anderson: you need training to be able to understand how to financially fit into this new environment, what this environment values, which by the way, once you kind of get in it, it makes total
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Jason Anderson: way they behave is very different than they behave in the military, but they behave that way because the environment’s totally different. through our training that we do with students, and we do with veteran employers, and we do with student veterans, once they understand that and can acclimate to that environment and understand their mindset and how they fit into those environments, they do great.
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Jason Anderson: Right? Because they’re like, that’s it. told me
Scott DeLuzio: Right, right.
Jason Anderson: Once you tell them, because military people are very smart. Again, just not used to that
Scott DeLuzio: That
Jason Anderson: If you can get ’em acclimated to that environment quicker, help ’em with their mindset, help ’em understand how that environment fits or works, rather everything’s better.
And that’s the modern military [00:23:00] transition framework. So let’s bring up another one. Substance abuse. are you doing, why are you abusing substances?
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Jason Anderson: You’re just, you’re like, again, not here to psychoanalyze, I’m not a doctor. Right. But people tend to avoid something that is not something they wanna deal with.
Right? Leaving the military feeling very uncomfortable, not feeling like they can adapt to this new environment, although no one’s told ’em because they’ve told ’em they’ll fit right in and do great. And then you get to this new environment, you’re like, what the hell? Right.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Jason Anderson: There’s gonna be some people who have, you know, are, uh, predisposed to these sort of vulnerabilities. But if they could get this training to understand this new environment they’re in and how they fit into it better, I just think the whole system’s better. Right. Um, there’s a frustration on my part, let me, let me say for when we talk about either suicide ideation, homelessness, substance abuse, despair, or depression. What frustrates us about the system [00:24:00] is. older model that we talked about, that that kind of tells the service member they’re good to go and then a surprise when they’re not good to go. Right? There’s a whole cottage industry of service, uh, veteran service, um, uh, VSOs out there, other organizations who are trying to solve the problem, but they don’t understand that their fundamental predicate that they’re dealing with is flawed, so therefore their services are less than optimal.
That’s me being nice, right? Because if you don’t understand the predicate of the actual problem. Then you’re really just applying a bunch of bandaids to a huge wound,
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Right.
Jason Anderson: You’re doing very little to address the actual root cause, which is this door disorientation moving from one environment to the other. Which is why we’ve created this new framework, right? And if, if your listeners are part of an organization or part of a different kind of, A VSO or [00:25:00] something like that, that wants to do something new within a new framework and wants to start solving problems that deal with disorientation and providing services that do that. Come talk to us because together, this is how we do it, and we’re actually creating a new alliance out there.
Scott DeLuzio: Okay.
Jason Anderson: We call it the Veteran Transformation Alliance. Um, the bedrock of that is the modern Military transition Framework so that we could start together solving this huge problem that is not only a transition problem, it’s a mental health problem, it’s financial problem, it’s relationship problems,
Scott DeLuzio: But
Jason Anderson: once
Scott DeLuzio: Once.
Jason Anderson: to actually solve the problem. is the service member moving from one environment to the other. Really good things start happening and everyone wins.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Jason Anderson: the veteran wins, their family wins, their employer wins, their higher education institution wins. the society at large, the taxpayer, um, we have just this, a very good [00:26:00] opportunity to create a very powerful, empowered veteran community out there is really what we’re trying to do.
Scott DeLuzio: It is sort of like learning a new language where if. You know, you spoke, you said you spoke Japanese and I’m, I’m sure there were some awkward moments when you’re learning, uh, the language and, and speaking to some of your Japanese counterparts where maybe you didn’t quite pronounce a word right and it, it came out wrong, and maybe that meant something else that was maybe embarrassing or, or something.
So you were kind of fumbled a little bit in that stage when you’re learning that language. Maybe they said something to you and you just completely didn’t understand it at all because it was just, it was a word that meant something, but it didn’t mean anything to you. It was just sounds, it was noise. It, it didn’t.
Compute in your brain to what it was, but then eventually you learned what it was and then, oh, okay, easy. I know that this word means airplane or you know, [00:27:00] whatever the, the word is. Right. And, and so you were able to then communicate with those people and things became a hell of a lot easier, I would imagine, right?
