Episode 541 Dr. Leah Kaylor Why Veterans Struggle To Sleep Transcript

This transcript is from episode 541 with guest Dr. Leah Kaylor.

Scott DeLuzio: [00:00:00] If you’ve ever laid awake at night, staring at the ceiling, wishing your mind and body would just shut down, you’re not alone. A lot of us, especially those who’ve carried the weight of deployments, the battlefield doesn’t always just stay overseas. It shows up in the form of nightmares, restless nights and crushing fatigue the next morning.

And somehow, deep down, we know how different life feels when we actually get some really. Good sleep. We have more focus. We are, we’re more patient with our kids and our family. We have more energy to push through the day. Forgive the pun, but that’s the dream. Dr. Leah Kaler, our guest today has spent years helping veterans first responders FBI agents at her current role at the FBI, understand the science of sleep and reclaim their nights.

In this episode, she’s gonna share some practical fixes, some small doable steps that you can start today that can change the way you rest and recover. Before we get [00:01:00] into the episode though, I do wanna take a moment to raise awareness for something that’s deeply important to our community. The Global War On Terrorism Memorial Foundation.

This organization is working to build a permanent national memorial in Washington DC to honor the service members, families, and civilians who are impacted by the global war on terrorism. This memorial will serve as both a tribute to those who served and a way to ensure that their sacrifices are recognized and remembered for generations to come.

So if you’d like to learn more or find out how you can support the mission, visit GWOT memorial foundation.org. Now, let’s get into today’s episode.

Scott DeLuzio: Hey, Dr. Leah uh, welcome to the show. Really glad to have you here. It’s honor.

Dr. Leah Kaylor: Thanks for having me. I’m super excited to chat today.

Scott DeLuzio: today. Yeah, absolutely.

Before we get into, you know, kind of your whole story and, all the [00:02:00] stuff that we’re gonna talk about as far as uh, sleep issues and, and some of the challenges that a of folks have can you give us a little rundown of are, a little bit about yourself, your background and, and things like that?

Just so, uh, the listeners have an idea who they’re, uh, to here.

Dr. Leah Kaylor: Yeah, absolutely. So My name is Dr. Leah Kaylor. I’m a licensed clinical psychologist and a prescribing psychologist. And for the past five, going on six years now, I’ve been the FBI sleep expert. So I’m a psychologist. My specialties are trauma and sleep, and I also prescribe medications. But uh, little did I know that. So many people struggle with sleep and there’s such a huge appetite for that. And so I’ve very quickly made a name for myself and that’s what I’ve been really focusing on and helping people uh, within the Bureau for the past several years. So much so that there’s been push because there’s just simply not enough hours in the day for me to help everyone who needs sleep assistance.

That I wrote a book about it and it’s called If Sleep Were a Drug. So I’m very, very excited about it. And. It should be available now [00:03:00] for purchase.

Scott DeLuzio: Excellent, excellent. And that’s,

that’s, actually um, first off a incredible if sleep Were a Drug and I, I, I think it would be

Dr. Leah Kaylor: nervous about it,

Scott DeLuzio: it it would actually be very appropriate because I, you know, the difference between nights when you get a, a great night’s sleep and the nights that you get a terrible night’s sleep is, is, well, excuse pun.

It’s literally night and day of the, of a

Dr. Leah Kaylor: I love that

pun. Yes

Scott DeLuzio: you know, but it. it’s such a, a huge difference, you know, as if you took your medication or didn’t take your medication for whatever the issue is that you might be dealing with. And so, you know, those, those sleep issues people have you know, especially in like, you know, law enforcement, the FBI military and, and things like where you need to be of your game.

Pretty much all the time. Well, you’re not going to be, if you’re

Dr. Leah Kaylor: be,

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, exactly. Right.

Um, so Sleep and some of the, the common issues that you see and uh, you know, I know the, the show is mostly focused veterans, and I know [00:04:00] you, you work with the FBI, but gotta imagine with the, the trauma those agents face and, and some of the veterans faced.

There’s gotta be some crossover, some parallels that, that go on there. So, uh, which is why I want to have you on the show, I I figured there’s, there’s, a lot of crossover there and, and so how these issues might. Might differ maybe even from general population versus some, someone who experiences more of these traumatic things more frequently in their, their occupation

Dr. Leah Kaylor: Well, let me pull, pull. The first surprise outta my bag is that actually before I worked for the FBII was at the Memphis VA Medical Center. So I do have experience with veterans and I was actually in the sleep clinic there. So that’s how it all got started was um, I was on my residency year of doctorate, and that is kind of the year in which you go do lots of different rotations, get.

A lot of experience before they put you out into the world to practice on your own. And you know, I had a couple of ideas about the rotations that I wanted, but I ended up with one of my many rotations being the sleep clinic. And I, you know, I [00:05:00] wish I could go back in time And I, wish I could remember if this was one of the ones that I actually wanted.

’cause there were two that I definitely had my heart set on and the sleep clinic was not one, but I, I was probably open to it and I ended up there and I just had. Such an eye-opening experience to see how many people were struggling with sleep and when I was at the va. I was working with veterans in active duty, but a lot of my population, for whatever reason, was Vietnam veterans.

I don’t know if it was like the time that I was there or just the, the area in which I was located, which was Memphis, but I had a lot of Vietnam veterans who were on my caseload, and so as I was working with folks. One-on-one. And then also in groups I was doing just general sleep hygiene. So just teaching people basically how to sleep, like all the things that you never learned.

And what I like to say is a lot of ways that we get in our own way when it comes to sleep, because inevitably we’re just very good at that. I learned all about treating lot of people do not know, but. When it comes to nightmares [00:06:00] that are repetitive, we’re actually very good at treating those.

And I think a lot of people just have no clue about that. So I think that’s really important for us to touch upon. And then obstructive sleep apnea. So I would leave classes on how to wear your CPAP mask, because that can be really claustrophobic and anxiety provoking for some people, especially if you have any type of trauma in your past with, you know, having something on your face.

So those were the few things that I. Like kind of just, were very, very eye-opening for me. And as I’m teaching these sleep hygiene courses, I have people literally falling asleep on me.

And you know, it kind of is what it is. And it speaks to the sleep deprivation magnitude that we are experiencing. And so I basically went from the VA to the FBI, and I’ve, like I said, I’ve been there full time now going on my sixth year.

And when I started there, they knew that they were getting a psychologist, but.

