Episode 531 Susannah Stokes How Psychedelics Help After Military Service Transcript
This transcript is from episode 531 with guest Susannah Stokes.
Scott DeLuzio: [00:00:00] A lot of us get out of the military thinking that the hard part is behind us. We’ve got a decent job, we got a family new routine, but something just still feels off. It’s like you’re doing everything that you’re supposed to be doing, or at least what they tell you to do. But. You don’t feel like yourself.
That’s exactly where Susanna Stokes found herself. After leaving the Marine Corps. She tried the corporate path. She checked all the boxes, but underneath she still felt like she was carrying things that no one else could see, and struggling to figure out what came next. In this episode, Susanna opens up about what it’s really like to lose your sense of identity after service and how her search for clarity led her somewhere unexpected into the world of psychedelics.
She got into healing and. Inner work that most of us were never taught to even consider when getting outta the military or anywhere else for that matter. But before we begin, uh, getting into this episode, I do want to take a moment to raise awareness for [00:01:00] something that’s deeply important to me and to our community.
The Global War On Terrorism Memorial Foundation. This organization is working to build a permanent national memorial in Washington DC to honor the service members, families, and civilians impacted by the global war on terrorism. This memorial serves as both a tribute to those who served and a way to ensure that their sacrifices are recognized and remembered for generations to come.
If you would like to learn more or find out how you can support their mission, visit GWOT memorial foundation.org. Now, let’s get into it.
Scott DeLuzio: Hey, Susanna, welcome to the show. I’m really glad to have you here. Looking forward to this conversation.
Susannah Stokes: I am so glad to be here and thank you for what you’re doing,
Scott. This is so important in the world. It.
Scott DeLuzio: [00:02:00] Yeah. No, absolutely. I, I, and I agree, it’s, it’s something that we all need to kind of come together as, as veterans and help each other out, you know, in whatever way we can. And this is just, you know, one of those small ways that I, I feel like I can help out. And, you know, you, you have a lot of great stuff that you have going on too, which I’m sure we’ll get into in, in just a bit.
But before we get into that side of things tell us a little bit about yourself, a a little bit about your military background and you know, all, all that kind of stuff. And then, then we’ll, we’ll jump into it.
Susannah Stokes: Yeah. It is always interesting speaking about my time in the military and other parts of my life because it often feels like there
are. lives that I’ve already lived. So I’m
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Susannah Stokes: there was that Susanna, there was this next Susanna, and then now there’s this Susanna. And the evolution has been really beautiful and painful in all of the things,
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Susannah Stokes: But the short intro is that I little Susanna grew up on a organic blueberry farm in Georgia where I [00:03:00] really deeply connected to Earth and the medicine that is our planet and and also then was also raised in the south. So I was raised in a lot of those traditional values. My grandfather was a bishop in the Methodist church, so that was very strongly.
Rooted into, you know, a Christian kind of base. And then and then I chose because of my father’s encouragement. We might, we might say there are other words for it, but strong encouragement to join the military, especially the Marine Corps. so I made the decision to choose to choose the Naval Academy as a path of education.
And then that, that led me into the Marine Corps. And then I, I spent two deployments in Afghanistan in support of Operation Enduring Freedom. And, and that then led me into the tech industry in the corporate world and trying to find myself, trying to find my purpose. Like where am I? Who am I? And that was a whole journey of of discovery. [00:04:00] Those were those were powerful years for, for redefining of who you see today. But I’ve, but
then I, then I stepped into motherhood and that was
the real
like grounding into,
Scott DeLuzio: Sure. Sure.
Susannah Stokes: I am. Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And
you know, it, it’s always interesting to hear people’s journey and, and
you know, where they, they started from and where they ended up. And you know, if you look at a lot of people and see what their their upbringing was and, and you say, where, where do you think this person’s gonna be in, you know, 20 years, 30 years, whatever.
And, a lot of times you’re not gonna be able to nail that one on the head because it, it life throws so many curve balls and just experiences accumulate and just shape shape the way you see the world, the what, you know, things that you you, you do in life. And, and so, you know, it, it’s all it’s all good.
It’s all, it’s all interesting stuff that, that takes place in, in life. That’s what, that’s what makes life interesting, I suppose. Right. And you know, [00:05:00] but, but like you said.
Yeah, the spice, right? Yeah, exactly. But like you said, it’s, it’s challenging too at times. And I’m, I’m sure you know, some of your time in the military was challenging sometime, maybe after the military, even before, you know, I’m sure there were challenges that that helped you grow and, and helped you learn different lessons, right?
Throughout, throughout your, your time you know, here on this planet, right? I mean, we all, we all learn stuff, right? So after you, you got out of the military you know, two deployments to Afghanistan you know, all, all this stuff that you, you did you, you went to go, you know, work in corporate America, like a lot of a lot of individuals do after getting outta the military.
How, how’d you feel like your military experience shaped that leadership style or, you know, shape your experience in that the business world?
Susannah Stokes: Yeah, I think that was a, a sort of necessary and natural transition because the corporate world. Is also a very large organizational [00:06:00] structure, so it had that same level of safety. There’s so many overlaps. People are like, that’s weird. You went from from the Marine Corps into Facebook. Like, that seems like opposite.
And I’m like, no, not when you’re going from an organization that has 175,000 people. And then you go into an organization that, least when I was there, grew from about 15,000 to
30,000. So there is that same level
of organiz organizational structure.
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Susannah Stokes: lot of the new tech industries are quite literally doing everything for you.
I mean, they, they do your dry cleaning, they feed you, they, you know, they, they
create a whole lifestyle for you, which is very similar to the Marine Corps, the military. In
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Susannah Stokes: Where you have a tribe of people who are all working on the same thing, type a performance based, competitive personalities. So I found that there was a lot of overlap. The challenge in leadership for me was that. [00:07:00]
Leadership is
not trained
anywhere but the
military right now,
Scott DeLuzio: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Susannah Stokes: it’s not like there’s no direct training leadership. People have to go on their own to do self-development, professional development programs in order to define themselves as leaders. Our systems, in the corporate world, do not support that. So I found that a lot of my soft skills as a leader were not. Appreciated. They were not seen or understood and they were. And then, and then because I didn’t necessarily have the jargon the positioning on my resume, I would then
be put into positions that were lower than what I
really had the capacity to hold.