Jason Anderson: Great comparison and yes, there’s a lot of funny stories there.
Scott DeLuzio: I’m sure.
Jason Anderson: there’s some very deep psychology in there, uh, to, especially when you got like cultures that are diametrically opposed. Speaking of which, between the US and Japan. But great comparison because again, like, um, a hundred percent accurate that when I went, or my wife and I went to Japan for, initial cultural. Movement was, uh, or movement from one culture to the other was devastating. Uh, it was the first time in my life talk about mental health. Holy cow. Um, I had been a top performer in literally everything, right? Or close to a top performer. Let’s put that way. I pushed myself a lot you’re there. I, I called it, uh, what did I call it?
Uh, it was funny, [00:28:00] um, since you brought it up. This is such a great, such a great segue, uh, for this whole discussion we’re having here. You turn into an infant again.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Jason Anderson: was a 30-year-old man, um, in Japan. Newlywed. We are in Japan. I did not know how to speak a word of Japanese. They put us in language school immersion for, uh, 15 months in downtown Tokyo. Um, when I heard something, I didn’t know what they were saying. I didn’t know how to speak. I couldn’t even think because I have no database to draw from to think.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Jason Anderson: I just sat there and I was like. guess I’m gonna cry like a baby. ’cause that’s all I got left, man. So you
Scott DeLuzio: So
Jason Anderson: how humans think and you learn how humans start changing. But it was profound, the differences environmentally that I went from one to another and how amazingly stressful that was. What a
Scott DeLuzio: you
Jason Anderson: Scott, because that’s exactly what we’re
Scott DeLuzio: we’re.
Jason Anderson: about with service members, man. Um, they’re going into a new environment and no one’s talked about this, the [00:29:00] chaos that kind of goes on with their health and wellness as they’re trying to create their own model with no map. But that’s what we’re trying to do, is the training that gives them this comfort in this new environment. And that is where the new frontier is in our view, which is why
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Jason Anderson: to talk to your audience, you know.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And when you have someone who. They graduate high school, maybe they go to college. They, they start working their career after college and they, they work for, you know, 20 plus years or whatever, however many years they end up working at this particular, uh, career. That, that they’re, they’re working.
And then you have somebody who was in the military, got out of, uh, high school, joined the military right away. Spent that same 20 years, uh, that their, maybe their high school classmates spent in, in their, working on their career, um, their, they’re advancing. Um, they were doing the same thing, but in the [00:30:00] military.
So they, at high school graduation, they were kind of at the same point as far as their cultural awareness of the world around them. One went one way and went to the military and another one went the other way and went the civilian career, corporate America, whatever, and. When you’re in high school, you’re a high school graduate, you don’t really know anything about the world or anything.
I mean, you have a high school diploma and that’s wonderful and you know, good for you. But as far as like how to interact in the world and how to be an adult in a grownup, in your finances and all this stuff, you probably don’t know a whole lot. You might think you know, but you, you’re gonna get, you’re gonna learn real quick that you.
That person had to learn along the way in their civilian world how to be an adult, how to, how to manage their finances, do their taxes, do, you know, pay their bills, their mortgage, their rent, whatever it is that they have, uh, buy groceries and all the things that you need to do as [00:31:00] a responsible adult. And you do all these things throughout your, your career.
The military guy had to do the same thing. They, they just had a different way of doing it. They had chow halls to provide them their food. They had, uh, you know, a lot of times transportation, wherever they were going, it was provided to them. So they, the things were just different. And then now the guy who’s in the military, who’s all the way off over here, and the, the other guy in the civilian world, he’s all the way off on the other side.
Now this guy’s trying to jump over and try to play catch up. And as if he had all of that same 20 years experience as the, the other guy, they didn’t. It’s different to your point. And that’s gonna start to screw with you, uh, screw with your, your head, right? Because you’re, you’re gonna be saying, look at all these guys.
They’re super successful. They’re, they’re doing all these things. They seem like they got it all together and I feel like I’m falling apart. What’s going on? And it’s exactly what you’re talking about, right?
