Episode 559 Brian Gilman Nature Therapy For Combat Veterans Transcript

This transcript is from episode 559 with guest Brian Gilman.

[00:00:00] Scott DeLuzio: If getting outta the military felt like slamming on the brakes, and now you’re stuck between missing the rush of a deployment, feeling totally outta place at work, maybe even at home, you’re not the only one carrying that weight. You might still wanna be a good dad, a solid hu husband, a reliable coworker, but some days the stress that you’ve endured and the injuries maybe that you’ve encountered are worse than.

[00:00:27] Any firefight that you ever rolled through, imagine trading that, that edge for something else. A new mission, a a tight crew that you can get along with, um, maybe even some time out in the mountains where your body and brain finally calm down enough for the big questions to make sense again. That is exactly what retired Marine Colonel and Warriors and Quiet Waters, CEO.

[00:00:53] Brian Gilman shares with us today as he walks through how nature, evidence-based coaching and [00:01:00] small veteran cohorts or are helping post nine 11 combat vets move from drifting through life to truly thriving. Before we get into this episode, though, I want to take a moment to raise awareness for something that’s deeply important to our community.

[00:01:15] The Global War on Terrorism Memorial Foundation. This organization is working to build a permanent national memorial in Washington DC to honor the service members, families, and civilians who are impacted by the global war on terrorism. This memorial will be both a tribute to those who served and. A way to ensure that their sacrifices are recognized and remembered for generations to come.

[00:01:39] If you’d like to learn more or find out how you can support their mission, visit GWOT Memorial Foundationorg. Now let’s get into today’s episode.

[00:01:47]

[00:02:00] Scott DeLuzio: Hey, Brian, welcome to the show. Really glad to have you here.

[00:02:04] Brian Gilman: I am really,

[00:02:04] Really grateful. to Be here. Thank you.

[00:02:06] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. Before we kinda get into the meat of this episode and, and kind of what you’re, you’re doing now, but I’d, I’d love for you to kind of fill us in a little bit about yourself and, and kind your background, your, your journey from.

[00:02:18] The Marine Corps to where you’re at today and, and all that kinda stuff. Mostly for the listeners, so you know, anyone who’s not familiar with you and, and who you are they can kind of get an idea who, who we are talking with today.

[00:02:30] Brian Gilman: Sure. So my name is Brian Gilman. I’m the Chief Executive Officer for Warriors and Quiet Waters Foundation, which is a 5 0 1 C3 Veterans Impact organization based in Montana. Montana native. Grew up in Butte, Montana and felt the call to serve late in my, in my college career. So applied to the Marine Corps about halfway through my senior year in college.

[00:02:50] After I graduated, got accepted into into the Marine Corps Officer Canada School. And was commissioned a second lieutenant in January of 1994 with the intent to serve four years. [00:03:00] But the Marine Corps did a great job of, of continuing to put what were incredible opportunities in front of me. So I ended up staying 27 years in the Marine Corps.

[00:03:08] Served in a variety of bullets in most of mostly infantry, reconnaissance, some marine special operations command billets. Was a reco reconnaissance marine by trade. Promoted to the rank of Colonel and retired in 2020 at a Camp Lejeune Marine Special Operations Command to, to come back here and lead Warriors and Quiet Waters Foundation. The only reason I’m here is I got assigned a, a billet that I didn’t really want when I was assigned to the joint staff as a lieutenant colonel at the Pentagon. I got assigned to an office called the, the Chairman’s Office of Reintegration Thinking. I I was going to the J three, the operations directorate on the joint staff.

[00:03:40] It turns out this. Chairman’s Office of Reintegration was a, a office that the, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Admiral Mullen at the time, created within his office of the chairman to lead the military efforts in, create an effective reintegration pathways for veterans. You know, like, like everybody that, that, that understands what their role is.

[00:03:57] I, I, I boomed where I, where I was planted [00:04:00] and even though I didn’t want the job, fell in love with the work. Fell in love with the idea of working in, you know, a purpose-driven organization, a nonprofit when I retired, primarily because of the 400 or so nonprofits that I got the chance to bump up against while I was serving in that billet. And that’s really what led me here. I was, I was serving as the chief of staff at Marine Special Operations Command when this opportunity here at Warriors and Quiet Waters. It presented itself and it was a pretty quick this, you know, conversation between my wife and I, I was a veteran services organization in my home state, in the, in the city.

[00:04:30] My mo mother lives in serving post nine 11 combat veterans. So it was the perfect transition that I was looking for. And, and it, it was definitely the, absolutely the right decision because I get this opportunity to come to work every day, lead this incredible team, and, and have the impact that we’re having on post nine 11 combat veterans.

[00:04:47] So that’s how I got here.

[00:04:48] Scott DeLuzio: Awesome. And I, I wanna get more into what Warriors and Quiet Waters is all about and and, and things like that too. But it, it’s awesome that you’re you’re able to find something that’s close to home, close to where you want [00:05:00] to be, and

[00:05:00] you didn’t have to kind of make those sacrifices where, where a lot of people, they, they might find a perfect opportunity for them themselves,

[00:05:07] but it’s not in the place that they want to be or, or vice versa.

[00:05:10] And, and so, so then, then you end up. Kind of being torn, like, is that really what I wanna be doing? Is that really what where I wanna be?

