Episode 520 Barbara Thompson PTSD is Wrecking You. Fix it Now. Transcript
This transcript is from episode 520 with guest Barbara Thompson.
Scott DeLuzio: [00:00:00] Do you ever feel like you’re stuck in fight or flight mode, even when you’re just trying to make it through the workday or sit through your kid’s soccer game? That edge? The hyper awareness it’s useful in a firefight, but it’s exhausting when you’re at home.
Now, picture what life would be like if you had tools to handle the chaos. That’s what this episode offers. Barb Thompson is an army veteran and operational psychologist who spent her career helping elite units and everyday warriors master their mindset.
We talk about performance under pressure, rewiring the brain after trauma and building mental resilience before life goes off the rails. Whether you’re facing tough transitions or trying to be more present with your family, this conversation’s packed. With strategies that can shift the way you deal with stress for good.
I also wanna take a moment to raise awareness for something deeply important to our community, the Global War on Terrorism Memorial Foundation.
This organization is working to build a permanent national memorial in Washington DC to honor the service members, [00:01:00] families, and civilians impacted by the global war on terrorism. This memorial serves as both a tribute to those who served and a way to ensure their sacrifices are recognized and remembered for generations to come.
If you want to learn more about the memorial or find out how you can support the mission, visit GWOTmemorialfoundation.org. Now, let’s get into today’s episode.
Scott DeLuzio: Hey Barb, welcome to the show. I’m really glad to have you here.
Barb Thompson: Thank you so much for having me.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely.
I wanna talk a little bit about your, your background and kind of your experiences. You are an Army veteran, turned into psychologist, you have a lot of pieces that are really important to our audience, so I kinda want to get to know a little bit about who you are [00:02:00] and, and a little bit about your background First, if you don’t mind just kinda sharing just a, a quick overview of, of you and your background.
Barb Thompson: Sure,
I’ll do the nutshell
version and
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Barb Thompson: it any way you want.
Scott DeLuzio: Excellent.
Barb Thompson: So I was born and raised in Stillwater, Oklahoma. Got an undergraduate degree in English literature. I’m not really sure what I was going to do with it. I just enjoyed studying, you know, like why people thought and felt the way that they did.
And now that I’m a
psychologist, you can kind of
see how that led in that
Scott DeLuzio: Sure. Yeah.
Barb Thompson: And then I ended up. Doing graduate work in psychology, still didn’t really know exactly what I wanted to do. Had a great mentor in graduate school that was like, where are you gonna go next? Where are you gonna get your doctorate?
I had never thought of such things ever. I mean, I really was in a place I had never thought I would be in any way in the first place. So, but I felt like I knew just enough to be dangerous and I really loved learning. So I kept going and got into a, a doctorate program and at [00:03:00] the end of that program. Is when I learned about psychology within the military and obviously threw my hat in the ring and it, it changed my life forever. So I got to live in all different places and learn a lot of different things and it’s been a really rewarding and meaningful
experience.
Scott DeLuzio: Well, and I, I think people like yourself who, you know, get into the military especially with a psychology background, that is something super important in the military because. I don’t know what it is, but we are not doing all that great as far as our, our mental health condition. Maybe we’re just too thick headed and we, we don’t want to get the help.
I don’t know what it is, but we need, we need more people like you who are able to, I don’t know, crack through whatever it is that’s blocking us from either getting the help, admitting that we need the help. I don’t know, whatever it is. [00:04:00] But to have just someone to be there to be able to. Help with whatever these issues are that we, we might be experiencing.
You know, we’re, we’re just, we’re losing too many people you know, quite frankly. And it’s, it’s something that I, I feel very strongly about and I want, I want that 22 a day, a num number, if that’s even inaccurate number, I don’t even know anymore. I want that down to zero, you know? And, and so, you know, people like you who can,
you know.
Be close with the people who are serving and kind of nip it in the bud before it, you know, gets out of outta control. That’s, I, I think, super important and, and part of the reason why I wanted to have you on the show, ’cause I, you know, looked a little bit into your background and, and stuff, and I, I thought, I thought this was super interesting.
You know, someone who I wish I. Had no new during my time serving because it would’ve maybe saved a lot of issues down the line had I had someone you know, like yourself or, you know, people like that to be able to help out you know, along the way. But you know, so [00:05:00] you said you got to live in a lot of different places.
Kind of overview, like where were you stationed? What, what kind of places did you get to experience?
Barb Thompson: Yes. My first duty station was at Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio. And did a little bit of training there. That was my like pre-doctoral internship.
So basically your year of practice
Scott DeLuzio: Okay.
Barb Thompson: your graduation, you’re completing your dissertation and all that kind of good stuff. Really busy year. And then I was introduced to operational psychology and at the time the Army had a postdoc residency at Fort Bragg in North Carolina.
And it was a whole nother side of
psychology that I didn’t know about
and just. Like lit me on fire and I said, I okay. It was, it’s funny, you know, like, kind of walking into a room and then an hour later you
have this whole new direction. Obviously it’s
Scott DeLuzio: That’s awesome.
Barb Thompson: but yeah, it was really cool.
And so I went through that assessment selection process and then went to Fort Bragg and [00:06:00] started kind of like on the job training for operational psychology, which took me outside of, you know, a traditional clinic and into some really exciting areas. Or I could still be close, you know, to the service member, but just, you know,
consult in a, in a different way.
Scott DeLuzio: So, you mentioned operational psychology as kind of a, a new direction, not entirely new, but it, you know, a branch off of the direction that you were going. Perhaps how is operational psychology different than traditional I don’t wanna call it vanilla psychology, but you know, the, your general traditional psychology.