Jason Anderson: It’s exactly what I’m talking about. So [00:32:00] your comparison is good. I would only add one, one other thing in
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Jason Anderson: So not only are they jumping your words from the military to the other environment, I. They’re bringing over all their military,
Scott DeLuzio: Oh yeah.
Jason Anderson: behaviors and all their different thinking and decision making apparatus, which by the way, are perfectly suited for the military. There will be some overlap into the private sector, right? But it’s not all one for one. So.
Scott DeLuzio: That’s right.
Jason Anderson: actually bringing in a bunch of really not helpful things with you, which makes it worse,
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Jason Anderson: So at least where the high school graduate goes into the workforce, they, they don’t know anything. So, yep, they’re gonna make mistakes, but they’re young.
Scott DeLuzio: And they’re a clean slate. Slate, right.
Jason Anderson: what’s that?
Scott DeLuzio: They’re a clean slate at that point.
Jason Anderson: fleet, military people, new clean slate,
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Jason Anderson: We have this term, if you use the two systems, again, we, we call it anchoring, right? So it is really a cognitive neuroscience based thing. So in the [00:33:00] military, you’re anchored in there with experience and a lot of time and a lot of, uh, time spent in that environment.
So when we talk about anchoring your thinking and decision making, how you literally think you’re. Your, your, um, neurological pathways, right? pathways and whatnot are anchored in this environment, and no one’s told you you need to re-anchor here in something that’s needed here.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah,
Jason Anderson: Not pull these over to that. This is gonna have massive kind of chaotic problems potentially, right?
Scott DeLuzio: sure.
Jason Anderson: ‘ em. I know it’s true. I’ll bring ’em over. And even if I am the most. know, I, I do a lot of reflection and kind of understand it’s not enough. You need to understand what that, that environment values, you need to understand how it works, how it functions, how it’s organized. And once you start kind of anchoring in those concepts and you feel comfortable in there, you’re still gonna have identity in the military. That’s hugely important. I [00:34:00] loved my service, I loved it. I remember my friends and everything like that, but
Scott DeLuzio: But I don’t.
Jason Anderson: that over into the private sector. I leave ’em as memories and it’s phenomenal.
And. You know, good work ethics show up on time. Absolutely right.
Scott DeLuzio: Yep.
Jason Anderson: things that you’re gonna carry over with you that are useful in this environment. There’s gonna be some things that aren’t useful that you need to kind of drop off
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Jason Anderson: okay with that. And then there’s gonna be some new competencies you gotta develop in this new environment because it’s really important to
Scott DeLuzio: To do with the
Jason Anderson: needs because it’s a different environment and values totally different things. we don’t want you railing against that. We want you to understand why they’re doing that, because it’s a new environment. You need that analysis, and once you get
Scott DeLuzio: get that.
Jason Anderson: man, the, it just becomes unstoppable. Everybody’s so much happier and healthier. They know where they fit in. They’ve got a purpose.
They’re developing a new they private sector identity, which then carries ’em forward for the next 30, 40 years while they’re still living. They become a great recruiter for the military because the, the military did set ’em up for success in [00:35:00] the private sector. I mean, it just makes the whole system better is what we’re trying to really get to from a, like a very ambitious standpoint.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, e exactly. When you were talking earlier about, uh, when I brought up the language example, uh, of, you know, learning Japanese, um, you, you mentioned something that I didn’t, I didn’t include in my, uh, comparison, but it’s not just the language to say, you know, this pen is black and you. You know, learn how to say things that are matter of fact or, or whatever.
There’s cultural things that. Are included in that, that education that you had to go through it, it’s not just learning a language, it’s learning the culture. It’s learning how people interact with each other. You know, here, if, if you and I were to meet in person, you know, I’d, I’d, you know, looking in the eye and give you a, a nice stiff firm handshake where in Japan that might not be the, [00:36:00] the, the way that you, you would go about doing it.
You know, they may, they may understand that that’s the way Americans do it and they may be polite and, and that’s okay, but that’s not. Necessarily the way that a Japanese, uh, set of Japanese people would interact with each other. And so, you know, that’s. Just something that you, something else that you have to learn.