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Susannah Stokes: and that ended up, that ended up being a sort of. Maybe if [00:08:00] at that time it was more of like a vendetta. That was sort of my vendetta, my mission in the corporate industry and, and particularly at Facebook, was to help veterans who were coming into the company to be more deeply honored for the soft skills that they carried and to be placed
in higher roles. Because I didn’t want what happened to me
to happen to other people.
Scott DeLuzio: No. And that, that
is a actually a good warning for some other folks who might be in that process of transitioning out and, and getting into, their first civilian job. I mean, yeah, that stuff does not translate. And someone who’s has zero experience with the military you know, and even sometimes no experience with maybe the Marine Corps.
You know, maybe they came from, you know, the, the Air Force or something and, and you know, they may not. Exactly know exactly what it is that you did in the, the Marine Corps, because some of the acronyms and the other things don’t necessarily translate to what they know. And and so yeah, you may not [00:09:00] be put into a position that you feel is, you know, the right position.
So kind of translating that, some of that stuff into, I guess civilian speak, if you will, and kind of making that make sense for folks. But another thing that you mentioned, which before you mentioning it, I don’t think I had ever really considered it, but how some of the tech companies they, they take care of a lot of things like meals and dry cleaning and all these other perks of the job, right?
But. You know, like how many other jobs are out there outside of the military that take care of meals and, and have like that kind of involvement in, in your day-to-day life. And you know, it, that might be you know, a bit of an easier transition actually because you’re, you’re used to, you know, being able to go to the chow hall or, you know, whatever, and be able to have that stuff just there readily available.
And that’s just a part of your. Your work life really, and going into a civilian job that also has that, that sounds like that might be a little bit easier of a transition [00:10:00] when you don’t have to necessarily worry about all those things. I know it’s, it’s a small thing, but it’s a thing that you, you
Susannah Stokes: no. I mean
Scott DeLuzio: day after day, right?
Susannah Stokes: huge. It was so funny because in the transition programs, I think like in the, in the
Army or the
Navy, they call it taps in the
Scott DeLuzio: Yep.
Susannah Stokes: Corps, it’s like
TRS, I forget which, which ones, you know,
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Susannah Stokes: readiness essentially, which were never that robust of programs because ultimately they’re not investing a lot in. The transition process for veterans because they really just want you to stay, like stay as long as you can, but at some point some they’re going to leave. Like you’re gonna retire or you’re going to leave somehow. So these transition programs really were not as effective as they as they could have been.
But one thing that they said over and over again, kind of in the same energy of when your math teacher in.
Middle school said, you’re not gonna always have
a
calculator in your pocket. Right.
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Susannah Stokes: like, here, you’re like, [00:11:00] with your,
Scott DeLuzio: Here it is.
Susannah Stokes: And you’re like,
actually Miss Betty.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. Right.
Susannah Stokes: Yes, I will. So the same thing was true about the transition seminars.
They were like, it’s not like you’re gonna go, you know, you’re not gonna have all these. Things that the military is gonna offer you, you’re not going to have like your meals ready, you’re not gonna have housing
provided. You’re not gonna have all of this. And when I got to
Facebook, I was like, which is now meta?
Of
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Susannah Stokes: I was like. Yeah, no, actually I am gonna have
all of these things and I’m gonna have them better and they’re gonna
be, the food is gonna be tastier.
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Susannah Stokes: and so there was an, an upgrade feeling of that, but it came with its own challenges, right? Just like everything has sort of the light and the dark. The, the boundaries with work were significantly reduced in the corporate industry because there isn’t that leadership, and so you don’t have. Wonderful [00:12:00] leaders who have been trained in how to professionally their team to their greatest capacity. I did get very lucky to be with some, with some leaders, one of whom was a veteran, who was a had been a supply officer in the military, and so he knew he had a lot of, of, of experience. But and then both of my, a couple of other managers that I had were really, and are still very dear friends of mine and, and, and are wonderful leaders. But but that was just through their own understanding of it. And, and so I found, you know, when I was at Facebook, I ended up growing the veteran. Program called Facebook Veterans Group, from about 2000 excuse me, 200 to 2000. And and, and we, we built chapters all around the world. We went from a couple chapters to, to over 20 chapters around the world and, and [00:13:00] just built the movement around understanding the importance of veterans, not just from, for their service. And not from the lens of these people have post-trauma, but from the lens of these people have incredible training and soft skills that this
organization needs and we need
to honor them.
And, and Sort
Scott DeLuzio: Sort of
Susannah Stokes: their experience. So that
Scott DeLuzio: that was, that was big.
Susannah Stokes: for me. And it, it felt it felt
very helpful for easing some of the, the
identity crisis that I was going
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Susannah Stokes: I left the military. And because I’d always thought I was gonna be career military and very quickly realized that. That the Marine Corps was not built for me.
I have a tattoo on my head like
that is, I’m not their people
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Susannah Stokes: but but it set me
up for, for incredible success in life.
And and for that I am grateful.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and I think that’s a [00:14:00] lot of the folks that I talk to anyways is the, the experience that they have in the military, regardless of the branch of service, it, it sets ’em up for successes down the road if they know how to leverage that, that experience for that, that. Particular type of success that they’re looking for in, in, in a career.
You know, the leadership skills regardless of what rank you held in the military, I mean, everyone down to a, you know, a private, all the way up the, the, the chain of command. It has some leadership skills built into them and they, they learn these things. You know, just throughout, just through you know, maybe osmosis if you will, just from watching how their leadership does things.