[00:05:18] But in your case, it seems like that’s exactly what you wanna be doing and exactly where you wanna be. So that’s,

[00:05:22] Brian Gilman: Yeah, I’m, I’m extremely aware of the, the, you know, the incredible, unique opportunity this gave me. I’m a, you know, most veterans don’t get that alignment across all of their needs when they, when they transition outta the service. So

[00:05:35] we’re filled with gratitude, believe me, for, for this opportunity.

[00:05:38] Scott DeLuzio: Well, that’s, that’s, great. That’s great.

[00:05:40] And, um, so, so you mentioned Warriors and Quiet Waters is obviously the organization you’re

[00:05:45] talking about, you know, how they help post nine 11 combat veterans and their, you know, their loved ones and, and things like that. Tell us about the organization. What, what exactly is it that you guys do and, and how, how do you help work with these veterans?

[00:05:58] Brian Gilman: Yeah, I’ll, I’ll talk about what [00:06:00] we do now then I’ll briefly talk about, you know, how we got started. So

[00:06:03] what, what warriors and Quiet Waters is today. As I mentioned, we’re a 5 0 1 C3 Veterans Impact organization and, and our organization’s purpose is to empower post nine 11 combat veterans. To thrive and live purpose-driven lives. We do that through, through nature-based programs. But it, it’s a, the, the nature activities that we do are not the point of the program. They’re really co-facilitators in the program. And we can talk later if you’d like about what nature, how nature fills that role. Really what we do is we use nature to put the, the veterans in the psychological and the emotional place they need to be in order to grapple with the hard, challenging questions that the rest of the program’s gonna throw at ’em. In terms of how they build strength in these domains of thriving so that they can live thriving, purpose-driven lives after the military. So it’s anchored in week long experiences in nature here in Montana at the beginning and the end. And it’s a nine month long program. In between those, those week long experiences at the beginning and the end, the program’s delivered remotely [00:07:00] to the veterans in their, in the places that they live. Through our program, facilitators and it’s evidence-based programming, our program’s based on the, the, the most empirically rigorous. Research has been done on what it takes human beings to thrive. And really that’s what the program is about, is about empowering veterans to build strength in these domains of thriving so that they can, they can continue to have meaningful lives of service and purpose and continue to, to, to make a difference in the places that they live.

[00:07:26] And they get a, they get to pick what that different difference looks like. So that’s what we do now. That’s not how we started. We, we were founded in 2007 by another retired Marine Colonel Bozeman, Montana, native lifelong fly fisherman named Eric Hastings, who was a, a Vietnam veteran. He flew 168 combat missions in Vietnam, lost five pilots in his squadron, and he found meaning in, in, in healing from his experiences in Vietnam through fly fishing.

[00:07:52] Fast forward 2006. Eric’s retired and him and his wife conceive of this idea to create a fly fishing program for veterans [00:08:00] to serve the, the, the tragically wounded warriors that were coming out of the combat theaters. At the time, as you know, height of the wars, a lot of combat veterans coming, coming home wounded.

[00:08:10] So they created a week long fly fishing experience. It was intended to really provide critically wounded combat veterans. An opportunity to get outside of that hospital environment, find some respite from the, the, the, the stress and anxiety associated with their wounds, their transition that hospital environment, learn a new skill, fly fishing, and connect them to a larger community of other veterans and volunteers that cared deeply about ’em.

[00:08:35] And that’s what we did for the first. Up until 2019, so what’s that? 12 years of the organization and that, that, that program delivered exactly what was needed. The board recognized that the, the veterans’ needs were changing, so that’s why we, we transformed our programming to what it is today.

[00:08:51] Scott DeLuzio: It’s important, I think, to keep your ear to the ground and, and kind of understand what it is that your, uh, kind of target [00:09:00] demographic is, is

[00:09:00] looking for what they need. And, and so yeah, making that pivot to en encompass different things that, that maybe you, you weren’t originally intending to.

[00:09:09] Um, that, that just, I, I think that’s, that’s awesome because you’re, you’re not just trying to pigeonhole everyone into the same,

[00:09:18] uh. Same one type of thing that, that this is all we do. This is it, and we’re not changing and we’re not gonna budge. ’cause at, at some point you know, it, things are gonna have to change. And so, so that’s,

[00:09:29] it’s, that’s pretty good. Now I, I’ve had. A guest on the show before, actually one guest in particular, he, he was like one of my first guests on, on the show years ago.

[00:09:40] And he was talking about how nature to him is his, his therapy. It’s his church, it’s his you know, just way to go out and, and kind of clear his mind. Just getting

[00:09:52] outdoors, getting in touch with nature, whether it’s hiking on a trail or you know. Canoeing down a river or, you know, whatever [00:10:00] it is that, that he’s doing.

[00:10:01] You know, he’s, he’s outside and nature is his place where he goes for for healing. And I’m

[00:10:07] sure that’s the case with a lot of folks. They, um, when they get outside, they start to recognize that there is this healing effect. But. When so many of us are, you know, our jobs are inside our,

[00:10:21] you know, our houses, you know, we we’re, we’re coming back home to our families and we’re inside and we’re, we’re not really getting outside touching grass or letting the sun hit our face or any of those things.