So it’s more than just a language, um, you know, learning the corporate acronyms and, and the different things that you need to know about that. Yeah, sure. That’s, that’s one thing. But that’s, that’s pretty simple. You can, you can figure that out pretty quickly. Um, but it’s, you know, how do you interact? You know, you’re not, you’re not gonna be, you know, screaming at your subordinates and, you know, having ’em do pushups and, you know, all that kind of stuff though, in a, in a military mindset, you might, you might have that opportunity and it may be an, an appropriate thing to do, um, but in, you know, in your cubicles, you’re probably not gonna want have people doing that.
Right?
Jason Anderson: No. So like I, I want to tell you, ’cause we, ’cause we’ve done this, this program has been in development 10 years,
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Jason Anderson: or delivered [00:37:00] rather for five years. I’ll tell you what the most pernicious part is. Um, so when we talked about the anchoring in the military, I. There’s, there’s a phenomenon out there called a heuristic, A heuristic is a neural pathway that’s so well traveled in someone’s mind
Scott DeLuzio: Yes.
Jason Anderson: it bypasses the normal thinking process and
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Jason Anderson: pops into your mind. So imagine this, it’s it. Once I say it, be like, Ooh, you, you’ll cringe just a little bit. But those, those military heuristics that we’ve developed over five years, 10 years, 20, years, right?
Potentially. You’re gonna hit the private sector environment and untrained, you will think those things. You will, it’s a neurological certainty, right? It’ll pop into your mind just like it would on a normal given day. So you’re gonna make. Really broad based judgments about your private sector peers without knowing anything about
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Jason Anderson: This is why this is such a critical part of [00:38:00] integrating back into
Scott DeLuzio: society.
Jason Anderson: gotta be everywhere,
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. The
Jason Anderson: We’re the first
Scott DeLuzio: first one, do it.
Jason Anderson: That’s why I’m here
Scott DeLuzio: Talking to
Jason Anderson: audience, right? About the mental health component.
Scott DeLuzio: Yes.
Jason Anderson: But there’s an employment component, there’s a productivity component, there’s a wellness and everything else component, but you could see it now and
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Jason Anderson: you kind of. Start seeing the differences. You can see how we can get this entire community in such a better state than it is right now. You know what I mean?
Scott DeLuzio: Absolutely. And as you were talking there, it, it reminded me of, uh, some conversations I’ve had in the past with, you know, therapists and, and things like that, where sometimes you have these. Thoughts that are just so in, ingrained in, in you that they’re, and I’m, I’m probably not using the right words ’cause I’m not, I’m not a therapist, I’m not a, a psychologist or anything like that, so, you know, but I’m just, I’m just gonna use layman’s terms here.
But these thoughts are just so ingrained [00:39:00] in your head that they may or may not be helpful. Uh, but in some cases they’re de definitely not helpful. They may even be detrimental to whatever it is that you are, um, participating in. It may be, you know, in a, uh, mental health. Uh, aspect. It may just be negative self-talk.
You might be telling yourself that you’re, you’re stupid or you’re not worth it, or you’re, you know, all these kind of things you might be telling yourself. And that’s becomes ingrained if you do it enough that it, that’s just your knee jerk reaction. It’s like, oh, well I’m just not good enough. That’s why I, you know, whatever.
Um, and so the way it was, it was described to me was that all your life, you’ve been told that the sky was blue. Well, now I’m telling you, you have to. Tell yourself that it’s green and you have to try to convince yourself of it. And, and that’s the, and I’m not telling anyone that they have to convince theirselves that the sky is green.
And if it is, it’s probably a chemical leak and you probably [00:40:00] have a problem and get away from that area. But, um, but it’s, it’s that kind of mental gymnastics that needs to take place where you have a, uh, this thought that, or this, um. Thing that’s going on in your mind, whatever it is, and you have to train yourself out of that way of thinking that that thought process, and I think that’s kinda what you’re describing, right?
Jason Anderson: That’s what we’re describing. We have those exact tools in our training,
Scott DeLuzio: Great.