And then, then you can kind of take that away and, and that helps you down the road too. So, so that’s, I I, I always like to talk about, you know, people’s transition and, you know, was it difficult? Was it hard? You know, was it easy for you, you know. There’s, there’s all sorts of different things that people experience in that transition.
And, and some people have just such a [00:15:00] terrible time and they don’t, they don’t know how to handle that, that transition. But you know, in your case, you know, it seemed like there were some challenges for sure, and I think, you know, a lot of people do have challenges, but you know, you found a good fit for you anyways.
And, and it, it helped you know, with that, that transition from military to civilian life, right? And, and you also talked just a little bit in the, in the very beginning about kind of, you know, some of the faith and, and things like that as, as you were growing up and you, you had you know, prior to us starting to record here I, I had seen something about you talking about a spiritual awakening at some point during, during this process.
What, what sparked that, that, for you, and, and what was that all about?
Susannah Stokes: Yeah, well those, that identity crisis, which I think every veteran goes through is, is something that is usually born from us, not living in our full expression of who we are. What I say in that is I, I didn’t remember who I am [00:16:00] was wearing a lot of masks and a lot of those masks were built in trauma.
And that’s often what, what draws us into the military in the first place is that desire and that need for the chaotic energy so that then I can like build the structure and the discipline to fully. Own my, you know, and, and sort of in some ways like be the warrior against my inner trauma. But ultimately that got really loud as I was getting out of the military because I didn’t have that mission to focus on in the same way. And it led me into exploration of things. And, and what I found were psychedelics. I found psychedelic medicines. First recreationally I first experienced them just through the Burning Man culture because I was living in San Francisco in the Bay Area, and the Bay Area just has a whole different. Culture around psychedelics. They’ve been very present there [00:17:00] since the seventies and, and, and even before that. And so people don’t see them
as much as the same kind of threat that, that a
lot of the rest of the country does.
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Susannah Stokes: the energy around it was much softer and I began to explore and. through a combination of ritual ceremonies and recreational I, I was basically meditating on a mountain in California and had a full. of who I am, what my purpose is, and I got to see my bloodlines and how the perfection of all of the ancestors that came together to create me created a perf perfect being that is designed for a very particular thing in the world. And, and, and it was more general in that moment. And, and over time I’ve defined it more and more. But it basically was [00:18:00] like, you do healing work, Susanna, like you are a healer. And, and there’s a lot of, you know, verbiage around, well, nobody heals anyone else. We only heal ourselves and then we get to mirror that. But what does that mean to you? Right? So I learned I was a healer. I learned that I really worked in the, in the frequency of healing and activation, then I needed to be
doing this purpose work that
was much more spiritual
Scott DeLuzio: And
Susannah Stokes: and, and basically
it said like, okay, so you should
probably stop doing all of this other
stuff that’s wasting
your time.
Scott DeLuzio: sure. Well, and that, that’s a good point too because, you know, I, I think a lot of us coming out of the military, our identities are tied into the military so much, and when we, we leave, you know, who you got that identity crisis? Who am I,
you know, what, what am I supposed to do with myself? What is my purpose?
And. Trying to figure that out is, [00:19:00] is not always easy. Especially when you’re like latched onto that thing like the military, the Marine Corps, the army, the navy, whatever, and you’re, you’re just latched onto it. And you know that if, if you’re leaving that, that’s no longer your purpose. Like the, you’re not there to serve the Marine Corps anymore.
Like you’re, you’re out, you’re done, like you said. Just isn’t your, it wasn’t a good fit for you for long term and you know, it was a good experience probably for you while, while you’re in it, but it, you know, it’s not a long term thing for you. And so, what’s next? And, and I think we have to be open to the, that question and, and what that answer could be and be open to it.
Not having anything to do with the military, not having it to do anything with. Anything in particular just be open to a, a, a wide variety of different things that it could be. And then you, you start to, you know, open up that, that door to the possibilities that you know, like, Hey, I, I, I think my purpose is like, in your [00:20:00] case, is, is healing people.
Or my purpose might be in, you know, helping veterans with, with, you know, something or helping. Dogs or whatever, I don’t know, whatever it is, you, you have a purpose. And, and I think you, you phrased it in an interesting way that, you know, all of, all of your ancestors came together and created this perfect person for this particular role, right?
You’re not a perfect person for every role, but you’re a perfect person for this, this particular role. And, and this is what you are what you feel like you’re meant to. To do is, is I think kind of the, the gist of it, right?
Susannah Stokes: like a, it’s
Scott DeLuzio: It’s like a hammer. Yeah.
Susannah Stokes: I’m not gonna try to
use
a
Scott DeLuzio: Hammer.
Susannah Stokes: screw in nails.
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Susannah Stokes: Stop
doing that. It’s not
working
Scott DeLuzio: Right, right. Exactly. Yeah.
Susannah Stokes: And so the hammer
has a very particular purpose
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Susannah Stokes: it is
there to hammer in the nails
in that particular way. And sometimes remove them, right? Because it’s
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Susannah Stokes: side.
Maybe you can use [00:21:00] it for another, a couple other things that, you know, you’re hammering big stakes into the
ground, things like that. But. Ultimately it is
there for this motion.
Scott DeLuzio: Right, and ultimately.
Susannah Stokes: humans are built with the specificity and the sort of infrastructure within our systems. What I finally learned through various understandings of myself through systems like human design and, and, and if you even see it, like models of cars, I love cars.
So you know, a Porsche is not designed to be going
off road and doing the same thing that a Jeep.
Strangler is here to do
Scott DeLuzio: Sure. Sure.
Susannah Stokes: A allow yourself. And yes, we have a world where we have this ability to explore and understand all the
different dynamics. People can understand different facets of themselves,
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Susannah Stokes: but you have a thing you came here to do.