[00:10:33] We, we start to miss out on that.

[00:10:35] Brian Gilman: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:35] Scott DeLuzio: So I, I think. The, the nature piece of it that, that you were just talking about is, is pretty important. And not only just while you’re going through your, your program but for the long term too. I mean,

[00:10:49] I think, I think everyone needs to get outside and,

[00:10:52] you know, whether it’s go for a walk or go go for a bike ride or whatever, something just simple, just getting outside I think is, is,

[00:10:59] important [00:11:00] no matter where you are.

[00:11:00] just, just to get out there right.

[00:11:02] Brian Gilman: Yeah. And I mean that, you know that, that the and quiet waters. Started as a, an organization that, that, that served veterans through nature, primarily because of the experiences of our founder Eric and his experience is fly fishing. It was, it was incredibly attractive to me because those are the same experiences I had growing up here in Montana.

[00:11:21] Lifelong outdoorsman, what I needed to, to, to, to go somewhere to get centered, to figure things out. You know, just to relieve stress, I always went to the mountains or the water here in Montana, so I understood and Eric understood what nature could provide us. I really didn’t understand the why behind it till I got here and really started digging into the research that that explains it all.

[00:11:42] And the fact is, is that. If, if you give it a chance, nature’s gonna have that effect on all human beings. I mean, the, there’s a a huge body of research that’s been done, and it, it, it identifies the actual physiological changes that happen as a result of us spending time in nature. Just spending time in, in nature. When you’re [00:12:00] not paying attention to your phone you know, your, your cortisol levels are coming down. So your stress and your anxiety is, is, is being relieved. Your serotonin levels are coming up. Which means your, your positive affect, your hopefulness, your positive view on the world is increasing. Spending time in nature actually increases the production of killer cells. Those cells in our body that fight, fight disease. You’re spending time in, in the sun, so your circadian rhythms getting back into, into sink and you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re probably gonna be sleeping better. You’re typically more active when you’re spending time in nature.

[00:12:33] So all of these positive physiological effects happen just spending time in nature. And then when you add. A, a, a activity like the activities that we utilize in our program program, fly fishing, archery hunting, and photography. You get some additional benefits. These are all activities that, that require a light focus. But they don’t require, you know, the, the kind of problem solving focus that we, that we apply when we’re trying to solve a math problem or something like that.

[00:12:58] And they’re enjoyable [00:13:00] activities, so. When you’re doing those kinda activities in nature, the first thing that happens is, is you’re enjoying them.

[00:13:05] So you’re looking forward to more so your, your brain starts dumping dopamine into your system. And dopamine is that, is that chemical that, that, that causes us to anticipate future hope, future things that we look forward to. And the combination of comfort in, in dopamine together in your system based on what the research tells us, makes us more creative and better problem solvers.

[00:13:27] Scott DeLuzio: Okay.

[00:13:28] Brian Gilman: And then when you, when you think about the light focus aspect of it. What that does is it, it actually activates the regions of your brain that are most active when, when, when you’re lightly focused, when you’re mind wandering. And the combination of all that together gives you an opportunity to, to, to arrive, to epiphanies.

[00:13:44] Have you ever had a, an epiphany in the shower

[00:13:46] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah.

[00:13:47] Yeah.

[00:13:47] Brian Gilman: or driving down the highway? You

[00:13:49] know, something that, that, that, that requires light focus. And that’s, there’s actually a, you know, a, a name for that, that those regions of the brain that they call the default mode network, and when the default mode [00:14:00] network is active. While you’re lightly focused on the activity at hand, those regions of the brain that are active are also processing things that you’ve been consciously processing, and that allows you often to arrive to those epiphanies. They actually call it the shower effect because sometimes you arrive at epiphanies in, in the shower.

[00:14:19] So when you think about all these things coming together, your stress and anxiety is coming down. Your positive affect, your, your outlook on life is becoming more hopeful. You’re becoming a better problem solver more creative, and you have an opportunity for epiphanies. These are the kind of conditions that we want veterans who are struggling with their transition and trying to figure out how they can make their future as meaningful as their past.

[00:14:40] Those are the, that’s the place we wanna put ’em. And while that wasn’t the design at the, at the outset of our program, as we, as we designed the Build for More program, that was the intent. And I, I tell my my team all the time, one doesn’t work without the other. What makes our program effective is we combine that, that, that evidence-based programming with those experiences in nature [00:15:00] where we’re, we’re, we’re seasoned on the opportunity when the veterans are in their best place to solve those, those challenges and to arrive at those epiphanies.

[00:15:08] So the program’s a complete package and every piece of it’s just as important as the others.

[00:15:14] Scott DeLuzio: So you, you have the nature pieces kind of bookends on, on

[00:15:18] either end, right? And

[00:15:19] then in the middle you mentioned there’s some, some virtual

[00:15:22] Brian Gilman: Yep.

[00:15:22] Scott DeLuzio: stuff that people can do from home, essentially.

[00:15:25] Uh, what, what are those what are those sessions look like and, and what does, what’s the frequency, time, commitment that, that type of thing that you, you look for?