Jason Anderson: right? Because I cannot get a service, I can’t get any adult, I can’t get any adult to change the way they
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Jason Anderson: I can explain to them why scientifically they are thinking a certain way, meaning why thoughts are popping into their head, and then based on that, they typically of their own volition. to start changing the way they think,
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah,
Jason Anderson: we can do that very quick now with our training. And those are proprietary [00:41:00] models that we created. Lots of funny stories about how those, how that came about. But, um, we have
Scott DeLuzio: proprietary.
Jason Anderson: that gets them to very deeply examine their thinking, why it’s taking place.
And then they elect. To go, Hmm, maybe I need to change the way I think. And once that opening is there, honestly it’s kind of off to the races. They’re, they just do great, they’re like very open to change and, and can kind of see where they fit in, where the goodness is gonna come from. Hope returns, lots of hope,
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Jason Anderson: know, and then just wellness, just kind of follow suit.
And that’s, I mean,
Scott DeLuzio: That’s what we’re looking for. Yeah, for sure. And, and I think that’s, you know, why we’re here having this conversation is because there are plenty of people who transition out of the military. They, they think they got it all set. Maybe they even have a, you know, a career lined up. They know where they wanna live.
They, they think they got all these things good to go, but then they start getting into it and they start feeling like you were describing. They’re feeling [00:42:00] anxious and stressed because they don’t know what they’re doing at work. Um, they, they, um, or if even if they had the same job in the military, the civilian world does things different a lot of times.
And so it, you might just be struggling to catch up with like, why are they doing it this way instead of the old way that I, I did all this this time and it, everything was fine back then. Um, and, and then you’re up at three in the morning. Wondering why you can’t fall back asleep. Well, there, there’s all these issues that, that come along with it.
And so that’s, I mean, that’s why we’re here. That’s what we’re trying to discuss and trying to, um, you know, get people on the right path so that they understand that yeah, there are some differences. Um, you know, you went over to Japan. Gotta imagine you knew right off the bat that there were some differences between the United States and Japan.
That there’s language, there’s culture, there’s, you know, all these things that were different. And so it wasn’t a surprise to you when you got there. Yeah, [00:43:00] sure. It was probably difficult to. Learn all of those things and play catch up with all of that. But you knew what was ahead of you. You had kind of a roadmap, okay, if I wanna communicate with these people, I need to learn their language.
If I want to, um, you know, fit in and not kind of be an outcast, I gotta learn their culture. If I want to do all these things, I have to learn whatever it is. And there’s that roadmap that, that we are talking about, right.
Jason Anderson: Y Yes. That is a perfect, perfect way to say it. And once we start as a veteran community in unison, start telling service members very clearly. You are very capable in the military. You need trained, you need to be trained. To be optimized quicker for the private
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Jason Anderson: a minimum, right. Um, it’s gonna just create vastly better outcomes for everybody else, you know?
And new, even though we’re five years old, we’re still new, but the [00:44:00] message needs to propagate because. The people in your audience, they care about the service members. We care about the service members, and we know that service members want to excel. They
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, that’s right.
Jason Anderson: give ’em the tools to kind of go, okay, that makes sense.
And then the training to kind of go, wow, you know, once I feel more comfortable here, I, I just feel empowered and I can do these things. And then a lot of the symptoms of the old system go away. I just. It’s gotta be the way we go, man. And that’s, that’s what we’re gonna be pushing hard for, you know, this year and beyond with pre-vet.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, so pre-vet I think is a great way to think of it too, because this needs to be something that. Hits those folks before they make that jump, before it becomes a problem, and they’re. In the deep end and realizing, gee, I never learned how to swim in the first place. You know? Um, so when, [00:45:00] when you’re still in the military in that, that time period, uh, before getting out, you know, you know, it’s on your radar.
You’re getting out at some point. But, um, that’s, that’s when you wanna start figuring that out. Now in your. Experience. In your opinion, what’s the optimal time period for folks to start looking into this, uh, and, and looking into this transition, uh, you know, uh, program Yeah. Challenge that they’re, they’re about to face and, and try to, uh, get up to speed before, before getting out.
Jason Anderson: we agree with you. So here’s how we kind of couch what we do. So ideally we wanna get service members before they get out. That’s, that is the ideal. But we also understand that even though you’re out, you’re still struggling. And it’s helpful if you get a context within the employment environment, higher ed environment, or elsewhere.