So do that thing
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Susannah Stokes: and discover what that thing is. [00:22:00] Because because that will be the greatest power that you could ever into and allow, you know,
that, just like what you said, the openness is really key. And for me, that openness was built on disillusionment, which is what most of us have to start with being in the military and in war. I looked around and I said, how in the world is it possible that God could allow this to happen? The God that I knew, the God that I grew up with, that was more of a masculine archetype with a white beard and is on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel, like that version of God, that’s puppeteering everything. I was like, how in the world? So then I lost my construct of God. I lost my faith. I lost all of my religion. I basically went full open to, okay, well that construct, that idea is no longer working for me. This, this rose colored glasses of what the [00:23:00] military should have been. But actually it turned out to be my personal hell was not what I thought it was gonna be. So
now what? Now what? And I just
asked now what.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And I, I think that’s a question that a lot of us end up having is now what
you know, right? Like
Susannah Stokes: Yep.
Scott DeLuzio: what? After the military, now what? After I tried that thing and it didn’t seem to work out now. Alright, great. Now what, you know, what do I, what do I do next? And that’s a big part of what I want to do with this show not just this particular episode, but this podcast in general is, is.
Just letting people know that there are options out there for you, whether you’ve, you’ve tried, you know, one type of therapy or another and or you’ve, you’ve tried one type of career or another and these things just don’t seem to be working for you. And you’re sitting there scratching your head saying, now what?
Well, there’s something else out there for you. You can keep trying different things. And, and I think that’s part of the the whole process is to just keep [00:24:00] trying. I mean, if we, if we just gave up and, and said, you know what, gee, I, I don’t know. I don’t know if I’ll ever find what my, my purpose is. I just, you know, I’ll just give up on that.
Well, then, okay, well, good luck. You’re not gonna find what your purpose is, right? But if you, if you do give it a shot and, and you. Don’t find it. Well, and then you give it a shot with something else and, and again and again. And eventually you’re gonna find it. You, you’ll, you’ll, you’ll get to, you know, whatever that that place is.
But you had mentioned earlier that psychedelics were kind of a part of this journey for you. And I know there’s, there’s, I kinda wanna dive into that a little bit more because I know there’s some folks who might be a little skeptical about that or, or just unfamiliar. You know, you kind of alluded to that too.
It’s a little bit more accepting of it in, you know, the San Francisco area, but maybe not everywhere. Is is like that explain how that worked for you. Like what, what, what, what led you to, to that to, to using the psychedelics and, and how did it, how did it help you? In, in what way did it help?
Susannah Stokes: Oh man, so many things.
Scott DeLuzio: And it’s probably a [00:25:00] loaded question, right?
Susannah Stokes: Yeah. Love that question. Thank you for the tee up on that one because truly psychedelics were a massive. Moment or a, a partner, I would say in my awakening process of recognizing who I am and finding that purpose that felt authentic to who I am versus the surface layer. Of purpose that we’re often looking for in the material world where we’re looking for a sense of like, oh, maybe I can grab that, or I can do this with my day, or I can get this job and that will be my purpose. You could even have a job that is completely aligned with your purpose, but if you are not understanding. your purpose actually is and how deep it goes into your being and into your spiritual process, then it will still feel very empty. And that’s what [00:26:00] psychedelics did for me. It was, it connected me deeper to the. True intention of why I was doing the things I was doing. And the way it does that on a neurological level is in the brain.
And of course there’s, we’re still working on the research of, of what it does to the heart, mind, and even the GWOT mind because there are three minds in our body, but on the, in the brain mind, in the head. We are allowing these medicines to quiet the default mode network of the brain, and the default mode network is that pattern based behavior that tells you when you get in the car, I use this hand, I
pull the seatbelt across, I plug it in, I put my hands on the
wheel, I put my right foot on the gas.
You know
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Susannah Stokes: how to do it. It’s the muscle memory. This is how I do this thing. And then on the challenging side, the default mode network gives you your shadow behaviors. It gives you your subconscious reactions to [00:27:00] things. So when someone says, and they get really big. In a fight with you, maybe your, your, your partner or someone you love gets really big in a fight with you and you’re like, I’m disappointed in you. Your response to that may be to just leave the room and walk away and slam the door, right? That’s an unconscious behavior that is built in the default mode network of the brain, because that’s what you used when you were a child to escape some sorts of big arguments between parents or caregivers. So this becomes aware to you. Through the work with psychedelics and in macro sessions, you can go deep into that and you can go even deeper into those trauma those traumatic experiences. And unpack them and untangle them and start to understand, oh, I was just a little child when I saw my parents fight like this. And I watched my father leave the room and slam the door on my mother. [00:28:00] And so that’s the pattern
that I learned. But that pattern is actually no longer
serving me and my wife, for example. Right. And the medicine can help you re. Calibrate that
experience in, micro ways. If we, if we work in a microdosing protocol, our, our organization you can either work with a one-on-one facilitator or group facilitator with, with macro sessions, or you can do virtual courses and programs with microdosing protocols and with microdosing protocols, you get the sort of little bits. Of untangling over time. And that’s why our protocols are three months because it takes two and a half to three months to make or break a habit based on a lot of scientific research, allows these neural pathways to be rebuilt because the way that neural pathways work. Is that they, the serotonin will take those neurons through the, the grooves, basically super highways in your brain and it [00:29:00] knows this is how I get from this place to this place. But
what that doesn’t leave room for is creativity. And that
is what you’re talking about with the openness,
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Susannah Stokes: The ability to be very open and curious allows us to problem solve in a completely new way so that when I get into that fight with my colleague or my partner and they start to yell, instead of me shrinking or running, I go, hold on. Let me sit here and breathe for three seconds. Will you breathe with me? And then let’s regulate. Let’s co-regulate and let’s figure out how to come back to a place of peace and connection. And then we can problem solve from our prefrontal cortex, which is really the adult part of the brain
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Susannah Stokes: which is our reptilian.
Fight,
flight, freeze fawn, part of the brain.