You know, what, what is the difference there that, that you experience?
Barb Thompson: is a fantastic question. So for the most part, we’re trained clinically, we’re trained in the same way. So our schooling will look very similar. But it comes to down to practice. So a clinical psychologist will. Is the expert on, you know, a patient comes in or a person comes in, they do an intake or a debrief, or, you know, whatever you wanna call [00:07:00] it, get to know that person make their diagnoses, and then create a treatment plan based on those diagnoses. that person get well. Right. And operational psychologist is still clinically trained, so everything a clinical psychologist knows about human behavior and assessment and things like that is similar. It’s just that we utilize that information a little bit differently. And so, some of the areas that are most common to see operational psychologists working in are the assessment and selection of personnel for, you know, high risk, high performing teams.
So you’ll see that in the military, you know, our, our soft. Special Operations forces units we’re we consult to leadership on organizational development, training, performance enhancement crisis negotiations, consult to aviation. So using, again, that knowledge of human behavior and human factors but in a way that hopefully
helps. rather
than on an individual level. Another area we, we consult [00:08:00] to, you know, intelligence operations or counterintelligence operations through a number of different ways and you know, consultation to military interrogations or indirect assessment. And, and then another way I think. People generally see us as out at seer school, you know, kind of seer psychology, that study of, of human behavior when you’re isolated or, you know, detained. And and then the flip side, the knowledge of what to do with a person upon, you know, hopefully a successful
know, repatriation. So those
are
Scott DeLuzio: Okay.
Barb Thompson: the areas that outside of the clinic operational psychologists consult with. Military, upper military units, and there are operational psychologists in other organizations that work
in similar
Scott DeLuzio: All that makes a ton of sense because you look at someone who is going into you know, special forces or you know, any of those high risk positions, you always think of [00:09:00] them as being certainly physically fit. But man, you gotta be mentally fit in order to handle those jobs too, right?
Barb Thompson: yes,
Scott DeLuzio: Big time.
And, and so just like you would have a screening process for physical conditions, you wanna make sure that these people are top notch physically. Yeah. Why wouldn’t you want to make sure that they’re top-notch mentally as well? Because God, God forbid they. Crack under pressure or you know, any of the things that could happen to someone operating in such a high stress environment.
You don’t want to be finding that stuff out. In the middle of a firefight or, you know, in, in some other must be completed kind of mission. You don’t want that, that to be you know, found out at that point that’s a little too late in the process. Yeah, sure. The person may be a stud as far as their, their PT and their, their physical appearance goes not just appearance, but their physical abilities goes, but if they can’t handle it mentally, that that’s gonna be a problem.
So, so we’re talking [00:10:00] about a lot of things, you know, mentally Oba, obviously, you know, talking about psychology. And you’re a big believer in the power of mindset and you’ve worked with a lot of. High performing individuals how does someone manage to maintain that strong positive mindset, especially in those high pressure situations?
You know, we see that a lot in, you know, tho those kind of higher tier operator levels, special forces. But how do, how do they maintain that kind of mindset going through those types of things?
Barb Thompson: Yeah, I think there’s a hundred things I could say about this, so I’ll, I’ll try to break it up into
a few sections, but,
Scott DeLuzio: Maybe 80, 20, you know like a
Barb Thompson: know, right? So it really depends. It depends, right? There are some things in performance psychology that you could teach, you know, kind of, to most individuals, and I think that might be most
beneficial for this conversation.
Scott DeLuzio: [00:11:00] Sure.
Barb Thompson: but to maintain a strong mindset, I wouldn’t. Even
necessarily say positive, because sometimes
Scott DeLuzio: Okay.
Yeah, that’s true.
Barb Thompson: you know, whether it’s positive or not, what you really want out of it is the progression, right, to keep going, to keep moving forward you know, to stay strong in the, in the midst of kind of failure or chaos or uncertainty. So the human. Brain is really made for survival and it likes to make up rules. It likes to make up routines so that decisions are easy,
but when you add stress,
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Barb Thompson: you can see
that that becomes more and more difficult.
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Barb Thompson: and so part of maintaining that strong mindset is breaking it up into pieces a little bit, right. so, and there’s lots of different cool stories, survival stories, right? About whether it’s POWs, you know, that we’ve studied from, you know, the [00:12:00] Holocaust era, or whether it’s people who’ve been, you know, doing these fantastic, you know, alpine climbs and gotten stuck somewhere. Like there’s lots of research with humans who have had to endure a lot. More than maybe you and I kind of in our day-to-day lives. And you can
obviously take that to the battlefield as well.
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Barb Thompson: few of the things that we’ve learned from those people is that distancing yourself from the situation can help a little bit. One fantastic way to distance yourself is to keep in mind the hero’s journey.
Now, this is a. A theory by Joseph Campbell. You see it in every kind of like Marvel movie ever made, right? It’s like the same storyline, but it works. Like we’re hooked and we’re hooked because that’s, we experience that as humans. It’s this constant phasic. to life. And so there’s this hero, and that would be you or that the listener, if [00:13:00] you’re listening, you’re the hero in your own story, right?
And you have this sense of calling to something greater. You kind of step out into that. You experience trials and tribulations along the way. You eventually get to this deep, dark place where no one ever wants to go, right? And then. along the way you’re giving, you’re given tools or mentorship to kind of get you through those deepest, darkest places, and you come out on the other side. Having grown having been an enlightened, know, you know, because you’ve, you’ve experienced these really deep, dark places,
right?