Scott DeLuzio: but

Dr. Leah Kaylor: Was kind of it. And so my supervisor at the time had asked me, okay, Leah, so what’s gonna be your thing? And I said, well, [00:07:00] I don’t know. You know, trauma’s a specialty and that’s wonderful. But a lot of times in my day-to-day life, you know, people will be like, oh, what do you do?

And I, I say, I’m a psychologist. And then, you know, people kind of immediately just wanna like turn around and walk away because they’re like, I’m kind, you know, I’m worried that you’re gonna analyze me. I’m worried that you’re gonna, you know, write your dissertation on me. Okay. Just a public service announcement. We do not wanna do that. I wrote one dissertation. No thank you. We’re not writing another one. So for those of you who meet a psychologist out in public, like we’re perfectly fine. We are normal people. You can have conversations with us. But that is something that I experience in my day-to-day life, let alone just stigma whenever it comes to mental health, let alone, you know, adding on the layer of law enforcement, adding on the layer of I work for the FBI, like my office is.

Embedded in the office And so people have fears about losing their gun or their badge or their clearance and you know, when they really shouldn’t because we are a resource for folks. That’s why we are in house. So I would say that what I decided to do when my supervisor had asked me, okay Leah, so what’s gonna be your thing?

I decided to do [00:08:00] this sneaky, like foot in the door of, well how about I be like a sleep specialist and we talk about sleep and, and then eventually, you know, once you find out that I’m. Cool that you know, I’m not this terrifying. Psychoanalyst that you think that I am, and I’m not gonna ask you to lay down on my couch and tell me about your childhood, that you know, maybe we can have other conversations.

And that’s exactly how it panned out, was starting with lots and lots of sleep, education, letting people know, again, ways in which they’re getting in their own way. And then a lot of people deciding that they would like to work one-on-one about sleep, and then it often opening up into untreated anxiety, depression, trauma, whatnot.

That’s kind of this vicious cycle of fueling. Poor, poor mental health, poor sleep, poor mental health. This circle that just keeps going on and on. So I’m not

sure if I even answered your question.

Scott DeLuzio: Well, no. So what, what we’re, we’re talking about just, you know, some of the you know, kind of background and, some of the, the challenges that, that a lot of folks [00:09:00] might face um, that. Uh, you know, as far as the, uh, the sleep that, that they, they may encountering. And, and from your experience, and, and you mentioned that you, you worked for the VA for a period of time.

Now, the FBI I imagine there’s some, some crossover, similarities from things who, things from people who experienced traumas. And whether it’s an agent or a soldier on a battlefield, they’ve experienced some sort of traumas, likely and very likely. I I would imagine it’s common that it’s affecting their sleep in, in one way or another.

Is that that kind of a, a good generalization?

Dr. Leah Kaylor: Oh, 100%. And I would say that, that’s kind of what I was alluding to. Earlier when I said this, like, cycle of poor sleep leads to poor mental health. Poor mental health leads to more poor sleep. And that’s also, you know, probably why I learned how to treat nightmares there was because that is a big problem, whether it’s veterans or whether it’s first responders, you know, that is a treatment that I have continued to use within the FBI as well is the, what’s imagery, rehearsal therapy.

And that’s for nightmares. I would say [00:10:00] there’s a ton of overlap between the two, especially because a lot of people are. They have a service background first, and then a lot of times they come to law enforcement later. So I would say that I think that there’s just so much overlap and just because your time and service maybe ends, it doesn’t mean that those experiences and those psychological.

Landmarks that is left don’t leave you. They certainly stick with you and they’re a part of your story. So I would say that one thing that I would say is the VA and law enforcement, and this is just based on anecdotal experience and the people who have walked into my office, I would see a lot more sleep avoidance within my veterans of trying to stay awake as long as possible because going to sleep is very scary.

It’s very vulnerable knowing that the nightmares are likely you. So I would. I’m telling you what, I would have folks who would stay up and I’m not sure how they were functioning on just a few hours of rest, and it’s not because they didn’t have the ability or the opportunity to rest. It wasn’t like that.

[00:11:00] It was, I am so scared to go to sleep that I am going to do whatever I can in my power to stay awake and eventually sleep will come for you whether you like it or not. But I would say that that was one big difference between the VA and the.

Whenever I’m working with FBI, it’s people who are currently agents, professional staff, joint task force officers, so some of my veterans could maybe afford to do that versus some of the people who are currently expected to show up for work every single day and like we just talked about, be at your peak performance or as close to that as you possibly

can be.

Scott DeLuzio: Right. And I, I’ve talked to other folks too who have had that sim similar issue that, that you were talking about. Like, I don’t wanna go to sleep because if I do, those nightmares are gonna be there and if I can stay awake, those nightmares, I can, I can keep them away by just staying awake or, or just taking, you know, short, short nap kind of things. Like just, just a couple hours here and there. Not enough to get really into that deep REM sleep where maybe the, the dreams and the [00:12:00] nightmares are gonna be coming back. But if I can just, just get. A little bit, just enough to get by and then then I don’t in.

But, you know, think about all the

that that’s affecting. It’s, it’s really it. And, you’re, you’re more the expert on this than, than I would, than I would ever be. Um, I’ve never even claimed to be. an expert on this, but, but if you get the, the good full night’s sleep, you know, on a regular basis, I imagine that the.

Trauma that is left unprocessed in your brain is still not really processed fully. Like you, you kind of need the sleep to be able to process it. Is that kind of how that works?

Dr. Leah Kaylor: You are hitting the Nail. on the head. Absolutely. And that’s why it’s this vicious circle that I talked about earlier. So what should be happening in a normal, average, healthy sleeper is that we are going to be cycling through light sleep. Deep sleep and REM sleep. And we’ve probably all heard these mentioned before, but chances are we probably don’t actually know what’s happening during those or why they’re important or why they’re differentiated or categorized as such.

[00:13:00] So to answer your specific question, during REM sleep and specifically during REM dream sleep, the brain kind of goes through overnight therapy, if you will. So for our normal, average healthy sleeper, the person’s. Level of noradrenaline, and that is just adrenaline within the brain. Should be virtually zero.

It should be extremely low, and this is. Very cool. The only time in which we can kind of guarantee that this happens for the brain and for the body because the rest of the time, you know, our phone is pinging or you know, we’re, we’re driving to work or we’re about to go into a meeting with our boss, or whatever the case may be.

And so, you know, our cortisol And our adrenaline are fluctuating all over the place. But for a normal, average, healthy sleeper during REM sleep, that noradrenaline should be basically at a zero, and that is when the brain acts as this very skilled mental health professional, and it brings up things [00:14:00] that are traumatic, that are painful, that we need to process through during this time.