[00:15:31] Brian Gilman: Yeah. Yeah, that’s a great question. So, when we, when we designed the bill for more program, we knew that the kind of change that we were trying to achieve wasn’t something that could happen in a short amount of time. So we knew that it was going to, it was gonna take some time. It was gonna take work on behalf of the veterans in order to, to fully benefit and achieve the outcomes we were trying to achieve in the, in the program. We also recognize that, that the veterans that we serve have busy lives. And the, the chances of them coming to Montana for big chunks of time were probably very limited, [00:16:00] as well as their ability to come to Montana twice in a year. So we spread the program deliberately across, over nine months to, to deal with those, those realities of the veterans’ lives and to make it manageable.

[00:16:10] So a veteran’s gonna spend about three hours a week engaging with the program when they’re at home. And I wanna, I wanna clarify that the veterans go through the programming cohorts. So if you’re a veteran in, in going through the bill for more program, you’re gonna be in a cohort with seven other veterans.

[00:16:26] So cohorts of eight combat veterans that go to it together. And, and that’s key because the, the, one of the, the primary outcomes that we try to achieve at the, at the beginning of the program, at that initial experience when they’re here in Montana, is to create tight bonds within that cohort and create commitment. Commitment to the program and commitment to each other that they’re gonna do the hard work and they’re gonna be for each other there, for each other as they go through the program. So what it looks like when a veteran’s at home going through the Build for More program, we built online content based on what the research tells us about these domains that thriving, where they can access [00:17:00] that content online and learn at their own, at their own pace. There’s individual learning activities that they’ll do after consuming that content. If there’s directed journaling prompts that we give them, where they will journal on, on the, the, the content of the, of the module that they’re in, because a lot of, a lot of the learning that happens in this program happens through, through deep reflection and journaling is a great tool to use that every module over that eight month period when they’re at home is also anchored in a peer-to-peer discussion. Content on the module, content between two individuals in the cohort, and then it culminates in a cohort wide facilitated discussion That’s facilit facilitated by our program facilitators. And these program facilitators are also really, really what they are. They’re, they’re cohort managers. They, they’re the ones that keep the, the cohort together and move and solve, help ’em solve problems, ensure they have access to the content, everything that they need, and they really drive the learning home and those facilitating discussions.

[00:17:56] That happened in each of those modules. So there’s six modules [00:18:00] that they’ll go through over the course of about eight months. Then they’ll come back to Montana for a capstone experience, another week long immersion in nature with their cohort, getting that cohort back together further cementing those bonds that we’re trying to create in that cohort. And giving them an opportunity to put everything that they’ve, they’ve learned and grown in the, in the program into context. And then we ask them to put everything that they’ve learned in the, in the form of what we call a roadmap on paper, which is they put on paper how they’re gonna apply everything that they brought on in the, both for more program to their lives going forward.

[00:18:34] So they got a toolkit to use. When, you know, transition happens in the future when they, they’re facing future adversity, when they’re trying to achieve big goals, things like that. They got a toolkit that they’ve built and they’ve reflected on how they’re gonna apply that toolkit to their lives going forward.

[00:18:49] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, that, that’s awesome that they have that takeaway where they can, they can now use this in other situations going forward, down the line.

[00:18:58] Um, because, [00:19:00] You know, some of these tools are not necessarily tools that you need to use every single day. You know, where, where you’re not facing a crisis every single day, right.

[00:19:08] And

[00:19:08] you’re not facing, You know, those types of things when. Inevitably those things will eventually happen, unfortunately. And you know, when they do. How do you, how do you handle those? How do you, how are you going to approach the, whatever the situation is,

[00:19:22] and, um, and, you, you can go, go reach into that toolbox and use those skills that you learned and, and use those to, to help out in, in whatever the situation is.

[00:19:31] But something else that you, you had mentioned something about journaling and, and how that you know, gives the opportunity for some deep reflection with, with those those, those people who are going through the, the program. One of the things I’ve noticed just kind of a anecdotal you know, commentary here, but one of the things I’ve noticed with journaling is when you’re writing down something and you’re, you’re thinking about an event or something, something that happened you know, it doesn’t matter what it is you’re writing it.[00:20:00]

[00:20:00] You write a whole lot slower, you know, pen, pen and paper. You write a whole lot slower than you think or speak.

[00:20:07] And so right now I could describe an event, you know, that, you know, x, y, z happened. And, and this is where I was and this is what I felt, and this is what all the things. And I could tell you in, in about 10 seconds, I wouldn’t even get the first line written in 10 seconds.

[00:20:20] And

[00:20:20] so, in order. In order to get the full story out, it’s gonna take me some time in, in the, in the downtime if you will. While, while I’m, I’m busy writing, my brain can kind of think a little bit more, a little bit

[00:20:34] deeper about whatever that incident is or that I’m, that I’m writing about, whatever the, the thing is.

[00:20:40] And it gets me thinking a little bit

[00:20:43] more, uh, not just me, it’s anybody really. but get, gets you thinking a little bit more and. Sometimes it can reveal certain things that maybe you forgot about or

[00:20:55] maybe you consider a different angle, or maybe you, you just have a [00:21:00] different way of thinking of whatever the, the situation is and it can really help you drill down into the.