Scott DeLuzio: Yes.
Barb Thompson: it’s constant, right? So if you can picture yourself on that loop, then it helps distance you from. The current situation, the moment you’re in. And then you also know simultaneously that it is phasic, that it doesn’t last forever, right?
The deep, dark place, the belly of the beast. Like you can come out of it and you will, because you’ve done it in the past, and you’ll face other beasts in the [00:14:00] future. So distancing is one thing that I like to teach. I think it’s fantastic for any difficult place. You find yourself in, especially the ones that you don’t choose, like a lot of people join the service ’cause they wanna do hard things, right?
They want that challenge. That’s a challenge they choose. But many times what ends up happening, either when you’re in the service or when you transition out, is you’re faced with, you know, difficulties in life that you don’t. Want. And for some reason we have a totally different attitude towards these difficulties.
And we throw our hands in the air and we throw a temper tantrum and whiny and all this kind of stuff. You know, we turn into toddlers
when we chose really hard things. Like
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Barb Thompson: things. It’s just that we wanted those
hard things and we don’t want those hard things.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Barb Thompson: you know, in life we don’t get to choose.
So I like distancing. I like using the hero’s journey as an example for that, and just being able to picture yourself. Okay. It’s fine, like I’m in a trial and tribulation, but I know from the hero’s journey is like I can reach out to [00:15:00] other people, I can do my research, right? I can stay connected and
eventually the phase will change
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Barb Thompson: come out stronger for it and I’ll be able to share that experience back with the
normal world.
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Barb Thompson: Skill I like to teach is just small goals and small victories. for example, if you are. Whatever your metaphor is for running a marathon, I’ll use marathon as a metaphor for life, but let’s say that you’re in a a pretty chronic situation, then what you wanna focus on is not the entire situation, but I’m gonna focus
on making it to the next mile marker.
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Barb Thompson: And that’s all I’m gonna think about. One foot in front of the other, making it to the next mile marker. And then you make it and you’re like, yes, I made it to the next mile marker. And that little bit of dopamine is just enough fuel to kind of get you to the next goal, which is probably the
next [00:16:00] half mile or the next mile marker.
Scott DeLuzio: Okay,
Barb Thompson: really being able to. Again you do a little bit of math when you’re not feeling like you’re in the best place. Make small goals and, and celebrate small, small victories,
Scott DeLuzio: So, so basically not eating the whole elephant in in one go. Right. The one bite at a time. Right.
Barb Thompson: Yes, it’s things, it’s simple skills that we’ve learned, but when the brain is under stress, it tends to be and think a bit emotionally.
And so we lose the logic, right?
We
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Barb Thompson: the, how do you eat an elephant want bite at a time and then it doesn’t make sense to us and we don’t know how to apply it to this situation. And that is when you can just reach out to someone else. Hey. Like, I’m trying to keep a strong mindset. What does this
look like to you?
Because they already have that distance
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Barb Thompson: right? They already have that perspective. Sense of humor is to a, a way that we know that people, people are able to gain perspective through kind of looking at this and say like, oh my gosh, like. [00:17:00] A couple years ago, I never would’ve imagined myself in this place, or a couple years from now, I’m gonna look back and think that this is pretty
funny, even though it is so miserable
right
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Barb Thompson: those are a few skills that you can use when you are kind of in the midst of trouble, but work on
those you know if you can
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Barb Thompson: hit a bad spot. The way you work on those is using the challenges that naturally come to you daily in a normal life. Applying them there right as practice so that when the really hard things come along you, you’re like, okay, I know what to do.
It’s gonna look different. It’s gonna feel different.
But I do have some tools here in, in my tool bag. But the greatest skill, it takes some work to that. I’ve seen work in both, you know, assessment, selection, and then people are down range or, or even when, you know, let’s say like child or their wife is diagnosed with cancer, like anything just unimaginable is [00:18:00] doing the work ahead of time to know why you
do the things that you do,
Scott DeLuzio: Okay.
Barb Thompson: end of the day when you number your days and you say, my life is short, I. does it really stand for then? That is the fuel that keeps
people going during really hard times.
Scott DeLuzio: Okay.
Barb Thompson: you can, again, think through that and think at least three layers deep you know, why, why am I doing this?
Like I. For assessment selection, we might ask that at the very beginning. And we do it to help them through the process so that they have something to grab onto when things get really bad. and time and time again we say like, how did you get through that moment? It wasn’t going well, you know, it was kind of on the fence whether all this effort was gonna pay off.
And they’re like, oh, I remembered why I was doing it. And not just that surface level y, but like, okay, and why is that important to you and why is that
important to you? So try to go like three layers deep,
but.
Scott DeLuzio: Okay.
Barb Thompson: I could talk on that forever, but that those are a few
strategies.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, I, I like those strategies and they, they all make [00:19:00] sense now. One, I I, I was jotting down some questions as you were talking ’cause it, it was all good stuff. But one question I had is with the first thing that you were talking about, distancing. I am completely familiar with that. I know exactly what that looks like and have used that myself.
But. Per perhaps, or now maybe I’m thinking of something different. So for in my experience it was kind of like I had to like put that aside, put that what that negative thing was aside so I can focus on the here and now and, and handle what was, whatever the situation was in front of me. Now do I come back?
Now I have to come back and pick up that. Thing that I distanced myself from in that moment and deal with it eventually because I, I can’t just leave it there, ’cause that, that’s just gonna be a lot of heavy weight that I’m, I’m dealing with. Or am I thinking of something different than what you’re talking about?