When those. Hormones and chemicals are virtually zero so that we can work through them. And then what it’s working to do is to process it, to put it in the memory filing cabinet where it belongs. Because sometimes if you think about trauma and you get a trigger, perhaps it kind of brings you right back to that very moment and you, you feel like you are living it like no time has passed.

You are right back in that, in that spot. And so what should be one of the many things that should be happening is it’s kind of temporal length. Figuring out where that it needs to go in our existing neural networks. And it’s also trying to pull out the sting of that memory of that event because we can’t, as much as people would like to.

Have memories erased. We just don’t have any type of technology like that. However, what we can do is that is still a part of who you are. That’s still a part of your [00:15:00] story, but what we can try and do with the REM sleep dreaming is to pull out some of that sting so that it’s still a part of you. It’s still a part of your story, but maybe you can continue to move forward in a more resilient way.

So when we aren’t giving our opportunity to sleep or you know, like we talked about those folks who are just trying to get by on like a nap here, A nap there, just enough to literally survive. Yeah. The brain isn’t getting a chance to, to process through. And that’s also how we end up with nightmares too.

So the brain hates things that are unfinished. So whenever its job is to process these things that are traumatic, that are painful, that are upsetting for us.

Scott DeLuzio: us.

Dr. Leah Kaylor: We’re not getting the opportunity to do that, whether that’s because we’re waking up during a nightmare or our, our adrenaline and our stress and our cortisol are just way too high.

Yeah. What’s happening is that the brain is trying to do that. It’s trying to process, but the, the stress chemicals are [00:16:00] just way too high. So instead we end. Perhaps having a nightmare. And we get yanked out of sleep, And so we’re not done processing. So the next night the brain is like, oh, okay, well I hate unfinished things.

We still have to process this. Don’t forget. And the brain tries to go in again, tries to work through that. And that is how we end up with those repetitive nightmares, is the brain is working, it’s trying, it wants to process through, but our, our stress hormones are just too high to allow that

to successfully happen.

Scott DeLuzio: So until we can get the men in black level uh, mind eraser thing, I guess we need on a good night’s sleep. I, I guess that’s kind of the, the gist of what you’re, you’re saying here.

Dr. Leah Kaylor: are not super human. We need to rely on a good night’s sleep. And when that, when we talk about a good night’s sleep, and we’re talking about adults ages, like 18 to 64, that is. Anywhere from seven to nine hours of sleep per night. Because I think that there’s a lot of misconceptions about, it’s fine, I can sleep less than that.

I can function just fine. And what the research [00:17:00] tells us is that even though you’re impaired and you know, maybe we would take you into a lab and have you do various different tasks and whatnot, you may think that you’re performing just fine. But the actual objective measures tell us, oh no, you are not doing just fine.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And.

Dr. Leah Kaylor: That’s what’s kind of like a blind spot for us is that we perceptively think we’re doing just fine,

but we’re not.

Scott DeLuzio: Well, and when your baseline becomes that level of you know, I, I get a night or something, and, and that’s all I, I get, well, that’s all I can really expect of myself. If, if that’s all I’m, I’m getting, and so, yeah, of course it’s fine because it’s, it’s normal, you know, quote unquote normal because that’s just the way it’s been for however long.

And, and so.

Dr. Leah Kaylor: Yeah. level of decreased performance becomes your new

normal.

Scott DeLuzio: Correct. Correct. And so, so you come to expect that as like just the, the norm and, and you don’t, you don’t really expect much more from yourself because, well, why would you, [00:18:00] you’ve always done, you know, however much that you’ve done with that

Dr. Leah Kaylor: right, And the obvious answer isn’t then, well, I’ll sleep more because. I can boost up this n normal I can. I can make it a hell of a lot better. Instead, we’re looking in all the wrong places or for all kinds of quick fixes, and that’s why I called the book if Sleep Were a Drug. You know everybody, especially when you’re not sleeping well, all you desperately want is to sleep better. And we don’t wanna put in the work, whether that is working through trauma, whether that’s doing the nightmare therapy that I talked about earlier, imagery, rehearsal therapy, whether that is changing up your routine to maybe cut out alcohol, cut down on caffeine, have a wind down routine. We want a

quick fix.

We do.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and

Scott DeLuzio: I mean, this is the Amazon, Netflix uh, era where we, we want everything now. I, I order.

Dr. Leah Kaylor: within an hour and drop it off with a drone.

Scott DeLuzio: Exactly. You know, and and

that’s, that’s exactly what [00:19:00] we’re looking for. And so, so yeah, if, if sleep were that, where we can just get it like that, that, that’d be wonderful. But you know, it’s, it, does require a little bit of work, like you were saying.

And so I do wanna get into maybe a little bit of the, the techniques that you were talking about of what that entails. For, for the listeners, because I like to only address like what the problem is, I think people, if they’re having trouble sleeping, they, they probably know that they’re having trouble sleeping or at least somebody is letting them know, Hey, you, you sleep like crap.

And like this isn’t good. Um, you know, but, know, and so we talked impairments and some of the, the other things that, that, might be affecting you. And so there’s the, why is this even an issue? Why, why should someone care? And all that, that stuff is great, can we do about it?

And, and that’s, that’s kind of where uh, I think your expertise kind of comes in and, is something that you’ve done other folks to help them? Improve their sleep. And I know, you mentioned things like sleep. and things like that. Some of those things should be rather fixes, but sometimes people just know what to make those cha in those changes.

They don’t know what to [00:20:00] do. And so, uh, there’s also, you know different types of therapies that you mentioned as well, and, and I think those are worth kind of exploring as well. Yeah,

Dr. Leah Kaylor: Yeah, so let’s just kind of go across the spectrum here. Like there are super simple, easy, free things that you can do to improve your sleep, like starting today. And when I say today, I mean actually in the daytime. So one of the very first things, you know, I think people really think about sleep being kind of contained to the night hours, but there are tons of things that we do.

Again, my catchphrase of like getting in your own way. So I’m gonna try and walk us through like maybe a typical day and like ways that you might be getting in your own way, but also things that you can do to help yourself. So, let’s talk first and foremost, like waking up. Let’s, let’s start with the very beginning of our day. I,

and let’s start with, well, I like, here’s the first and foremost. I, I like this one a lot.

I say this all the time, and I imagine that a ton of people can relate to it, but I say if I had more hours in [00:21:00] the day,

Scott DeLuzio: day,

Dr. Leah Kaylor: I probably say that more than once a day. If I feel like if I had like a penny for every time I said that I could retire, that would be lovely.