[00:21:08] The nitty gritty of whatever it is. And, and that’s where sometimes you might find some, some healing taking place

[00:21:14] because, You, you might have uncovered something that maybe you forgot all about,

[00:21:19] uh, depending on how long ago, whatever it is that you’re thinking about took place. And so,

[00:21:24] you know, that that journaling is, is important thing,

[00:21:26] um, that, that you’re, you’re talking about there.

[00:21:28] But

[00:21:29] Brian Gilman: Yeah, it’s a, it is a critically, you know, a critical tool that we use in the program. It, as, as you mentioned, it, it, it causes you to think deeper. It

[00:21:36] reinforces retention, it sparks your memory, all those things that you talked about. And that’s, that’s why we use it because it’s an incredibly effective tool for thinking deeply about different subjects. And, you know, it’s also something that they can go back and refer to.

[00:21:51] The journaling, the journaling’s for them only. We don’t collect their journals. It’s for them only. We just ask, ask for them to, to tell us that they’ve completed the journaling prompt. And it’s there [00:22:00] all the time for them to, for them to keep and go back and refer to.

[00:22:02] So it’s an incredibly effective tool. It’s hard for a lot of veterans in our, in our program, I’ll tell you that the, the journaling is a, a struggle for many at the beginning, but if they give it a chance, it really becomes an effective tool. So it’s a huge part of our program.

[00:22:17] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And. Sometimes digging up those old memories of things that are, are really upsetting or really bothersome that it, it can be difficult to get into at first, but, but

[00:22:28] once then you start working through it, kind of peeling back some of those layers of the onion, if you will, and, and kind of getting to the, the core of whatever the issue is.

[00:22:36] It, it can really help you figure out. How to deal with whatever it is that you’re dealing with

[00:22:43] and, and move forward from that.

[00:22:44] Brian Gilman: Yep.

[00:22:45] Scott DeLuzio: but I, but I know there’s, there’s a lot of veterans who you know, they, they struggle with one thing or another, but a, a lot of times it’s, it’s that reintegration back into civilian life or

[00:22:59] feeling like [00:23:00] they have lost.

[00:23:01] A sense of purpose or mission, identity, all those

[00:23:04] things after leaving the service, I’m sure know, a lot of people listening have experienced something like

[00:23:10] that. You’re working with some of the people who are coming through your, your program is there, is there any indication that, that someone maybe is maybe not quite ready for going through the, the, the full program or, or is it.

[00:23:25] You know, pretty much this is something that, that can be applied to you know, just about anybody.

[00:23:29] Um, you know,

[00:23:30] Brian Gilman: Yeah, I mean it, you know, we.

[00:23:31] Scott DeLuzio: in, that journey.

[00:23:33] Brian Gilman: We go, we go through great pains to ensure that, that we’re, we’re getting veterans that are, that have a great fit and a great need for our program. You know, those are the two, two primary factors that we use when we, when in identifying veterans to place ’em in our program.

[00:23:47] And we have a, a. A fairly rigorous process that we go through with that. You, we will, we’ll open up our application a couple times a year and the first thing that the veteran will do is they’ll fill out a very robust online application. That application [00:24:00] includes res survey responses to what are called psychometric tools.

[00:24:04] So these are. Empirically validated surveys that psychologists and psychology psychiatrists have, have developed to, to measure things like thriving anger management, things like that. So they’ll fill out several psych psychometric surveys. So the, the brief inventory to thriving the brief, the, the purpose in life scale, anger management scale, connectedness to nature scale.

[00:24:26] So we, we see that and we get a score. Based on that survey, that kind of tells us where, based on their responses they’re, they’re at in those different domains. And then there, there are several open text responses to directed questions that we give them, that we really utilize to identify their fit and their need and their readiness for the program. Those, those applications are collected and their first, their first, first reviewed by my program staff. So every application is reviewed by a member of my program team, and they’re rated for fit and need. Then they go to a second review by members of my staff that aren’t on the program team, [00:25:00] that are ready to in, you know, in accordance with the same rubric for fit and need. And if there’s any differences between that first and that second review, we’ll have a conference to resolve it. Then we had, we stack rank them based on their fit and need scores, and then we start calling applicants that we’re looking to place in the program and do a 30 minute interview with them to confirm the fit need. Once we’ve done that, then we’ll work with them to place them in a cohort and place them in a program in the, in the coming year. And we work, we, we work really hard to, to try to form cohorts that are based regionally, so a bunch of veterans that are from the Southeast, Northwest, et cetera, because we want. That, that community to continue after the program and, and putting ’em, putting ’em together in, in regions where they live are much easier. And we can tell how I, we can talk about how we, we, we service that a little bit on our alumni engagement program, if you’d like. You know, that being said, the process isn’t, isn’t perfect.

[00:25:50] We do. We do have veterans that, that come in the program and struggle a little bit with it. And it, you know, in many cases that’s, that’s because of a life event that happens that they can’t [00:26:00] really give the time that they need to, to, to the program or they’re just not a good fit for the, for the program at that time.

[00:26:06] And we’ll work with them. We, we try to, we, you know, we’ll do our, our best. To keep them engaged in the program, but occasionally we do have pro veterans that just can’t finish the program and we will continue to try to stay engaged with them and encourage them to reapply, to come back in. So, you have to be ready for positive change in your life in order to to, to really capitalize on what BUILD For More brings to you.