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Jason Anderson: To just go, oh, I, I, I just feel more comfortable. So that continuum of training that we talk about is, is real. So to talk about the pres separation [00:46:00] training, like the, while you’re still in the military, ideally 18 months to three years before you get out. And the reason why we do that, um, we have a program out there.
And, and by the way, this is gonna be free for your audience, right? We are happy to do scholarships for your audience. Just tell them to contact me, I’m sure I’ll be in the show notes
Scott DeLuzio: Yep.
Jason Anderson: ’em into the next cohort.
Scott DeLuzio: Great.
Jason Anderson: um. Our virtual it, it is a five week virtual course. What’s great about it is, um, the time commitment is minimal, actually.
Um, it’s only like 60 to 90 minutes per week because we know exactly what you’re deficient in. We know exactly what tools you need, and then we have you start using these tools. So it’s not like this big philosophical, fluffy thing. It’s very pragmatic and very specific. the five week course, we do three cohorts a year, spring, summer, fall. Um, our next cohort will, after this airs, will be in the fall, um, sometime in October or late September. Um, and then, like I said, you could reach out to me to ask about it. [00:47:00] Once you do that, though, in that five weeks you get the new, um, a new understanding, the private sector, a new understanding of your mindset and how you can fit in, plus tool tools to go explore industries and companies in the area you wanna live.
Right? This reduces risk hugely.
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Jason Anderson: outcomes. Right?
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Jason Anderson: you go into our community after that. So it’s a virtual community of mentors where we do a bunch of additional training, VA claim, financial readiness, health and wellness insurance, all of it. Full, full boat stuff here. Um, it’s just a full system approach. And the outcomes are so good that people just come back and elect to be mentors, right? So it’s this new vibrant system of, of people doing really well. And again. It’s just there’s not enough people going through the system right now.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah,
Jason Anderson: There’s
Scott DeLuzio: sure.
Jason Anderson: People don’t know about our program. So we’re still in, um, the phase where we’re early to this, but we’re getting out the word as much as we can.
Scott DeLuzio: Got it. Okay. [00:48:00] Yeah, so I, I think this is something that I can envision you guys, and I think you mentioned this earlier, working with other organizations that have huge veteran bases, um, you know, other VSOs. Organizations like that, uh, or even becoming a VSO, you know, accredited through the VA and, and all that yourself.
And, uh, you know, doing all of that, that type of work in conjunction with those other organizations. Uh, and there’s other programs that we’ve had, uh, highlighted on this show where, um, there are. Plenty of organizations out there, many organizations running the same program. Um, but they, they all kind of are working off the same sheet of music.
And so it doesn’t matter if you’re going to this company or that company, they all have that the same, uh, playbook that they’re working off of. And, you know, I, I think that’s something that would really be special because then it, it’s hitting. [00:49:00] Much, much wider audience because those, those people are already entrenched in that veteran world in different areas and, and that that could really be beneficial, I would think.
Jason Anderson: It would be beneficial. However, a little, unfortunately they live in that older system.
Scott DeLuzio: Oh, yeah.
Jason Anderson: when we use the language we do, which we think is direct on purpose, ’cause it has to
Scott DeLuzio: Out
Jason Anderson: the noise out there, um, to change how they
Scott DeLuzio: talk.
Jason Anderson: to their veterans,
Scott DeLuzio: it. Yeah. So right now,
Jason Anderson: in this stage, it, we don’t believe it’s in conflict.
They will think it’s in conflict. Um, do you see what I mean?
Scott DeLuzio: yeah. Yeah.
Jason Anderson: happy to be complimentary, but like they’ve, we’ve, we speak to a lot of these organizations and they kind of double down on what they’re doing. Um, and that’s fine, which is why we kind of need this new system, this new framework, and then start inviting people into our framework
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Jason Anderson: It’s different. It works. Um, and it just makes [00:50:00] everything so much better. So again, we’re in early exciting stages and we like having these opportunities to talk to your audience about that.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, for sure. And, and I think, you know, from going back to the, the mental health aspect, because I, I think this is really the, the core of what we’re trying to discuss here is that if you look at, I. The veteran population, and I don’t have the statistics of the numbers in front of me right now, but I know for a fact that this is true, that there are more, like per capita, there’s more veteran suicides than there are civilian suicides per capita.