It doesn’t work like that. I’ll keep saying it though, and I think that everybody will keep saying it. And so I, when I talk to my audiences, I’ll say, but you know what, you’re kind of a magician anyways, because somehow you do make those extra hours appear in one way or another, and people kind of like, look puzzled.

And I’m like, well, it’s because you’re cutting out on sleep is how you’re doing it. And so you can either cut out on sleep at the beginning of the night of one more chapter, one more email, let me. Let me just finish that series finale because it’s so good. Or, and this is where we’re talking about in the morning.

You could cut sleep in the morning of, I’ll just set my alarm an hour earlier and I will complete the Kids’ Science Fair project, or whatever it is that you’re working on. So when we do this, we do ourselves a disservice either way. if you’re a [00:22:00] normal, average, healthy sleeper and you don’t already have a known sleep disorder, that you should be cycling through light deep in rem.

We talked about this, you’re gonna get much more deep sleep in the beginning hours of the night. You’re gonna get your biggest chunks of REM towards the time when your alarm clock is going to go off. So either way, you slice it if you are. Cutting yourself short on sleep because you’re trying to make more hours in the day.

You’re doing yourself a massive disservice by either cutting out big chunks of deep sleep or by cutting out. Big chunks of rem. Now, we just talked about REM sleep and how important that is for processing emotional memories. You can kind of just think about it as like this emotional recalibration that’s happening at night, but it’s also just very important for memory.

It’s very important for kind of those moments, like when you think about, I’ll sleep on it, like there’s a saying for a reason because it helps us come to the next day more clear with more clarity, being able to make decisions better, being able to, this is kind of [00:23:00] where your brain takes. All the logical things, but maybe things that aren’t as logical or aren’t as obvious and kind of puts ’em all together.

And that’s how you wake up with some of those like, aha, how did I solve that problem literally in my sleep? Thank you. REM sleep. That’s what it was. So we start out in the morning by, you know, if you are not giving yourself that seven to nine hours, whatever your body uniquely needs, if you’re cutting out on sleep, well, that’s the first place that we are doing ourselves a disservice.

So we’ll start there. Then whenever it comes to waking up, I would say that this has been an absolute game changer for me. When I tell people about this and they, you know, come and see me later, or they’ve seen me at a talk, and then they come to another lecture at some point in time, they’re like, oh yeah, you were totally right.

This is, and don’t spend a ton of money on it. Like no more than $25 a sunrise alarm clock. Super simple, super easy, very cheap. You can definitely find it. You can have a drone deliver it from Amazon later today. Or you could also even get a [00:24:00] smart light bulb. You know, there’s so many of those out on the market now, and they do have features like that too. And I would say setting it like 10 minutes before you actually want to wake up, it is just so much easier to wake up so much more natural, so much less stressful for your body because. You are wired just like our caveman ancestors, to wake up when the sun rises and to go to bed when the sun sets. And that also brings me to my next point too, which is.

Within an hour of waking up, going outside. And if you have the luxury of being able to, I know some people maybe don’t, or they can only look through a window if you have the ability to go outside, that’s the, the gold standard and looking towards the sun, especially when the sun is at a low angle in the sky.

That’s gonna be your best bet because what’s happening is we’re kind of strengthening our circadian rhythm and our circadian rhythm is again, just like what we talked about, this internal biological body clock that we have that’s letting us know when it’s time to be awake and when it’s time to go to sleep.

So when we get up and [00:25:00] within that hour of waking up, expose our eyes to that natural sunlight, it’s communicating to the brain.

Scott DeLuzio: the brain

Dr. Leah Kaylor: All the way back. So it goes through the super charismatic nucleus back pineal gland, and it’s saying, Hey, it’s daylight. We don’t need any melatonin. Like, and this is also giving us this boost of energy and this boost of alertness by exposing our eyes without sunglasses to natural sun.

So that’s really helpful for us. Oftentimes people like to roll outta bed and have a coffee pot right there, brewing and ready to go. That’s not gonna be your best bet. as we wake up our adrenaline, our cortisol, good cortisol should be naturally peaking because this is what gets you up out of bed, moving and to work on time.

After about 90 minutes, then that naturally starts to drop off, and that would be the best time for you to have some caffeine. ’cause I am definitely not going to ask my first responders to cut caffeine out. I know that that is. Like pissing into the wind, that ain’t gonna [00:26:00] happen. And you don’t have to. You don’t have to.

Everyone has a different level of sensitivity. So for those of you who are sensitive, you know, you just gotta. Be more in tune with your body. However, if you’re guzzling coffee right, whenever you wake up, it’s just kind of like putting a car into overdrive. So waiting about 90 minutes is when you can get the best bang for your buck of those natural stress. they’re, they’re good stress in this context. They start to dip off and then that’s when you can have your caffeine. So that’s when to start the day. But I would say we need to have a conversation about caffeine. Right? ’cause I’m not gonna ask you to stop it. ’cause I know that this is absolutely a lifeline when it comes to first responders and it’s gonna be important of when you time it.

And we also need to talk about adenosine. We need to talk about half-life. So when it comes to our sleep drive and sleep drive, you can think of it of just. All day long. You know when, when you wake up. We can also call it sleep pressure too. Those words are interchangeable when you wake [00:27:00] up, hopefully after having a full night’s rest that your sleep pressure, your sleep drive should be very low all day long.

It should start to build and build and build and build, and then that’s what kind of causes, I like to call it the wave of sleepiness. So when you’re kind of on your couch, your eyes are starting to get heavy. You’re kind of having that. Head is too heavy to keep it held upright. That is the wave of sleepiness, but that is because you built up a sleep drive all day long.

Now, there are things that we can do to mess with that sleep drive, and one of them is caffeine. So caffeine doesn’t necessarily block your sleep drive or reduce your sleep drive, but it instead masks it. So. is that chemical that’s responsible for the sleep drive and it builds and builds and builds all day long.

But chem excuse me, caffeine adenosine bind to the same receptors. So the caffeine, once it enters your bloodstream, it’ll kick adenosine outta the way. The adenosine is still quietly building up in the background. It doesn’t go away. But for [00:28:00] then you’re, you’re feeling okay. I’m feeling more alert, I’m feeling more awake.

Let’s do this thing. So. It’s useful to a certain point, but then once we’re getting to a place where we’re having caffeine later into the day or into the evening, then that’s where we can again get in our own way. So like I mentioned, everybody is going to metabolize things differently. We may have people who are listening who are ultra raven metabolizers.