Barb Thompson: [00:20:00] Yeah, I think it depends. When I use the word distancing, I just mean
like a perspective shift.
Scott DeLuzio: Okay.
Barb Thompson: just. You in the situation and all
you can see is that five meter target.
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Barb Thompson: a distancing technique, you’re kind of just able to see a little bit of the bigger
picture, which sometimes gives you the perspective
of
Scott DeLuzio: it.
Barb Thompson: okay, in the whole picture, like this is a
small piece.
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Barb Thompson: yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: it. Yeah. I, I get that now because that, that five meter target when you’re standing Yeah. Standing five meters away. That looks like your whole world. That looks huge. But when you back it up to. I’m not, not even a 30,000 foot, a thousand foot view, you see a whole lot more
Barb Thompson: Right,
Scott DeLuzio: you see that that
sliver of, that a thousand foot view is just a real tiny piece of the whole overall picture.
And there’s, hey, you might be finding some good things out there too, as, and that’s, I think the goal that that you’re talking about. So what I was talking about was something completely [00:21:00] different. That was what I was talking about, is kind of more of a temporary countermeasure for
Barb Thompson: that is
Scott DeLuzio: crisis mode.
Barb Thompson: exactly.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Barb Thompson: is
something that we teach in like in the moment
performance, like let’s say you’re going into a shoe house.
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Barb Thompson: have to be focused on
what’s right in front of you
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Barb Thompson: well. You can’t be thinking about thoughts or emotions or anybody watching or how you’re being evaluated.
Like any of those internal or external distractions will keep you from doing the job in the moment. Yeah, those are, would be two different things. Both. Both effective as far as performance is concerned. But as far as like an overall mindset and a way to look at life, the distancing is a bit more like perspective taking rather than trying to compartmentalize a tough thing. We really, order to get the most from it, need to embrace it
at, in, at the end of the day. Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that’s that I think it was where I was getting at because I, I, I had a feeling I was [00:22:00] thinking of something different than what you were actually talking about. I, I just, I just wanted to clarify and, and I’m sure some of the listeners maybe were, were thinking of something similar as well.
And so, you know, I wanna make sure that we’re, we’re all on the same page here. But I like that, that mindset of, that distancing. It’s, it’s almost like you have a picture on your phone, you know, it’s like real close to, you know, somebody’s face or whatever, and then you like zoom out on, you know, kinda like scroll out or whatever.
And you get to see the whole picture. And before it was just like that one person, but then you look at it and it’s a whole crowd of people and you realize there’s, there’s a lot more going on than just that one thing in that picture. So, that, that’s a. Interesting way to think about it. And honestly, something I, I don’t think I had thought of before this conversation is, is to kind of take a step back and you know, just in a practical terms, like I, I think I get what you’re saying now.
Just practically speaking though, you want to just be able to look around you and. Maybe this one thing [00:23:00] is fallen apart in your life and you’re, you’re having trouble with this one area, but look at all the other things that might be good. You know, if you have a family and you know, you know, they’re healthy and, and, okay, well I can be grateful for that.
And, and I think at the end of the day it comes down to gratitude and just being able to look at those things that you can be grateful for. Right.
Barb Thompson: Yeah, by using a distancing or chunking goals, any of that stuff, sense
of
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Barb Thompson: you are you’re really trying to
just stop that fight or flight response.
To a chronic kind of stress issue. Stop that fight or flight. ’cause that’s an emotional response. And you know, through your which is totally an emotional part of the brain.
And just lock back into, you know, the decision making, the logic that that comes when you’re able to take a few steps back, take a few deep breaths. And we find that you just have more capacity that the con the
dots are connected a bit more.
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Barb Thompson: you can engage that part of your brain [00:24:00] also in looking at,
you know, the problems you’re facing.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, that, that’s a good way to, to to put it. Now on the, on the other side, so. That those are some tools to kind of deal with some of the, the issues that, that people might be facing. But, you know, in your experience working as a operational psychologist, what were some of the challenges that you were seeing people dealing with?
Whether it was, you know, like, pre-selection or like maybe a post-deployment type thing where they were, they were coming to you afterwards and, you know, PTSD type things, or, or what were some of the, the major issues that you were experiencing or not, not you experiencing, but you in, in the people that you were seeing, I guess is what I’m trying to say.
Barb Thompson: Yeah, sure. I think, I mean, you already mentioned a lot of it, but so, so preselection, it’s the hard you’re
choosing, right? So you’re excited about it, you’re
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Barb Thompson: you’re locked in, you’re [00:25:00] focused. Your time, your attention, your effort is all focused on one thing. And so that’s a more simple way.
To, to kind of live life. And it might not seem simple for the people around you, but cognitively it’s more simple than say post-deployment when it’s been very busy or kinetic,
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Barb Thompson: been a trauma either, you know, life was lost that you know, a loved one. Someone you are close with or there’s civilian
loss on, you know, on, on the other
side
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Barb Thompson: There can be a number of things that happen on a deployment or sometimes it’s just like, you know, something catastrophic happens at home and you are just away and you, and you feel a loss
of, there’s no sense of control like you
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Barb Thompson: have if you were here, here to help. So there’s a number of things that that just. Every human being, no matter high per, how high performing you are or not you know, you’ll face those types [00:26:00] of things whenever you raise your hand to do hard things because there is no way for us to predict what you’re going to be exposed to. So there’s really, there’s, there’s almost no way to I guess the, the myriad of, of. Ways that I’ve
encountered, you know, individuals as
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Barb Thompson: that
lifespan of the,
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah,
Barb Thompson: but
Scott DeLuzio: I, guess that was maybe a, a bit of an unfair question because there, there are so many different people with so many different experiences and so many different reactions to those experiences. And, and some of ’em could be, you know, better than others even if they were in the same, the same firefight, for example, they experienced essentially the same thing, but they could have two completely different experiences from their perspectives and that that
could result in two different you know, ways of, of dealing with it. To one person. It could have just been a big nothing, and you’re like, oh, it’s just another day.