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Susannah Stokes: that is how these medicines really work. They completely re rewire us from amygdala response into prefrontal cortex if you allow it,
and if you’re working [00:30:00] with intention,
with a protocol. Mm-hmm.
Scott DeLuzio: Right. And I think that that’s an important piece. I’m glad you brought that up too, is, is that you know, if you’re. Just doing this with no real intentions. You’re not really, you know, being purposeful with it. It, it could rewire some things, but it, it may not be the way you want it to, to go. And so it’s, it’s important to you know, do this with, with some sort of intention.
And, you know, ideally working with somebody who, who knows what they’re doing and, and can help guide you through you know, this, this, this whole process because you know, just going it on your own may not be the, the best way to, to tackle that. Right.
Susannah Stokes: can easily retraumatize, right? So you can
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Susannah Stokes: for example, that those medicines can take you back into the trauma response. And then a lot of people will say, well, what about
bad trips? My experience with bad trips is
almost always, they’re unguided.
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Susannah Stokes: one, usually they are a recreational experience where you expected to
have a good time with a medicine and
you don’t [00:31:00] respect that.
It’s actually a medicine,
Scott DeLuzio: Sure. Sure.
Susannah Stokes: so
it’s like going, it’s like taking NyQuil
to go party. Like don’t do
that. Like, that’s
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Susannah Stokes: to help you.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Susannah Stokes: so, recognize that it’s a medicine and it’s gonna do a thing, right? It’s going to be working on your body and your brain and your entire physiology while you are with
it. And so bad trips are often just.
trips,
Scott DeLuzio: Okay.
Susannah Stokes: are journeys where you travel into the trauma because the medicine took you into the traumatic response or the traumatic experience you had. Often when you were small and you don’t have the capacity to meet it or to understand what it’s doing or to be able to recalibrate it, you don’t have guidance
and so then you end up staying there. A part of your
brain gets stuck there for a little while until you either
come back to the medicine or you find another person who can
help you untangle it and recalibrate it.
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Susannah Stokes: and sometimes [00:32:00] people will sit with those for decades. I mean, we’ve had people come to us and say, oh, I had a bad trip in high school, and they’re now in their fifties, and they’re like, I don’t know, like I’m nervous about it.
And I’m like, it’s because you’ve been sitting with this unfinished business. For several decades that is now scratching at your brain and is saying, this is the only way that we’re gonna complete this. So we do believe in completion of processes, and that will get you out of that loop, which those loops often then create addictive tendencies.
They create. Harmful relationship patterns attachment wounds and things like that, that keep us in these little safety boxes of trauma. But really those safety boxes end up being shields
from connection and deeper and deeper and
deeper. We
become more and more depressed.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. and
The way you described how this works and how this [00:33:00] helps kind of rewire some parts of the brain. The way it was described to me is like, you know, think of a, a stream that eventually becomes a river, and, you know, and all, all that stuff. It kind of wears a way at the earth and, and eventually forms a, a deeper and deeper you know, I guess crack or hole or whatever.
Yeah, a crevice. Yeah.
Susannah Stokes: Canyon.
Scott DeLuzio: Exactly. Yeah. And so, so when you get those,
those really deep ingrained you know, connections in your brain, that’s like the Grand Canyon type of thing. And that’s gonna take some work to get that
to be shifted out to someplace else. Right. You’re not, you’re not, you’re not gonna easily do that.
Right.
Susannah Stokes: has to come
up all the way
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Susannah Stokes: and out.
Scott DeLuzio: It may, it may no longer be the best way to get water from point A to point B,
Susannah Stokes: That’s right.
Scott DeLuzio: it’s
just the way it’s always been. And that’s just the way it always is. And so it kind of gets stuck in that, that pattern that it, that it flows through. And so like that’s [00:34:00] maybe not the best thing for that, that particular that particular stream or that particular river in this case.
Susannah Stokes: Right.
Scott DeLuzio: But through, you know, what you’re, you’re talking about here you’re able to say, okay, let’s get creative with how we move this water and let’s, let’s move it. Instead of going, you know, following the same route that we always have. Let’s, let’s maybe you know, build something else and, and we’ll, we’ll send it a different direction and maybe that’s a better direction for it to.
To end up going. And, you know, when it was described to me that way, it kind of made sense that that there are those connections in your brain. I mean, it’s obviously not a river, it’s just an, an analogy, but you know, it, it’s, it’s a connection from, from one point to another in your brain. And it, it.
Might be flow past a place that it doesn’t need to be flown past. And, and maybe you need to, you know, kinda redirect some of that stuff and to get yourself out of those old ways of thinking, old ways of doing things that, like you said, are no longer serving you anymore, but are just [00:35:00] the way things have always been done.
So that just became your default, your comfort mode, right.
Susannah Stokes: and one of the big things that that this is bringing up for me is also. So many of our veterans and just people in general are now working with things like antidepressants and SSRIs, antipsychotics and all sorts of other pharmaceuticals to, to heal some of the pain of that rushing river going in the same direction.
And really eventually the other side of it ends up being like a
dam. Or like a, a big wall, and then it’s
just slamming up against the wall
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Susannah Stokes: you’re like, the water has nowhere to go. So it starts of fill up, Philip, Philip, Philip, Philip. And it becomes uncomfortable at that place because there’s all this pressure. Well, what, what a lot of these pharmaceuticals are doing. just numbing the feeling of the, the [00:36:00] pressure. And that’s not to say that they are bad. I, I deeply honor and understand that there are places in our lives in which, when the pressure builds up so intensely, especially in our suppressed
emotional processes, we need to have a sense of ease
for a moment. We
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Susannah Stokes: experience ease in order
to know that we can even continue
Scott DeLuzio: Yep.
Susannah Stokes: have the energy to be like, okay. Like, I can actually face this and understand how to redirect this water supply to another way. But SSRIs, benzos, all of these different medicines that we are taking do not solve the
root problem, which is
that the direction
of the flow needs to be shifted.