We may have people listening who are very poor metabolizers, get in touch with your body. But what I would say is if you’re struggling to fall asleep and you don’t know why. It could very well be because you’re having caffeine too late into the day. I like to tell people to cut off caffeine in the early afternoon because they don’t realize what half-life is.

So we’re just gonna do like a very quick refresher for those of you who can’t see, I am holding a thermos of coffee and. What we need to talk about whenever it comes to caffeine is, let’s just say for example, that [00:29:00] this thing is totally full. We have a full, I don’t know, we’ll, we’ll just make the math easy.

20 ounces of coffee, caffeine, something in here. And when I drink this, we’ll say at 6:00 AM I am putting all of this coffee into my body. However, it doesn’t all just leave my body all at the same time. So after six hours, so. We’ll go about halfway down the cup at noon. I still have this much caffeine rocking and rolling in my body, and that’s just from this one cup of coffee.

It’s not because I added anything more. That’s makes it a little bit more complicated. Then after another six hours, ’cause caffeine’s half life is four to six hours, so I’m gonna make the math easy for myself and I’m gonna do six. So then we get to 6:00 PM and I still have a quarter of this thermos.

Caffeine rocking and rolling into my system that I took at 6:00 AM Again, we haven’t added [00:30:00] anything more. This was all I had in one day.

You look like you wanna say something

Scott DeLuzio: No, it that, that’s a good analogy. I, I haven’t I don’t know, analogy or vi that you’re, you’re using here. Yeah. The, the visual is, is really good because, i, I, this person. I’ve actually completely cut out caffeine for myself a hundred percent. But I used to be the person who, like, when I was in Afghanistan, I actually had my wife ship me a, a coffee pot and coffee and, and all the things.

’cause I was like, I can’t go without this. like, I I just need it and.

I would drink it throughout the day and even into the evening. You know, we would, we’d be doing stuff at night and, well, you gotta stay awake. Uh, and so, you know, what am I gonna do? I’m gonna, I’ll, drink some coffee and I’ll stay awake.

But looking that, that visual of, of that, that mug going down to, you know, halfway and then, you know, 12 hours later you still got a quarter of that caffeine. And then you, you. Avoided talking about what happens if you drink a second cup, or you know, a third or a fourth, or [00:31:00] throughout the day that makes that math even more complicated.

And you know how much is left in your system at, you know, nine, 10 o’clock at night whenever it is that you’re trying to go to bed and. You, you’re, you’re all amped up on, on all this caffeine and you don’t even realize it ’cause you’re like, oh, I, I drank that 12 hours ago. Well, it kind of doesn’t matter ’cause it, some of it is still there.

And one of the, the things that you, you’re saying is that the, the kind of masks the, the sleepiness that you might be feeling and.

Dr. Leah Kaylor: is very dangerous.

Scott DeLuzio: I was feeling like that, that’s kind of the same idea as like a, a pain reliever. If you, if you have some sort of pain, the, the source of the pain hasn’t gone away just ’cause you took some Advil or, or morphine or, you know, whatever.

The source of the pain isn’t gone. It, it’s still there. It’s just you don’t feel it anymore or, or not as

Dr. Leah Kaylor: of bought ourselves some time a little

Scott DeLuzio: Right. Right. And you know, in, in, in a way that’s good. You know, if you’re, if it we’re talking about pain, you’re having some intense [00:32:00] pain, well, yeah, of course. You don’t wanna be in intense pain.

The, the whole purpose of you feeling the pain is to let you know that there’s something wrong. It’s like, okay, message received. I got that. You know, I, I know, but. This is almost like the, the opposite though, because you’re taking the, the quote unquote pain reliever before you’re even having the pain. Um, you know, you’re, you’re taking the, the caffeine before you get sleepy, and so then you don’t even realize when you’re actually sleepy.

Maybe. Is that

Dr. Leah Kaylor: right Oh, 100%, right. Like I would have people come into my office all the time and be like, yeah, I can drink a pot of coffee with dinner, and I’m not, it doesn’t affect me at all. And I’m like, but you’re still in my office.

You know, and, but here’s the thing, right? Like caffeine is very sneaky and it’s very insidious.

And I, as I was doing research for the book, I, I didn’t know this, there are some waters out there that kind of talk, they call themselves like enhanced waters that have caffeine in them. Like, blows me away. So, you know, I, I think that we have like our obvious sources of [00:33:00] caffeine whenever it comes to coffee, whatever kind you name it, cold brew.

But then. Obviously energy drinks fall into that category and like your sodas, but pre-workout, dang. You know, obviously a lot of first responders are trying to keep in shape as much as they possibly can because your body is one of your many tools and when it comes to pre-workout, holy cow, like one scoop of that stuff is worth like several cups of coffee.

And again, when I’m talking to my first responders and my agents. They’ll tell me, well, the only time, you know, I work a full day and then I, you know, get home and I have to take care of my kids. But then I’m also training for an Ironman. So I start my workout at 9:00 PM and I’m working out until like 10, 11.

Well, you’re also having a scoop of pre-workout before that workout too, so Yeah. No wonder that you’re so freaking amped that

you can’t fall asleep.

Scott DeLuzio: Right. That, and that, that makes sense. So like if they take that pre-workout based on your description before, [00:34:00] and they nine o’clock in the, the evening, they still have half that caffeine in their body by three o’clock in the morning. And good luck trying to sleep with that much caffeine in your, in your system.

Dr. Leah Kaylor: Right. We’re, we’re just doing ourselves such a disservice.

Scott DeLuzio: Right, and, and it’s.

S just like you were saying before, we get in our own way. And I think we do that with a lot of things. You know, we we’re, we’re our own worst enemies in a lot of cases. And sometimes we just don’t realize it. Like that person who drinks a pot of coffee at dinner and Oh no, I’m fine. Well, no, you’re. You’re actually not, you may not realize that you’re not fine. This may just be your normal because you’re used to it. Kinda like what we were talking before. But it. that you’re fine. You, you probably are very severely impaired with, you know, your, the lack of sleep that you’re getting and all that kind of stuff.

And so, you know, that’s, I, I think that’s like one simple fix that that can be done is just pay attention to your caffeine intake. And I know for me, like when I stopped drinking coffee, ’cause I was like. I, I was all the time drinking [00:35:00] coffee, and it was, it was hard to stop drinking because the headaches that you end up with and, and stuff like that.