And to somebody else, it could been, well, this could have been life changing for that person. Exactly.
Barb Thompson: Yeah. And I [00:27:00] think and I think like, let’s, I. However, it is it, we don’t choose it, right?
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Barb Thompson: that, that, that moment or those series of moments or how the years accumulate. Many times we don’t choose how our brain
decides to perceive those. and,
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Barb Thompson: And that’s important to know.
So whether it’s whether it’s that you’re having thoughts that like. You know, the, it’s just not worth it
anymore, or you don’t feel safe with yourself
or you don’t have any connection to other people, or your heart’s racing at random times and you don’t know why. Like a number of things can happen.
That really I, I’ve found that that. That many of the guys
are surprised by, you know, we’ve
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Barb Thompson: them in the best way. They are the best of the best, and still, of course, like they’re humans. And you know, like I said in the beginning, the brain is built for survival and it’s gonna take those snapshots [00:28:00] of, you know, whatever cues in your environment.
And it does that to keep you alive, right?
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Barb Thompson: It’s all for your survival, but sometimes those things stick with you and it just, it, it’s hard to make sense of. And I think that’s when it’s important to early and often. You wanna. You wanna talk with people,
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Barb Thompson: You wanna talk with your, your buddies.
And like you said, everybody has different experiences, but it is
a good way to stay connected.
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Barb Thompson: we know buffers stress in every phase of life is staying connected to other people that you feel close to and just feeling that support. And then of course there are, you know, professionals that will have all kinds of very effective treatment protocols. And even then, like it’s. It takes a lot, a lot of courage to go, not necessarily because. of the stigma so
much, even though of course there’s always gonna
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Barb Thompson: and that’s, that’s just a human thing. Like, that’s not a military
thing. That’s a human [00:29:00] pride, right?
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah,
Barb Thompson: ego. It’s just a human thing to say like, I don’t wanna admit that I have any problems.
I don’t wanna ask for help. So that’s, that’s not a high performing thing. That’s not a low performing thing. Like that’s just our human ego
getting in our way,
quite frankly. You
Scott DeLuzio: sure. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
And, and, And, you were talking about something about the you know, in those high stress environments, you know, our, our brains are, are wired to survive. And so like you, you were saying earlier, we create a set of rules that. Enable us to survive, you know? And that’s from a, a very young age.
You, you do that. You start learning things are,
yeah, exactly. It’s not like a you, you have to go to school to learn these things. This is just through life experience. You learn that this thing is dangerous. Okay, well don’t do that thing because I’m gonna get hurt or this thing is safe. So do more of that thing because I’ll stay safe if I do that thing.
Barb Thompson: right.
Scott DeLuzio: and, and so those are the types [00:30:00] of rules that help you survive just. Every day. I don’t care if you’re gonna the grocery store or if you’re walking down downtown, you know, Ramadi or whatever, like it doesn’t matter where you are. Like those are still things that are, are currently with you. And unfortunately, you get placed in situations where you might have to do certain things that go against some of those rules that you’ve created to keep yourself safe, like.
I might have to go rescue my buddy who is under fire and well, generally I wouldn’t go run out into where people are shooting because that’s stupid. Like, you don’t want to do that. But I also need to, you know, provide, you know, cover fire for my, my buddy so that he can get out of, out of this area that he’s pinned down in.
Well, that, that’s breaking one of those rules that you’ve made up in your head. You know, un unconsciously, like you said. But when that rule gets broken, I have to imagine that there’s probably some [00:31:00] psychological implications there that, that maybe you have to, you’re wrestling with, you know, like how, how do I reconcile that in, in my, in my mind, you know, is that, is that something that people are dealing with or am I kind of off on that?
Barb Thompson: like,
Some form of anxiety.
So
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah,
Barb Thompson: life is not looking like your brain wants
it to look, then you feel anxious.
Scott DeLuzio: sure.
Barb Thompson: there are a number of ways that, you know, I. With help, you can decrease that anxiety. And the great thing I think is always extremely encouraging is how malleable and changeable the brain is.
So it can be rewired, it just takes time, you
know, and effort and repetitions.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and I think to your point earlier that you were talking about doing those small things, the humor, the you know, those other things that you were talking about, the distancing, all, all the things that you were referring to earlier doing those just in your day-to-day life. When you have a minor setback, a minor [00:32:00] inconvenience, you know, you can laugh at that because at the end of the day, who cares?
It’s not a big deal.
Barb Thompson: right.
Scott DeLuzio: and then.
Barb Thompson: a rep you could do. You just got a
Scott DeLuzio: Ex Exactly right. That’s, that’s the, the point that you’re, you’re, you’re getting across here. You got, you’ve gotten that point across to me. I’m just kinda reiterating it in case the,
the listeners are, are not you know.
Tracking on that, but I, every rep that you do is just like, just like a rep in the gym.
Like if you haven’t lifted any weights like for the last 10 years, well you’re probably gonna have a difficult time going back in the gym and lifting the same weights that you did when you were 20. You know, it’s just not gonna work the same way.
But you can, you can start building that up again slowly and with.