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Yeah.
And
Susannah Stokes: the
Scott DeLuzio: yeah.
Susannah Stokes: that can do that really, that I have found, other than long-term support of, of other altered states of consciousness, like breath work, meditation all [00:37:00] these other techniques that then quiet that default mo network and highlight other parts of the brain and then encourage new neural pathways are psychedelics.
Because psychedelics not only encourage and highlight those creative centers, they quite literally. Create the new neural pathways and regenerate neurons called neurogenesis and basically birth new neurons that
then are using the new neural
pathways and are brand new. So they don’t
even have the programming of the old.
Scott DeLuzio: Sure. Sure. And when, when you have someone who has been in that, that state for so long you know, where they’re either depressed or, you know, whatever the, the issue is, and they do get, like you were. They do get prescribed a antidepressant or some other medication. The way I think of that type of medication is kind of like if you were to break your leg, you get a cast on that leg.
The cast is not a.
Susannah Stokes: Yes. [00:38:00] I
Scott DeLuzio: A permanent solution, right? It’s, it’s allowing your body to heal for that temporary
period that you have that cast on, and then, then you take it off and you don’t need it anymore. Right? And so, you know, with, in a lot of cases there are people who need that, that break that reprieve from whatever it is that they’ve been going through so that they can just take a minute and breathe and be like, okay.
Let’s figure this stuff out, because sometimes when you’re in it, it’s like you’re, you feel like you’re drowning almost, and, and it’s like you, you just can’t see a way out of it. And if you can just give yourself that, that little bit of a break just for, you know, a temporary, you know, period, you know, maybe a few months or something like that to, until you, you’re able to work through that, then, you know.
Great. And, and you know, the way I I see it is, it, it’s not meant to be a long-term solution, it’s just kind of meant to kind of. Give you a little bit of relief for that, that short time period so you can work through it.
Susannah Stokes: [00:39:00] reprieve. Yes. I think that’s a beautiful way, yeah. Pain reliever. It is a a structure within which. You then have the ability to start to regenerate. One of the big challenges with most of our medications is they then lend themselves to addictive tendencies because our whole culture is based on addiction and getting you addicted to things, whether it be Netflix or Instagram, or a substance or alcohol, or you know, any of these, these things that then distract us outside of ourselves. So these medications often carry a similar energy. it becomes very difficult to wean off of them. And Al also, our clinicians are not often trained to encourage people to wean off of them when the cast is complete. So just like a doc, you know, a doctor, a surgeon would be like, okay, so we’re gonna put the cast on and then we’re gonna take the cast off at this time, then we’re gonna put this kind of cast on.
And there’s a whole off-boarding completion process [00:40:00]
for the setting of the bone and the reconstruction of your leg. Right.
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Susannah Stokes: But with, with antidepressants, it’s a, it’s a life sentence. And that is the energy that we, that we approach with it because we think, oh, there’s, well, there’s, you’re just gonna be stuck like this forever and this is how you’re gonna be. And we know now that that is not true. That is that there is absolutely. You know, a, a, a light at the end of the tunnel, there is a rainbow and, and gold at the end of that rainbow, like there is the elixir of life is waiting for you. And we do need to have proper off-boarding processes and weaning processes. But one thing that we do in our. Work is our, our microdosing protocols are, are very specifically designed for particular ailments in society, and one of them is designed for weaning off of antidepressants and other pharmaceutical [00:41:00] medications. So we have gathered. You know, all the scientific research that has been out there, as well as our own anecdotal experience of, of doing it ourselves.
Many of our facilitators have weaned off of My own sister, my mother, family members, like all of these humans around me. Have have gone through their battles with, with these, and I have gone through with even
like functional alcoholism because the military is basically a
a house for functional alcoholism.
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Susannah Stokes: so, so all of us know some version of AIC addiction and and so we’ve built protocols specifically for
that so that people can learn how to
wean
off.
Scott DeLuzio: And that’s an interesting way to look at it too, because I, I never really thought of it this way, but you know, the medication that you might be taking could be causing some sort of traumatic response as well with, within you [00:42:00] because,
Susannah Stokes: Yes.
Scott DeLuzio: know, especially if you become dependent on it and you’re, you’re kind of hooked on it now.
Now it’s time to stop taking it. And then all of a sudden you’re like, whoa, whoa, wait. No, don’t take that away. I, I kind of need that. Like, let’s just bring that back a little bit, you know? And so
yeah, there, there might be need to be some rewiring there as well so that, that that can,
You know, successfully be you know, weaned off of and.
Susannah Stokes: and I would also add in terms of traumatic, you know, adding to the trauma is that pharmaceuticals cause a blunting of emotions, which we think
of as a blunting of the negative emotions, but it’s a blunting of.
The, the happy emotions as well.
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Susannah Stokes: it’s your entire emotional experience is now reduced to this, this small little window of emotion.
And the physical human body is an animal system that needs to be able to primally express itself. And so then those emotions just once again build up, build up, build up and create more and more discomfort. And then when we’re looking at [00:43:00] other sort of hyper regulatory medications like Adderall people end up experiencing.
With all of these tachyphylaxis, which is where you have to take
more over time to get the same result,
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Susannah Stokes: you’re putting more chemicals in your body. And ultimately then the weaning process from Adderall takes years because because your body, body is so dependent on that, that it does not know how to operate without it. And so we, at metamorphosis, although we, we deeply
believe in and and support plant medicine. Our vision is
sobriety. Total sobriety. from all things
Scott DeLuzio: Mm-hmm.
Susannah Stokes: like breath
and
spring water
should be your drug
Scott DeLuzio: Sure. Sure. Yeah. And,
Susannah Stokes: are the spice of life.
Scott DeLuzio: and, and that’s, I, I think the goal really for
For anybody really should be that is, is to not require those types of medications, whether it’s you know, a psychedelic, whether it’s a antidepressant, whether it’s, whatever it is your [00:44:00] body has, makes a lot of. Good stuff on its own.