[00:26:29] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and I think that’s a, a key to. You know, any type of

[00:26:33] therapy or anything else, like if

[00:26:35] if you’re not ready for it, if you’re, if you don’t, um, in some cases you don’t want it or don’t think you deserve it or things like that, it’s probably not gonna be as effective as someone who’s like, I I wanna make this change.

[00:26:47] I, I need to

[00:26:48] make this change. Let’s do this right now. Not to say that, oh, you know, just give up and don’t, don’t do anything. You know, if, if that’s you, it’s just, you know, your, your results may vary if,

[00:26:59] uh, depending [00:27:00] on, Your, your fitness for that, that type of,

[00:27:03] uh, that type of program. But but yeah, so, you know, you talked about the, the different cohort cohorts having kind of a regional focus and trying to keep those folks in touch with each other for a little bit of that.

[00:27:17] Comradery that I

[00:27:18] think a lot of us miss after getting out of the military. You know, we, we all served with people. We, we all made friends and you know, we all had people that were important to us while we, while we served. And then for one reason or another, you, you grow apart and you, you’re living in different parts of the country or different parts of the world and, and you’re just.

[00:27:37] You lose touch with those people. I know that that’s

[00:27:39] happened with me. Un unfortunately, and I know that many other people are, are the same way. But in, in this case, you know, if you get a bunch of people who are, you know, from the same geographic area, it’s a lot easier to stay in touch if you’re near each other than, than

[00:27:54] if you’re on opposite side side of the country.

[00:27:56] I know. Yeah, sure. There’s social media, there’s phone calls and text messaging and [00:28:00] things like that, but we, you are talking probably more in person connection. Is, is that, that kind of the gist of it?

[00:28:05] Brian Gilman: Yeah, it is. You know, the, the, the great thing about our program is that, you know, we, we put you together in a cohort of a bunch of like-minded veterans that have had similar experiences. We, we give you a week of peak experiences in nature that are pretty unique and pretty awesome experiences, and then we give you something to look forward to nine months later to get back together with that group so that, that keeps veterans engaged in the program. Once they complete the Build for More program, we want that, that cohort to remain strong because what we found in our program evaluation is that the, the stronger the bonds in the cohort. The more impactful the outcomes for the individual veterans in the, in the cohort, they’re directly correlated. So as a, as a function of our alumni engagement program, we will provide cohorts grants to help them fund the reunion to get back together.

[00:28:52] That’s how important it is for us

[00:28:54] to ensure that that cohort becomes that veteran’s new tribe. You mentioned missing those things when you got [00:29:00] out. I believe every, every combat veteran experiences that, and there are at least 18 different studies that I I’ve read that have identified that loss, that veterans experience, when they leave the military, you know, they, they, they lose their sense of purpose, they lose their identity and they lose their tribe.

[00:29:16] That connection. And those are all different, those are all different pillars in our program, but that community connection piece is I think one of the most important. And that’s backed up by other research as well. There’s a, have you ever heard of the Harvard Study of Adult Development?

[00:29:30] Scott DeLuzio: I haven’t, no.

[00:29:31] Brian Gilman: Yeah, so it’s a, it’s an 80-year-old longitudinal study conducted by Harvard University.

[00:29:36] It’s looked at over 700 participants over the course of their entire lifetimes. It’s been an incredibly rigorous study where they, you know, they’ll survey participants every year. They’ll do medical examinations every year. They collect blood markers every year. They do focus groups every year looking at people over the course of their lifetimes to identify. Those things that contribute to the longevity and thriving. And what this 80-year-old longitudinal study that’s [00:30:00] looked at over 700 study participants has identified is that the number one driver of longevity and thriving in life is the quality and the strength of our relationships.

[00:30:09] Important than heart health, more important than education, more important than your financial readiness. The most important thing are your connections, your community. So we work incredibly hard to build that community in these cohorts and to the, the broader wars and Whitewaters community as a whole.

[00:30:24] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, that, and, and that’s, that’s important too because the exact reasons you just said. I mean, if if, if you have no community, no connections to other, other folks and, you know, yeah, I, I can, I can totally see without even reading the study, I can totally see how that, that

[00:30:43] could be an issue for some folks.

[00:30:45] Um, and you know, it’s. It’s hard getting out and, and then going into, you know, your, your civilian job or you know, in your local community with other civilian people who have no [00:31:00] connection to the

[00:31:00] military. Especially someone who has served for many, many years. And, uh, during that time period, most of their.

[00:31:08] Their friends and their, the people that they associated with were military connected people.

[00:31:13] Um, sometimes it feels like it’s, it’s difficult to fit in with that, that

[00:31:18] group. And so, hey, why not get a group of military like-minded folks who all can get together there, you know, they live in the same kind of geographic area.

[00:31:30] And you know, to your point, you, you, you can have these reunion type events and. Whatever it is that you guys are all into, you can go out and, and do those things and, and I think that’s, that’s important for

[00:31:44] Brian Gilman: Yeah, yeah,

[00:31:46] Scott DeLuzio: too. Yeah.