Enough work, enough repetitions, enough effort. You might get back to maybe not exactly what you were when you’re a young, young person, but you know, when as you get older, and I’m experiencing this myself, it’s harder and harder to [00:33:00] get back to where I was when I was 20. And it’s, it’s a, a tough pill to swallow sometimes, but but it’s the same idea where, you know, the more repetitions that you do.
With anything, the, the better it gets. It’s, it’s almost like that muscle memory. You know, if you wanna get good at a sport, you, you have to practice it and you have to do it the right way. My, my son, my youngest son, he’s a pitcher in baseball. And I, I’ve told this story on the show before, but not, not for a little while.
So I’ll, I’ll say it again ’cause it’s kind of, kind of applies here. He was pitching and. He was doing the sidearm thing, like he was throwing sidearm and he was throwing the ball all wild, all over the place. And, and he was in the backyard practicing one time and I, I said, you know, you’re gonna, you’re gonna get really good at pitching the wrong way.
Barb Thompson: Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: so there is some something to be said about those repetitions that
if you’re doing the wrong thing, if you’re.
Just letting those negative thoughts [00:34:00] stay and fester and you’re entertaining those negative thoughts without countering them or, or whatever. That’s a,
Barb Thompson: and better at
Scott DeLuzio: you’ll get better at being negative.
You’ll get really good at being negative. And so, you know, just like with my, my son and pitching the wrong way.
Yes, you can practice, but you’re gonna, you’re gonna practice the wrong way. So you’re gonna get good at doing it the wrong way and not doing it the right way. And so, you know, same thing with, with these thoughts that, that you’re talking about.
And you know, these are choices that we make too, because when those negative thoughts come into our head, we can choose to. Just let them get us down or we can choose to laugh ’em off. You know, use a humor technique like you were talking about, or you know, any number of other, other things that we can do to kind of counter that, and that becomes that next repetition, right?
Barb Thompson: Yeah, use it as an experiment,
honestly. So you’re having a bad thought.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Barb Thompson: You know, write down the bad thought, right? And then challenge it. Say like, well, what are, what if I’m wrong? Like, what
are some [00:35:00] alternatives that
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Barb Thompson: also be possible? Right. And I think challenging your thoughts is a great way to start that
change process.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, what what might also be true and be honest about that, right? Because it’s easy to get down on yourself and convince yourself that, nope, world is ending. I’m, I’m a failure, I’m a, you know, whatever. You can, you can get really good at doing that really quickly. But again, that’s, that’s that. That bad pitch that, that I was talking about, that that’s, you can get good at that, but it doesn’t mean that it’s Right.
And, and so, and I’ve experienced that myself too, and I’m, I’m, I’ll be completely honest with that. Like, that’s, that’s a tough thing. Yeah,
Barb Thompson: we all have
Scott DeLuzio: yeah,
Barb Thompson: single person. I don’t care who you are. Like with me, like just put the ego aside
because it’s,
it’s almost always in the way.
Scott DeLuzio: yeah.
Barb Thompson: Like
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Barb Thompson: always in the
way. Are you human? Okay. You’ve had problems,
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Right.
Barb Thompson: But [00:36:00] what I love about change and the body and the brain is like, you can do it either way. So you can start by challenging
those, those thoughts that you have
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Barb Thompson: and playing devil’s advocate and, and, and looking for alternatives, right? Like you can challenge, you could start in the mind you could start in the behavior, right? And act as if, okay, like I’m, I am feeling a certain way, but I’m gonna act as if I’m gonna behave. In the
way that I want to feel. So
Scott DeLuzio: Okay.
Barb Thompson: am not, I’m feeling unmotivated completely. I’m feeling kind of down and depressed, but I’m gonna act as if I’m not, which means I’m gonna get up and I’m gonna go for a walk, or I’m gonna call
someone who’s important to me. Right,
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Barb Thompson: gonna get in that morning jog I’m going to get my eight hours of sleep, so I’m gonna act as if.
So we find that [00:37:00] change can
actually happen at either end of the spectrum,
Scott DeLuzio: Okay.
Barb Thompson: you’re gonna start with the brain or whether you, whether you’re gonna start with behavior. So behaviors. over time can eventually work backwards and change your thinking, or changing your thinking over time can affect the way that you behave. So that’s good news. You can start at
either end, whichever end you prefer.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Barb Thompson: and
both are effective at making change.
Scott DeLuzio: Well, that, that’s a, a good thing to know too because I, you know, for, for me anyways, I, I, a lot of times I feel like it’s like I, I just have to have the thought. Then I have to do something else to count, kind of counter that thought. And,
Barb Thompson: Mm-hmm.
Scott DeLuzio: But, but maybe there’s something I could do on the other end and make, maybe even make it so those negative thoughts don’t creep in.
At least not as often, you know? And that’s, that’s a good way to, to look at it too. Right? And, and like you said, this doesn’t, it doesn’t matter who you are. It doesn’t matter if you’re, you know, special forces,
you know, it doesn’t matter if you’re a civilian who has never. [00:38:00] Experience any military life whatsoever, you’re gonna have a bad day at some point.
Hope, hopefully there, there are fewer bad days than than good, but you’re gonna have bad days. That’s just part of the human nature. You’re things are going to to happen to you and they’re not gonna be pleasant. So how do you deal with those? How do you cope with those? And I, I think this is something that you know, especially in the, the military and the veteran communities that.
We have such a big issue with veteran suicides and you know, marriages that are, that fall, fall apart and just all sorts of issues that people end up having.
Barb Thompson: Right.