Right. And, and so, um, we’re obviously not doing something right. We, we’ve screwed up somewhere along, along the line and yes, I understand that veterans tend to be exposed more to traumatic. Experiences and, you know, maybe they have traumatic brain injuries or they’ve lost, you know, limbs or they are deployed frequently and maybe that has [00:51:00] caused stress in their relationships and they’ve maybe gotten divorces and, and things like that.
And that can happen more frequently just because of all of those, uh, situations that, that we tend to find ourselves in. However. There are people in the civilian world who have to travel for work. There are people in the civilian world who get in car accidents and have traumatic brain injuries, and they are not out there killing themselves at record numbers either.
And so there’s something that we are not quite getting right and um, I, I don’t think that it’s. I, I can’t say this as, as an absolute, but this is my personal opinion. I don’t think it’s ever a, um, any one big experience that causes someone to go to that, that. Point where they end up taking their lives. I think it’s a cu accumulation of many different experiences.
Maybe there’s [00:52:00] a traumatic, uh, incident in a combat situation, and maybe you also had a traumatic brain injury, and then maybe also your, your wife left you, or, you know, all these things add up and then someone finds themself like feeling hopeless. Um. If we can take away that transition piece and make that easier from a mental health perspective and make it so that we are not, uh, just throwing someone in the deep end of the pool of life, I guess, if you want to call it that.
Right. Um. I don’t know. That’s, that’s gotta at least set them up for a little bit of an, uh, I don’t wanna say easier time because, you know, life’s not easy. It’s not supposed to be easy, but it sets ’em up for success anyways. It sets them up for not having to scramble just to figure out the [00:53:00] very basics of this new world that they’re finding themselves in.
It allows them to. Hit the ground running. Really?
Jason Anderson: I didn’t wanna stop you ’cause I’m like, we are super aligned on that. It, it shouldn’t be hard. This should be like an easy put,
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Jason Anderson: it’s just we have to shift the market a bit,
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Jason Anderson: Like it may, it’s so commonsensical what needs to be done. And that’s the appeal we’re making
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Jason Anderson: we can do it. So like I’m just, I, I really appreciate you taking the time to kind of listen. I want to come back down the road so we can do updates on this. That would be fantastic. I.
Scott DeLuzio: That would be fantastic. And I think there, there’s going to be, uh, as, as anything. Uh, anything worth doing is worth doing, right? And so as, as you’re, uh, you know, still, still in the young phases, I’m sure there are things that will change and evolve through the way you guys operate. And so I’d, I’d love to [00:54:00] hear the new revelations that come up through, you know, what it is that you’ve discovered through, you know, just your experience and, um, that, that I think is, is just gonna be a, a great thing.
And I, I, uh, certainly welcome you back. Uh, you know, anytime that there’s. You know, any, any type of updates or any, any type of situation where we can, um, help inform the listeners a little bit more about, you know, how to make this transition, uh, something, um, so something on the, the easier side. So, so it’s not a, a constant, constant struggle.
So, uh, Jason, I, I do appreciate you coming on the show and, um, before we wrap up, uh, where can people go to find out more about what you guys do and uh, and all that kinda stuff?
Jason Anderson: So, um, pre-vet dot com is the name of the website, but again, um, if you have folks in your listening audience or spouses or whatever that would like to have their service members go through our program, we have scholarships available, tell ’em to [00:55:00] reach me. Um, my email is [email protected], but, um, if you have that stuff in the show notes.
Scott DeLuzio: Yep.
Jason Anderson: We, we’d be happy to talk with them. It’s really easy. Just do a quick 15 minute call, get some information and then, um, their service member is off to the races. Really easy.
Scott DeLuzio: Excellent. And yes, the, I’ll definitely put the link in the show notes, uh, for the listeners and, um. Jason, it’s been a absolute pleasure, uh, speaking with you. Uh, thank you so much for coming on, and thank you for all the work that you guys are doing. Appreciate it.
Jason Anderson: Thank you as well. See you next time.
Scott DeLuzio: All right.