[00:31:47] Brian Gilman: yeah. I mean, we, you know, we, we, we, we use the word tribe intentionally. You know, it. Let’s be honest, human beings, human beings evolved as tribal social animals. And the way that we look at tribe is it, it starts with [00:32:00] a strong family, but then it extends to a circle of what we call 3:00 AM friends. Those friends that are gonna come running to you no matter the hour issue. Those friends that hold you accountable, those friends that are gonna show up when everything else goes wrong. Those friends that are gonna tell you the truth when no one else will. You know, so it’s more than just proximity.

[00:32:15] It’s having that, that person that you know you can rely on and that you know, that you can serve as well in their time of need. So we work incredibly hard on, on rebuilding that tribe and we want that tribe to persist well after the bill for more program is over. So, and you know what, you mentioned duration of service. That’s ab absolutely a factor, but I also think that the intensity of the relationship contributes to it as well. You know, a a, a combat veteran who served four years yet shared these incredible. Intense experiences with the, the comrades on his or her left or right, you know, what they walked away with was a relationship that was probably more important to them than any other they’ve ever made in their life.

[00:32:54] And then trying to replicate that in civilian society when you, when you, when you leave the military, is [00:33:00] incredibly hard for a, a number of factors. So, you know, veterans, in my experience coming through the program sometimes have a hard time connecting outside of that, that military circle. And you know, we try to give ’em this tribe that they can rely on. Going forward.

[00:33:14] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and sometimes that shared connection that, that you know, whatever that experience was, whether it’s something in combat, maybe you know, a, a training event or something like that. There, there’s from folks that I’ve talked to there, there’s usually like this one event that like. It changes things where you

[00:33:31] went from a a just a thrown together collection of guys that that are now, you know, serving together and, and trying to complete a mission.

[00:33:40] To all of a sudden now we’re one cohesive unit.

[00:33:43] We’re, we’re together. We, we are, you know, basically a family you know, at that point.

[00:33:48] And then, You know, and, and I’ve heard that from a number of people that.

[00:33:52] They’ve, they’ve gone through some sort of transformation type

[00:33:55] experience. And, and it could be, you know, some people call it like baptism by [00:34:00] fire or something like that, where it’s

[00:34:01] just like, you know, in that, in that moment it’s like, yep.

[00:34:04] Now I know these are, these are my people,

[00:34:07] or, you know, something else could, could have taken place. But, you know, you

[00:34:10] share that experience and, and you really can’t share that experience with anybody else who, who wasn’t there.

[00:34:16] And, and you’re right, those experiences are super meaningful and that connection, that bond is super strong

[00:34:23] and you, it’s, that’s a difficult thing to replicate.

[00:34:27] So,

[00:34:28] um, but when you go out and you’re, you’re out in nature, you’re doing the things that. Quite frankly, humans were meant to do, you know,

[00:34:35] go going out and, you know, hunting or fishing or, you know, all those, those things

[00:34:39] getting out into nature. That’s, that’s another opportunity to make some of those connections.

[00:34:45] Um, you know, perhaps not as strong as, you know, while being in a firefight, but, but still pretty damn strong, I would imagine,

[00:34:52] Brian Gilman: Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, that’s why we use it. You know, we, we use the term peak experience purposely as well. That’s what we’re trying to, [00:35:00] to create, is an experience where they’re gonna, they’re gonna walk away with this incredible sense of awe, wonder and gratitude for that experience. Which helps to create those bonds that, you know, replicate those that are formed in combat.

[00:35:10] So,

[00:35:11] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. Now. You had mentioned several times the, the Built for More program, which is basically the, the program that we’ve been discussing. Are there other programs that you guys offer, other, other types of things that you guys do or, or is it primarily focused on the Built, built For More program.

[00:35:26] Brian Gilman: It’s primarily focused around the bill for more program, but we do have a couple programs that are week long experiences that, that, that serve military spouses and, and caregivers.

[00:35:35] So, this goes back to our founding when. We were originally doing those week long fly fishing experiences in nature. We have a couples fly fishing program where we’ll bring a an alumni of the program back together with their spouse and immerse them in fly fishing for a week.

[00:35:51] We also have a caregiver program where we bring military caregivers together and put them through a week long fly fishing program. As part of our strategic plan, we’re working to incorporate both of [00:36:00] those programs underneath the bill for more framework and, and make them nine month longitudinal programs that provide. The, the similar type types of outcomes that we’re seeing for our veterans in the bill for more program. We’re just starting to work on that now and a lot, a lot of that’s really discovery to identify those needs that, that are the greatest needs that, that, that military spouses and caregivers have, that we can serve through a nature-based program.

[00:36:23] So that, that those, that, that, that’s the extent of our programs. We have Bill for more. We have our couples program and our, our, our caregivers program.

[00:36:31] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, and it’s I think important too that, that you’re flexible enough that you can pivot to be able to, uh, accommodate for those other groups of, of folks as well. And especially caretakers, because a lot of times they get forgotten.

[00:36:45] Brian Gilman: They do.

[00:36:46] Scott DeLuzio: You know, and it maybe a spouse. It may be a, you know, some other family member.

[00:36:49] Maybe, maybe not, maybe somebody else. But you know, a lot of times those, those caretakers are, they’re dedicating, they lots of time, lots of energy, lots of effort, and putting [00:37:00] themselves on the back burner.