And,
Susannah Stokes: Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: you should be able to, you know, rely on that. You know, now granted there are, there are exceptions. There’s people who have things that are, that don’t quite fire off the way they, they should or whatever. And so I don’t want to get, you know, angry emails off of, you know, any of that kind of stuff.
But, you know, so I understand that that. That may not be a hundred percent possible for everybody, but you know, there are, there are so many medications out there that, that people end up taking, like you said, they, they end up just sticking on them because it’s easier to stay on than it is to come off and,
Susannah Stokes: Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: you know, so, so how do you, you go off of that, right?
And so, you know, but when you combine something like you know, psychedelics or, you know, you know that, that type of treatment, that being done in conjunction with some sort of more traditional therapy likely will help probably, and, and correct me if I’m wrong here, but will help you kind of rewire some of those connections a little bit better, right?
Susannah Stokes: Scott, you’re nailing it.
Yes, [00:45:00] that is,
Scott DeLuzio: I.
Susannah Stokes: that is precisely both the, the. The possibility of the psychedelic industry. And right now it’s sort of worst nightmare because right now there’s almost everything is underground and, and so most people will go in for a macro experience and they will work just with the medicine. will expect this pill to change everything for them or this, this mushroom, right? And they will expect to take it. And then everything changes. And what we are teaching at Metamorphosis is that it’s all in the integration. It’s a step by step process. And the only way that we do that is with. Other integrative techniques that often are involving many other layers of your being.
So we believe in the three planes of existence, the physical, the mental, and the spiritual. And for us, the mental plane is actually based in the heart, [00:46:00] mind, not the brain mind. and that heart mind is the whole emotional body as well as the intellectual body. that requires us to do things like traditional therapy, talk therapy, cognitive therapy, EMDR. And what we’re seeing in, in our community are these groundbreaking techniques where we combine things like five M-E-O-D-M-T, which is an animal medicine from the Sonoran de Desert Toad. Called bufo in connection with, and in combination with things like internal family systems, which is a parts work cognitive therapy process in which we go deep into our exiled parts, and then we bring them up and with the added layer. Of an experience, like a microdose experience with five M-E-O-D-M-T, we can get so much deeper into the, into your being. You can actually go to those places of those small child [00:47:00] parts that have been exiled for decades and you can have full conversations and healings with them. And what that does is it ripples through your whole being and then you no longer are acting from that exiled child part. Which is usually when you think of an exiled child part, imagine a little child that’s been left in a room, a toddler, a 2-year-old, or a 1-year-old that’s been left in a
room for a very
long time.
What are they gonna start acting
like? Like, like an animal,
Scott DeLuzio: Sure. Yeah. It’s not gonna be
pretty. No.
Susannah Stokes: It would not be pretty, it would be poop everywhere.
It
would be like a, just a disaster.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
Susannah Stokes: they would start to get really angry and then they would also go into a fear state. So that’s the amygdala and, and basically we have these little parts of ourselves. So this is just one of the techniques that we’re, that we’re seeing now is possible. But but all of our work involves. Integrative, cognitive, emotional, [00:48:00] therapeutic techniques along with the medication or the me, the, excuse me, the medicine, the sacrament, and the weaning off of medication. Which that whole process creates complete, complete rebirths, complete changes in people, which is. what I wanna see, because not only was it true for myself, but this work saved my sister’s life when she was on the verge of, of committing suicide.
And of course, so many of our veterans experienced that same thing. And witnessing
that that was
yeah, heartwarming to me.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, no, absolutely. And.
You know, when I started this show I kind of mentioned this a little bit earlier, is I, I, I want to provide these options and, and these resources and these tools that, that are available. And for the longest time, I avoided talking about psychedelics at all largely because. I know, you know, legalities with, you know, certain types of medications you know, especially here in the [00:49:00] us it’s, it’s not always you know, legal to, to use all these things.
And I, last thing I wanted to do is have anyone get in trouble for doing what they’re, they’re doing to get the, the help that they need. Because that just now, now they’re dealing with the legal system and that’s just causing a whole
host of other issues. But
there are, you know, things that are, are taking place now where, where certain psychedelic type.
Medications are you know, be becoming you know, more and more readily available. And, and, and there are people like yourself who are helping people use them, you know, safely and in, in the right way. And you know, so you’re not just. Using it on your own and hoping for the best. And you know what I mean?
Like it’s, you’re just rolling the dice at that point. And that’s, that’s not, that’s not a great way to, to look at it. But, you know, using, using it in a way that is you know, done responsibly. There, there’s many options out there. And, and of course, you know. Look into the legalities of things where you are and everything like that.
And I like, I, I’m putting that [00:50:00] general disclaimer out there ’cause I don’t want people getting in trouble, but
Yeah, exactly. But,
But I also felt like, eventually I started feeling like I’m, I’m doing a disservice to, to folks because I’m talking about all these other options and there. There are other options that I’m just not talking about.
’cause I hadn’t really discussed psychedelics at all. Up until just, you know, a couple months ago, I, I started you know, introducing the this as, as a topic you know, on the show. And, and I, I think, I think by, by talking about it and, and at least just giving people information about it, letting people know that it exists.
That it’s, it’s something that they could explore if they, they feel like that. They’ve tried everything and nothing seems to be working for them. Well, maybe there’s, there’s something else. And, and like you said with your sister and, you know, all these other veterans that we, we lose every day you know, there, there’s there.
If there’s an option out there that, that can help keep you here till tomorrow and the next day and the day after that, then why not explore it, you know? Yeah. Maybe. It seems like all, all hope is lost [00:51:00] right now that. Yeah, things are tough, things are, are difficult and doesn’t seem like there’s any way that it can get any better for you, but it doesn’t mean that that’s true.
You know, be open to that possibility that maybe there’s something out there that can help you and you know it. And, and that’s, that’s why I felt like, you know, having someone like yourself come on the show who can talk about this and, and share you know, a little bit about what this, this whole journey might look like and you know, what, what people can expect from it.