But for me, the, my reason for wanting to stop is I didn’t want to get to a point where I’m like, so I. Hooked on something that if I don’t have it, I feel it physically. Like I feel physical pain when I don’t have the coffee. So I was like, this, this is stupid. I don’t need it? I can wake up and not have it and I’ll be just fine.

And, you know,

Dr. Leah Kaylor: And are you just fine?

Scott DeLuzio: I am. Yeah. And so for the listeners who are like, I could never do that. Well,

Dr. Leah Kaylor: either.

Scott DeLuzio: yeah. You know, so.

Dr. Leah Kaylor: right here.

Scott DeLuzio: Exactly, yes, You could do it. And I, I used to be the kind of person who, I literally had my wife send me a coffee pot to Afghanistan so I could have coffee. It, yeah. I didn’t care if it was 120 degrees outside.

I was still having my hot coffee every day because I, I just needed it. And, and the energy drinks, the rip pits and all the other things, I, I was having those too. And like I, I felt like I needed it. And I was that same kind of [00:36:00] person where I was like, no, I, I need to have this. No,

Dr. Leah Kaylor: about your poor cardiovascular system too. We didn’t even touch on that.

Scott DeLuzio: That, that. that’s a whole nother, that’s probably a whole nother, episode. Uh, you know, talking about all, all the o other effects that, that go on with that. But But so there, there’s. there’s. this, the, the caffeine side of things. There’s, I’m sure there’s things that you can in, in your bedroom too, like you mentioned like the, the sunrise, the alarm clock too, to kind of, it’s a little bit less abrupt than maybe a screeching alarm clock.

And, and it’s probably not going to, you know, jolt you out out of uh, sleep so quickly. And it’s a little bit better for, for you to wake up that way. But also things like. Blackout curtains, not looking at your phone before going to bed. And, you know, all, all of those kind of things I think are, are, are things that we, we do, maybe we even know we’re not supposed to do, but we do it anyways.

And then we wonder why can’t I sleep? You know? And so th all um, easy fixes. Like you things tonight and, and really just get, [00:37:00] or, or today you can get started and, and get on your way to. A, a better night’s sleep. Now it doesn’t mean that tonight is going to be the greatest night’s sleep of your life.

This is something that probably takes time, right?

Dr. Leah Kaylor: So I start the book with, um, I say like, there’s a few things we need And the first thing I say is, good sleep will not happen overnight and like pun intended, it, it will not happen overnight. I can give you so many tips, tricks, and tools, but if you’ve been sleeping poorly for days, weeks, months, years, decades, think about how many, like bad habits, but like associations.

The brain then has with. Sleep and like just good sleep isn’t going to come or laying in bed and tossing and turning and feeling frustrated, so it will takt time to basically rewire. Your brain rewire these new habits and yeah, so that is one of the first things that I say in the book. And then one of the second things that I say is, you don’t know what you don’t know.

So for those of you who are maybe kicking yourself about the caffeine, because [00:38:00] now you have an understanding, you don’t know what you don’t know, and that’s kind of what my mission is, to explain the science behind why these things may be.

How you’re getting in your own way. And I think it’s important to just touch upon this and then we’ll, we’ll go wherever you wanna go.

But when it comes to the caffeine and being so incredibly amped, well, we gotta bring it back down. well, how are we gonna bring it back down with the world’s most favorite quote I’m using quotes, sleep aid, alcohol.

Scott DeLuzio: Hmm.

Dr. Leah Kaylor: how we’re gonna do it, especially in our first responder population because alcohol is a sedative.

But I think it’s very important that I tell you this, that. The sleep, quote unquote, that you’re getting from alcohol is not the same type and high quality that you would be getting without alcohol. Because alcohol is a sedative, it’s gonna slow down. The communication between neurons, it is going to put you into kind of like a form of like light sedation, if you will, but the sleep that we’re [00:39:00] getting there is just not very good quality.

So you are. We talked about REM sleep, and again, we’re, we’re just circling back ’cause everything’s connected and how important REM sleep is for that emotional recalibration for the emotional processing. Well, surprisingly enough, alcohol is one of the most powerful suppressors of REM

sleep.

Scott DeLuzio: So, so you never even get there with, with that as, as much as, as much as you might think you, you slept and, and let’s just face it, you’re probably more passed out than, than actually sleeping, right? And then, then the next morning you’re waking and you’re. Hungover, you’re groggy, you’re, you’re, you’re just a mess.

And so what do you go to? You go to the coffee, you go to the energy drinks, and you try to get yourself back to be functional again. And then the next night, well, let’s drink some more. And then it just becomes a vicious cycle, right?

Dr. Leah Kaylor: it 100% is. And so even though we kind of like chronologically got a little bit out of order, I wanted to make sure that I put that out there because. Yeah, if you’re getting amped up in the daytime [00:40:00] because you need it or you, you believe that you need it or yeah, you’re doing the thing with the pre-workout like later into the evening. Well, yeah. How else are we gonna come back down? That’s, you know, normally our, our go-to of coming back down. But it, it’s not doing you any favors either. And when your, when your sleep is under the influence, you’re also in such a lighter, more fragile state of sleep where, you know, maybe like a creaky floorboard that normally would never wake you up does because you are just so much more attune with your surroundings in, in such a lighter stage that you can much more easily be pulled out of sleep.

Whether you. Recognize it or not, and we call those micro arousals. So yeah, you’re just, your quality of sleep is, is super, super poor. So I just needed to put that out there because you know, we are talking for our first responder veteran population of,

Hey, this is, this is a go-to and we need to talk about this science behind

this and why this is a poor idea.

Scott DeLuzio: Right. and and it is And it is. I, I mean, I know from firsthand experience it doesn’t work. [00:41:00] It, it’s, it, you think it’s working.

Dr. Leah Kaylor: working.

Scott DeLuzio: Right, exactly. And I, for the longest time I thought it was working and, and then I, I realized just like, this is not sustainable. I can’t keep. Doing this to myself and God knows what it’s doing to the rest of my body.

And, and so like, that’s, that’s just not the right way to go. And uh, you know, we, we do fall into those traps you know, I guess self-medication in, in those you know, ’cause alcohol and caffeine. they’re, a drug as well. And.

Dr. Leah Kaylor: are.

Scott DeLuzio: And so, I mean, we don’t it that way ’cause it’s not like I, I have to go get a prescription for my coffee and,

Dr. Leah Kaylor: readily available.

Scott DeLuzio: it’s, readily available.

it’s just, you know, as over the counter as uh, you know, Advil or, or whatever. But, you know, it’s, it’s just a, you know, a different way of thinking. I think that this, this um, information that you’re putting out here, it’s gonna to kind of recognize that. You’re kind of shooting yourself in the foot with, with the stuff that you’re doing, and if you can just make some of these small changes Yeah, sure.