Scott DeLuzio: I, almost feel like some of this should be taught early on
Barb Thompson: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Scott DeLuzio: where, you give people the tools beforehand before they experience these
Barb Thompson: Right.
Scott DeLuzio: stress negative type situations and.
Let them be able to use some of those tools that they’ve learned because I mean, I, I know when I went through basic training, [00:39:00] they taught me how to disassemble machine guns, and I, I still know how to do it. Like you remember these things, right? And
Barb Thompson: You do.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Barb Thompson: Yeah. And to your point, so. We at the highest levels were like, so these are not boys and you know,
girls anymore. They are men and women.
They’ve,
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Barb Thompson: had, you know, a life of service already. They’ve been once at least assessed and selected. They’re, they’re coming again
now. Right. To continue kind of
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Barb Thompson: up that to the tip of the spear. And at that point, before they would start any of their technical, physical training, this is where we would start. We would start with. Defining your why would start with psychology of performance, right? In a classroom,
talking, right. Because that becomes the game changer at the end of the day because for most skills they can be taught.
And what we like to do is break all of these kind of mental and [00:40:00] psychological, skill. I’ll just say skills. Well. Most people don’t think of them skills. I think sometimes they think you’re either
like born that way or you’re not.
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Barb Thompson: they are skills, they can be learned, they can be practiced. But yeah, the feedback we got from the, the individuals kind of going through that experience with us was like, I always, I
wish I would’ve known this earlier.
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Barb Thompson: There are I think efforts to teach it, you know, at a younger end. I would say in earlier and earlier phases within the military at least. I know that it’s catching on in fire service, fire service and
know, police have had similar issues
with family dynamics and, and suicides. And so yeah, it’s definitely like we’re gonna teach you a lot of skills that are gonna make you a professional and, and part of the skills we’re gonna teach you are mental and psychological skills. I would love to see that. Yeah. And it’s all about, I [00:41:00] don’t think it take, honestly, like, it doesn’t take a psychologist in my opinion. To, to teach
these things at
every single level.
Scott DeLuzio: Right,
Barb Thompson: And then
Scott DeLuzio: right.
Barb Thompson: of, get into higher and higher levels of these things as, as people continue to develop in their careers. But certainly that’s the feedback we’ve gotten is like, I
just wish I would’ve known this earlier.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And I, I think that’s, that’s true with any of these life changing revelations that we have, that it’s like, oh my gosh, I’ve been struggling with this for so long and had, had I just known
Barb Thompson: No,
Scott DeLuzio: pointless. Yeah. I mean, I mean, there’s, there’s something to be said for, for the struggle that, that you go through.
It, it, it is, it is
useful to some extent.
Barb Thompson: Yes.
Scott DeLuzio: But sometimes it feels like, oh my, come on. Like, let’s get through this and
Barb Thompson: Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: be done with it. Like, what is the purpose? Especially when you’re going through it, it feels like it’s, it’s meaningless, it’s [00:42:00] pointless, and, and it just sucks. It’s, it’s like you’re,
Barb Thompson: end.
Scott DeLuzio: yeah.
Barb Thompson: change. Mm-hmm.
Scott DeLuzio: Like, you’re on a road trip with your, your family and your, your brother just keeps poking you or something, and it’s like, oh my God.
Just stop. Just stop. We can, we just get there already so that stops. You know, it, it’s one of those types of things where you, you want it over. And had you had those skills and tools and resources before you experience these situations. Not to say that it wouldn’t still be negatively affecting you, you know, a death of a loved one.
It’s still gonna be hard, but at least you have the tools. It’s, you know, like if, if you had to build a house without a hammer or saw or you know, backhoe or any of those types of things to get the, the house built and you just had your bare hands, I’m sorry, that house is gonna be a piece of crap.
You know, it’s, it’s gonna suck. You need the tools and so you have to. Get those tools in order to, to be able to use them and, and I think that earlier on, [00:43:00] that those tools can be taught. And again, it doesn’t have to necessarily be a psychologist who’s teaching it, you know, anybody can necessarily can be teaching it.
Barb Thompson: Mm-hmm.
Scott DeLuzio: the earlier on that people learn these tools, the easier of a time those hard times will be for them, I think going, going forward,
you know?
Barb Thompson: it normalizes
our negative emotional experiences a bit so that there’s less guilt and shame. And when there’s less guilt and shame, then we’re quicker to reach out to people. We’re quicker to be like, open
to doing things in a different
way
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Barb Thompson: about things in a different way.
So that guilt and shame really keeps us trapped in more of like an egocentric, like just thinking about myself or how I’m gonna be
perceived or what’s wrong with me.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Barb Thompson: so I’d love to get away from all that. Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: absolutely. And those things are, those things are awful traps to,
to find yourself in. And you know, I’m sure any of the listeners who are, who are listening to this right now, who are relating to that [00:44:00] they, they can agree that, that it’s just a terrible place to be. Nobody wants to be there, but we keep putting ourselves there.
Barb Thompson: Mm-hmm.
Scott DeLuzio: and that’s the, that’s the thing that I, I find fascinating in a crazy way, like. Especially from, from my own experiences. It’s like I, I could tell somebody else if they were saying the same things about themselves, that I’m saying about myself, I would tell them, no way. You know, I, I’d give ’em all the reasons that none of that stuff is true.
Looking inward to myself, I, I have the hardest time sometimes and you know, I, I,
Barb Thompson: Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: started to learn some of the, these tools that you’re talking about and some of the things to, to help work through that. But it’s, it’s hard. And, and I know a lot of people have trouble with that and you know, but.