And you know, I’m, I’m sure there’s. Many other questions that people are, are gonna have. And I’d love to give you the opportunity right now to share a little bit about you know, your, your company and where people can go to find out more information about what you guys do and where they, where they can where they can get in touch.
Susannah Stokes: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you for trusting yourself and your wisdom and your intuition. That is, that is the thing that I believe deeply in and, and I know to be our ability to now be free when we, when we trust ourselves and, and be [00:52:00] in self
authority. And no matter what the, the social
construct is around the thing.
Scott DeLuzio: Sure.
Susannah Stokes: What I’ll say about our company on this same, the same tangent. Both my parents are attorneys. So when I came to them after being, going to the Naval Academy and being an officer in the Marine Corps and being a, you know, working in tech and all the, you know, things I was
supposed to do they were like,
you wanna do what with what?
Scott DeLuzio: What do, those hippies over at Facebook get you doing?
Susannah Stokes: what happened to you? And, and they said, okay, well if you know, and they, luckily I have parents that are very trusting and they said and they said, okay, well how are you gonna make it legal? how does this work get protected? Because the people that you’re bringing, you want to protect them as well.
And I said, you’re exactly right. I
Scott DeLuzio: Right.
Susannah Stokes: So House of Metamorphosis is our, so metamorphosis overall is an eco verse of, of organizations. We have multiple organizations within [00:53:00] and under the. Of of, of the name metamorphosis and one of them is called House of Metamorphosis, which is our 5 0 8 C one a, which is a faith-based organization that is centered around the sacrament of plant medicine.
And we have various types of plant medicine that we work with our sort of signature in our c. Grown medicine is called Trinity, and it is a, a sub genetic blend of three strains of psilocybin mushroom. And whenever we engage with it, it is in whole form and people can access it in micro form, in capsule form, which is just the ground mushroom in capsules. all of that is legally protected under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993, which is a federal act.
And
And we could go into all the details of that, but basically, house of Metamorphosis allows you
Scott DeLuzio: And.
Susannah Stokes: to come to our containers, our live events. As well as one-on-one [00:54:00] events with our, with our certified facilitators. And to engage with our microdosing protocols in your own home in an ethical and legal manner when you become a virtual member of our community. So. So that was something that was really critical for me. And then and then also in Metamorphosis Venture, which is our business side of the organization, our, our for-profit side. We offer coaching programs. We have a full initiation program for leaders and also for facilitators and servers. this year our big live event that I would love for people to join us for is called Fest. We do it at least right now. We’ve been doing it every two years. This one’s gonna be really big and beautiful and magnificent. You’re actually catching me right after I, I
did a site visit at the venue. So, the venue is magnificent. It’s up in Yosemite and it’s sort of like an outdoor conference slash. Festival summit [00:55:00] experience where we will have everything from beautiful, magnificent healers to ritual performances, music and of course just communing with people as well as a microdosing ceremony for everyone who, who would like to participate. So all of those are, are protected and and really what we are about is community. We wanna bring people together because we also know that mirror neurons are a big thing. So when you are being mirrored in your process and also being supported by people who are like-minded and like-hearted, you progress faster and
you
kind of through osmosis learn from
all these people around you.
And we bring together.
Scott DeLuzio: together.
Susannah Stokes: What we would call new earth leaders, entrepreneurs, visionaries, the workers, the healers who want to help create this, this new reality that accepts plant medicine as a [00:56:00] powerful tool of healing and activation. come to manifest. If you wanna join us, you can also visit us at Metamorphosis Global Online and we, and then join our newsletter because right now, that’s the safest place for us to continue to share this information with you.
Social media is a little iffy sometimes, so we haven’t fully built that out. Even though I’ve, I’ve worked at Instagram and Facebook. I love it. I love
those platforms. But right now they are not yet
ready for the psychedelic. Movement.
Scott DeLuzio: Sure, sure. Yeah. And I, I, I
fully expect that things like that are tough to promote on, on those types of platforms. So,
Susannah Stokes: Yeah.
Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.
email is probably the. The best way to go. And it’s always good, you know, just from a, a business perspective to own your own platform. You know, as far as where you know, everything from your, your website to your email list, to all the, the things that are part of your business.
Don’t rely on Facebook being there tomorrow because it’s a company like any other, and they, it could disappear too, [00:57:00] as, as much as it might seem.
You know, out of the realm of possibility. I mean, I, I’m old enough to remember you know, MySpace and, you know, those, those type GeoCities and all these other things that
Susannah Stokes: Yep.
Scott DeLuzio: they’re not, like
Susannah Stokes: end
Scott DeLuzio: they, they can go away.
Susannah Stokes: is a
real thing, like all
Scott DeLuzio: Exactly.
Susannah Stokes: It’s, it’s, it is outsourcing to an external authority in some ways. So, so we aim to be able to have a more, and, and actually it’s, it’s kind of pushed us into having a more authentic person to person. Relationship with people and to build community in a
new way. And we also have a discord which I’ll share so
that you’ll be able to join that, that’s a channel
Scott DeLuzio: Okay.
Susannah Stokes: That, has all sorts of different resources in it, and we’d love for you to
join that and get to know our community better.
Scott DeLuzio: Excellent. Yeah. And so we’ll put those links in the show notes for the listeners to,
Check out if they’re interested and want to find out more about what you do or, you know, attend any of the upcoming events or anything like that. Get on the email list. All those links will be there for you. So, so check that out.
[00:58:00] Susanna, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really do appreciate, you coming on sharing your story and sharing the work that you do and for, and for the work that you do because you know, I, I think it’s, it’s important that, that folks have options and you know, this is, this is another one of those options that I think you know, a lot of times gets overlooked.
So, so thanks so much.
Susannah Stokes: Thank you Scott. Thanks for creating this space. I appreciate you.