In, in the moment, like right now, some of these things like maybe reduce some of the [00:42:00] coffee in, in the caffeine intake, that might

Dr. Leah Kaylor: it can be gradual, right? like baby steps. Yes. It does not have to be like cold Turkey today. In fact, I don’t recommend

that. Gradual.

Scott DeLuzio: Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, just, just start to, just see like, how, how is this gonna help you over, over time, you know, how, how are you doing next week or the week from that after that?

And you know, how, how is that you over time? And as, as you start to see those benefits, maybe it makes sense to kind of dive into that a little bit

more. Yeah.

Dr. Leah Kaylor: And I think that what you are alluding to is amazing, right? Like we need to be more self-aware, but how do we do that? Because we as humans, not anyone in particular, we as humans just are kind of flawed whenever it comes to our memory. And so I started this back when I was at the va and it’s something that I still continue to do this to this day, is that if anybody wants to do any sleep work with me. I have them start with at least. Two weeks, if not three weeks worth of sleep logs. And I’m [00:43:00] old school man. I do paper sleep logs because even though you may have a smartwatch, a smart ring, a smart bed, whatever you name it, I think that there’s so much more nuance that is captured on paper. And um, if you’d like, we can link one show notes for folks.

But what it’s really getting at, and the one that I like to use is getting at what time did you get into bed? What time did you try to go to bed? Those are actually two, can be two very different things for some people. Some people may get into bed and immediately turn off the lights and try to go to bed. Wonderful. That’s how it should be. But some people get into bed and it’s not until hours later that they decide to close their eyes. So it’s just little things like that. That we are tapping into whenever I use a paper sleep log to see how things are going, but also it’s not just logging sleep at night.

There’s also a flip side to it, literally on the other side of the page where I’m asking you about your caffeine intake. I’m asking you about naps, which we haven’t even touched that yet. I’m asking you about [00:44:00] alcohol. I’m asking you about your meals and your meal timing. Did you have a heavy meal? Did you have a spicy meal?

Uh, asking about medications, because medications, whether we realize it or not, can be. Influencing sleep, whether that’s influencing making you feel more alert or making you feel more sleepy. And so there’s so many things that we need to be looking at. Did you have a wind down routine or did you just try and fall face first into bed?

Are you at home or are you traveling because you’re on TDY? There’s so many things that come into it that you fill in the blank. Smart device cannot give us that data, and so that’s why, especially when I’m working with my first responders, my agents. I need that data to be able to get a full, comprehensive picture of what’s happening.

And so we’ll include that so folks can start doing that. And you don’t have to, you know, even if you’re going at it alone and you just wanna see some patterns, you absolutely can by just this simple paper and pencil method. and not to say that a wearable can’t give you more. Supplement more additional [00:45:00] information and they absolutely do have a place, but this is how I like to work old school is because this is what really

gives me some good data to dig into.

Scott DeLuzio: Right. And some of those devices too, can, can have skewed data that are, is not exactly accurate, especially if you have somebody else in the room that that’s sleeping too, because it may, it may pick up on some, some of their movements or sounds or, or whatever it is that it’s tracking. Just as a kind of funny anecdotal uh, story here I was using a, an app on my phone that was kind of starting to track my, my sleep. And I, I was starting to use it and I was looking at it and I, I asked my wife, I was like, I don’t snore that much. As much as this thing is saying that I’m snoring, do I, I mean, if I do like, let me no, obviously, but it’s like, no, I, I mean not, I used once in a while, but not, not.

Like this thing is saying, well, we have two bulldogs that sleep in the room with us.

Dr. Leah Kaylor: There’s

Scott DeLuzio: And it was recording, it was recording them, uh, you know, which they basically snore all the mean, they, they, they snore when they’re awake. So, um, you know, it’s like, it, those things are not gonna be [00:46:00] perfect either.

But the type of data that you’re looking for times and, and meals and, and stuff like that, that’s some, something that you can easily just jot down on, on a notebook or piece of paper, whatever. And. And you can keep track of that. You can have it on, on the nightstand next to your bed. So you could just write down the, the information just before you, you know, get into bed or, or whatever it is that you’re, you’re trying to do.

And, and you know, it’s, it’s helpful to be able for someone like yourself to be able to look at that information and then then say, okay, well here’s a maybe we can start making and, and, and then we can, we can get you into, into a better place. And, and I think you know. The definition I think of, of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

And if you’ve been having the same kind of sleep patterns for the last 10, 15, 20 years or, or however long, and it’s just sucked ever since you’ve started sleeping like crap. And you’re, it’s like, well, Let me just try to sleep again. You’re doing the same thing that you’ve been doing all along and it, it’s [00:47:00] not working obviously.

So let’s, let’s be open to trying something new and changing up one or two things. And like you said, it doesn’t have to be a wholesale change of everything in your whole life. Just a couple things here and there and, and see how that helps. And then maybe change something else and, and it’s just small, little incremental improvements until you get to the point where you’re able to get that full night, the seven to nine hour of sleep.

Right.

Dr. Leah Kaylor: And that’s, why I think it’s so valuable for people to start logging their sleep. And just to give you an example, without giving any confidentiality pieces away, I’ve been working with someone for probably like five sessions now. So maybe like. Two or three months. ’cause we don’t meet every time or every week I should say.

And the person is like, I am so frustrated and my sleep isn’t getting any better. And I’m like, well, I just pulled your sleep logs from when we first started working together, when you were getting three hours of sleep and now you’re complaining about getting like between five and six hours of sleep per night.

So. You’re still probably feeling pretty crappy in the daytime and you’re [00:48:00] not feeling as best as you possibly could, but look how far we’ve come, and that is one of the reasons why I think it’s so important, not just to keep the sleep logs and like you said, being very consistent with it. This was when I used to work at the va.

I used to have a waiting room and I could see people who were waiting to come see me and they would have their sleep logs completely blank and furiously trying to write in all of the information from like the past three weeks. That is not how it works people. Just like what you said, keep it on your nightstand, keep it next to your toothbrush, where you can see it every day.

It doesn’t need to take more than like a minute or two at max. And then you’re getting this very data rich information that you can use solo or you can share with the provider too. But keeping those week after week after week and reflecting back on them to see, oh, I, I was drinking six cans of Monster a day, and now I’m down to three.

Okay. I’m seeing a little bit of a difference here.