Again, if you knew this stuff earlier, it would just be so much easier, right? So, I know, I know a lot of veterans a lot of maybe even active duty, some spouses and folks like that are listening to this show probably would love to know more about what you do and, and find out more [00:45:00] information.
You know, I’m sure we, we could. Continue talking for hours on, on this topic because there’s just so much to cover. But you know, there’s, there’s only so much time in the day and you know, I, I’d love to leave a little for the listeners if, if they want to you know, reach out to you and find out more about what you do and, and that type of stuff, where, where can they go to find more information?
Barb Thompson: Yeah, you can go to dr barb thompson.com. That’s a pretty easy place
to
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Barb Thompson: Yeah, and you can
Scott DeLuzio: Excellent.
Barb Thompson: me on LinkedIn also. LinkedIn is a funny place. You, you don’t wanna like be on there too much, but I have found that it, it, it can be useful in creating
meaningful connections
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Barb Thompson: what you wanna leave it with.
But you can, I’m happy to, I, I have people message me and we’ll hop on a call and we’ll talk it out. I love doing that. I love saying like. What’s the problem? Let’s strategize together and just think of [00:46:00] some ways like moving forward that you can use this for yourself, your team, or your organization. There’s a couple of organizations that I’m passionate about,
and I think what might be helpful to your listeners,
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Barb Thompson: one of those is
called Shields and Stripes,
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Barb Thompson: and it is a holistic treatment program for veterans and first responders. And what my friend Steve has done, and Jen, they have put together a holistic team with Yeah, you’ve got your. Your psych assets, but you also have strength and conditioning. You have physical therapy,
occupational therapy, you
have like spiritual assets. You have dieticians and they’re looking at you from every angle. And you do it. You do this three week intensive treatment program with seven other individuals, right, who are facing, usually it’s trauma of some kind, so [00:47:00] PTSD or some type of cognitive, issues from TBI, but check them out. We are moving to three cohorts a year. And this is an all expense paid treatment program that’s been life changing for the individuals in it. So I would encourage, you can find them on my website as well. Yep. And then hero Games Charity is another one that is it honors a Gold Star family every year through. one day, it’s a full day immersive team experience. So if you’ve never been through an assessment and selection, you’ve never been in the military, or you have, you know, like me, or like you, you will love the day spent out in the Blue Ridge Mountains honoring a Gold star family with a 35, 45 pound ruck on your back and doing some team events.
So. Yeah, those are some things that I’m interested in The [00:48:00] places you can find me. you said, I
think we’ve, it’s tip of the iceberg, you
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Barb Thompson: that we’ve talked about. And I think there are many practical things that can, can help not only veterans, but
The people who love the veterans.
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Barb Thompson: as well as we do, share a lot of similarities with you know,
First responders as well, so.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. And and to your point, the, the people who love the veterans, they, the veterans, sometimes they don’t know where to
Barb Thompson: Yep.
Scott DeLuzio: reach out to or, or just don’t.
There, there I, I was this way. I was too thickheaded and I, I didn’t want to reach out. I, I can handle this on my own. I can figure it out.
But sometimes a little gentle nudge from a loved one, a spouse, a family, other family member, someone like that might just push you in the right direction to find the help that you need. And so, you know, for, yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Barb Thompson: Go, go and watch some of these testimonies of people who [00:49:00] have, they’re like, well, yeah, like, oh, we do have plenty of people who are like my wife or my best friend, like they
told me to apply that I need to do this.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Barb Thompson: And then it’s, it’s the same thing. It’s like.
Why didn’t I just do it earlier?
You know
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Barb Thompson: mean? Like your life is so
valuable. Let’s not waste any of the days.
Scott DeLuzio: Right. And, and the other way to look at that too is that you know, if you’re. A parent or a spouse or child of someone, whatever relationship it is that you have with those other people I’m sure everyone wants to be the best at it that they can be. I want to, I, I want to be the best father I can be.
I wanna be the best husband that I can be. I wanna be the,
you know, the best, whatever that I can be. And if I’m, if I’m not going to my kids’ games, because I don’t wanna be in the crowds of people, or if I’m not you know.
Doing things, going out with them, taking them bowling, taking them to the movies or, you know, doing things with them because I don’t want to,
Barb Thompson: Mm-hmm.
Scott DeLuzio: [00:50:00] I’m not really giving them the experiences that, you know, that they should really, they, they should be able to experience as, as kids and, and so.
Barb Thompson: Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: I do, I don’t do it necessarily for me. I mean, yes, there is that component, but you know, a big piece of it is what is my why? You know, going back to that, my why is tho those other people, those other people in my life that I care for, that I,
I want to show up for them the best way that I can, you know, and, and I think everyone has to fi figure out what that why is for themselves and
Barb Thompson: we
can definitely help in that
Scott DeLuzio: yeah, for sure.
Barb Thompson: I.
is scary,
Scott DeLuzio: It is
Barb Thompson: I, I guarantee you’ve already faced scary things. And I also know I’ve seen it, that there is relief. So that’s
what I want for everyone.
Scott DeLuzio: Absolutely. And you’re doing great work and I really appreciate everything that you’re doing
Barb Thompson: Same to
Scott DeLuzio: Thank you. I appreciate that.
But thank, thank you so much for not only the work that you’re [00:51:00] doing, but also for taking the time to come on the show. I really did enjoy our conversation and looking forward to maybe having another conversation in the future to kind of chip away at some of the iceberg.
Barb Thompson: Yeah, really.
That sounds great. Thank you so much for having me.
Scott DeLuzio: All right. Thank you.