Scott DeLuzio: sure, sure.

Dr. Leah Kaylor: it’s it’s little things. I don’t

want you to do a complete overhaul of your life [00:49:00] because you’re gonna do that. You’re gonna be able to stick with it for a very small portion of time. You’re gonna get frustrated and then you’re just gonna go back to your old habits.

So starting slow, picking one or two small things, and that’s really why I wrote this book, is that I only have so many hours in the day. Like we talked about. I wish I had more, but in order to help all the people who need this type of assistance and need this information. I basically dumped my entire brain into this book so that you can follow along and you can make these changes and do it for a week or two, and then come back to the book and pick a new habit that you’d like to start and start tracking that and just see how these changes are for you, because yeah, nothing’s gonna change unless you change

something.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And, and it gives you more better quality hours of during the day

Dr. Leah Kaylor: quality

Scott DeLuzio: a quantity, you know, because yes, sure, you may stay up later, you may wake up earlier, you may get more quantity of hours, but there’ll be lower quality and, and that’s not where [00:50:00] you want to be. And so, I know there’s, there’s so, much stuff that we could be talking

Dr. Leah Kaylor: have to do it. Part two, part three.

Scott DeLuzio: I think we’re gonna have to do, do something like that, but uh, I think, I feel like we have just scratched the surface on, on this. But I, I, I think we can go more, but I also want people to get a copy of the book because I’m sure that there is,

Dr. Leah Kaylor: It’s a gold

Scott DeLuzio: ton of, ton of information in there.

Like you said, you dumped your brain in there and that there’s just so much information will really help folks out if they are struggling with their sleep or um, they know somebody who is, uh, their sleep. Get, a copy of the book. And, and before we wrap up, I wanna give you a, a another chance just to let people know a again, what the name of the book is uh, where they can find it, what the, the, you know, the, kind of the gist of the information find in it.

Dr. Leah Kaylor: Yeah. Yeah. So the title of the book is called If Sleep Were a Drug, and I’m the author. My name is Dr. Leah Kaylor. Um, you can find it on Amazon. You can. on books, stop by. But you can also just find it on my website too. There is an ebook, there is an audiobook, and there’s also a companion [00:51:00] workbook.

It may or may not, the companion workbook may or may not be out by the time that this episode drops, but it is coming. So keep an eye out and essentially what this book does, it is written for first responders, but if you’re listening and you’re thinking, well, damn, I won’t. I wanna get on on this too.

Anyone can pick this book up and benefit from it because everybody sleeps and everybody goes through light deep rem, you know, all the facts are still there, but it’s written through the lens of first responders. And my examples are from first responders, but it really, truly, anyone can pick up this book and anyone can benefit from it.

And essentially it’s broken up into three sections. So the first section is kind of, we. Again, this is why it’s the first responder lens and perspective of I’ll sleep when I’m dead and why that attitude is so destructive. And then I talk about, okay, so let’s, let’s talk about that then. You know, if.

I’ll sleep when I’m dead.

And I talk about why that is such a hindrance to your brain, to your body, to your immune system. [00:52:00] Every single system in your body that you can imagine you are damaging. I also talk about why sleep deprivation has been weaponized as a torture technique because it really, truly is so incredibly problematic.

So I talk about that and then I talk about. What is light sleep, REM sleep, deep sleep. Why are these so important? And we like kind of scratch the surface here with REM sleep today, but I talk about why are those important and then as sleep needs change throughout the lifespan, so an infant is not sleeping the same amount as a 16-year-old, why? Why are those sleep needs different? I talk about how to log your sleep and I explain exactly how to do that. So that’s part one. Then part two is all about, and this is a lot of what we talked about here today, but there’s so much more and in depth in the science behind it because I think that it’s really important that if you understand the science, then you’re more likely to make behavior changes.

But it’s all about what I call sleep disruptors. So naps. Caffeine, alcohol, sharing your bed with a partner, uh, having a TV in the bedroom, [00:53:00] all these different things that you do to get in your own way and why that’s problematic. And then the last section of the book is like a troubleshooting manual.

So if you are experiencing sleep paralysis, if you’re sleepwalking, night terrors, nightmares, if you’re a shift worker, if you’re experiencing obstructive sleep apnea, there’s other things that I can’t think of right now that I’m not naming, but this section is huge and it’s all about why do these things happen.

How can we improve them? How can we work on these different things? How can we get to a better place? How can we address them? So I really wrote it in such a way where. I want this to be a book that you have on your shelf and you can pull out at any point in time and you can go to whatever it is that you’re struggling, whether that’s having a hard time falling asleep, staying asleep, nightmares.

Or you could share it with someone else too of like, Hey, you’re snoring like crazy. Let’s pull out and read the three chapters on obstructive sleep apnea. So it’s really, that’s what it’s all about. So it’s just, if, if I do say so myself, just jam packed with a, a gold mine of information that. People can really use, and even if you’re not struggling with sleep, [00:54:00] there are things in here that you can read and that you can put in your back pocket to improve your sleep even more.

I really truly do believe that, so I am absolutely thrilled. Again, it’s called If Sleep Were a Drug.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely.

I, I, I think that is, um, first off a great rundown of and what people can expect, but uh, I think it’s definitely something that, uh, folks should grab a copy it. Keep it around because again, sleep needs will change, things will, will start to happen. You, you might experience something in the future that affects your sleep and okay, well why?

And maybe you want to have that reference guide to be able to go to it and say, okay, what can I do about this? How can I fix this and, and get back to sleeping the way I should be sleeping? And you know, I, I think that that’s just a, um, you know, a great resource to have around. um, you know, it may not necessarily be for you, it might someone that, that, you know, uh, someone in your family that, that, is having the issues. Um, but it might just be a, a great,

a, great tool to, to along along your sleep you will um, to, to get back into uh, good [00:55:00] sleep habits. So, Again, uh, definitely on the show. Like I, like we said, might need to be a two or three part series because there’s, there’s a lot that we, we just barely scratched the surface and I um, you know, I, I think there’s a lot more that we could talk and, and it’s definitely something that’s important too.

Uh, the audience that, that we have here, um, sure there’s tons of people out there who are listening who have sleep issues and. Probably some of this stuff has resonated with them. So, So, thank you for coming on and sharing your, expertise on, on sleep and, and everything else that, that we uh, talked about.

But, um, I, I thank you I, I’m looking forward another chat with you.

Dr. Leah Kaylor: Absolutely. Thank you for having me. And yes, we’ll pick it up on part two.

Scott DeLuzio: Sounds great.