[00:37:01] And, Really they’re not, they’re not getting the recognition sometimes that they, they deserve.

[00:37:06] And,

[00:37:07] Brian Gilman: and in many, in many times. You know, the, one of the biggest outcomes I’ve seen in our, our caregiver program is that they discover they’re not alone.

[00:37:15] You know, it’s, it, it, it is perfectly understandable how they could think that, think that and their, the world that they live in. But they, they come to our caregivers program and they’re, they’re placed in a cohort of seven other caregivers and. If they’re sharing similar stories and experiences and they, they realize that they, they too have a tribe,

[00:37:31] other people that they can rely on that have had similar experiences that they can count on. And that’s one of the biggest outcomes of that program. Now we’re looking to do more, we’re looking to do more for the couples and the caregivers, and that’s why we’re, we’re working to, to pull them under the bill for more framework as well on.

[00:37:45] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, that, that’s great. And, and again, those, those people have those shared experiences. Maybe not, they, they weren’t there together doing the same, same thing at the same time, but, you know, very similar stories probably. And you know, a, a way to [00:38:00] recognize that, hey, I am not alone. There are

[00:38:02] other people out there and I I can, I can get through this, that, that person got through it, I can get through it too.

[00:38:08] Brian Gilman: Yep.

[00:38:09] Absolutely.

[00:38:09] Scott DeLuzio: and, and so that. That That can be extremely powerful, extremely helpful in in, in some, whoever it is in their journey of,

[00:38:18] uh, you know, whatever it is. They’re, they’re going through having that, that

[00:38:21] kind of connection. So, for folks who are interested in getting. Involved with the the built for More program or, or the spouse program or the the caretaker program.

[00:38:31] Um, where can they go to find out more information and, and kind of learn a little bit more about the programs, fill out

[00:38:37] an application, all those kind of things.

[00:38:39] Brian Gilman: Yeah, best place to go is to our website, so Warriors in Quiet waters.org. Click on the program link that’ll bring you to the Build for More Page, and then you can learn about the Build for More program and the other programs there. And then if you’re interested in participating in the program, scroll to the bottom of that page and you’re gonna see a section where. It, it gives you an opportunity to sign up for our wait list. We’ll open our next program [00:39:00] application in January and, and we’ll be placing the, all of our program participants for the rest of 2026. So if you’re, if you’re interested in January, I know this, this, this podcast is gonna air in late January, go to our website, that application Window’s gonna be open through the end of February.

[00:39:16] Submit an application and, and we’ll get you in the queue and we’ll make sure that we give you our best look at, at participating in the program.

[00:39:22] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And so, traditionally I, I’d imagine that you guys probably have a pretty decent wait list as, as far as, you know, people who are not, not to say that you’re so backlogged that you know, don’t even bother applying ’cause you’ll never get in kind of thing. I’m not

[00:39:34] not saying that, but, but you, you guys probably get, you know, a wait list of, of people to, so that you, you can, you can group people together the way that you described before by, by,

[00:39:44] region, but in and all that kind of stuff. So that way

[00:39:46] you you know, that you’re building the, the, the best group of, of folks who are gonna have the best outcome for success. And, and I think that’s important that you, you’re able to you know, kind of put that out there and, and get, get folks together in, [00:40:00] for.

[00:40:00] At, at the right time, at the right place at, you know, where, where it all just kind of works out for, for all those people. So, um, so

[00:40:07] that’s awesome. I will have the link to your, your website and all your you know, social media, things like that in, in the show notes for

[00:40:13] any, any of the listeners there who are interested in filling out an application or learning more about the program or, or anything like that.

[00:40:21] So you guys can just check out the show notes so you, you’ll be able to find that link there. Anything else that, that we missed that, that you’d like to touch on before we we wrap up here?

[00:40:30] Brian Gilman: Yeah, I can just think of just two things. You know, number one, there, there are, are lots of veteran services programs that you can, that you can, you can go to. I will tell you that we know the outcomes that we achieve in the bill from our program because we measure what we do. We work with a third party evaluator, the Institute for Veterans and Military Families at Syracuse University that collect data on our participants as they go through our program.

[00:40:52] And they, they measure change in the participants. Do the analysis against all that data and then report back to us every year in terms of what we’re [00:41:00] accomplishing in the program. And, and what we’re seeing is built for more is accomplishing what was designed to do. Veterans are coming out of our program with a sense of purpose that’s in increased two, two twofold.

[00:41:09] Their sense of thriving. Which is a, you know, a, a holistic of different, different mental health indicators that, that, that speak to how well a person is doing living their lives. And what we’re seeing is we have participants come into our program below the national population average for thriving, and they leave the program above that.

[00:41:29] American population average for thriving. They’re sleeping four times better. Their sense of community is, is increased tenfold. The anxiety and, and and stress that they were dealing with prior to coming through the bill for more program, a hundred percent of our program participants report that, that that anxiety and those stresses are not near to the level that they were before. And a hundred percent of our program participants report back that they, they feel fully equipped to deal with the challenges that life’s gonna continue to throw their way. So, you know, the, the program is delivering [00:42:00] that package that we’re looking for, and that’s veterans that are able to thrive and continue to lead and serve in the communities that they live.

[00:42:06] So, you know, we’re very, we’re, we’re very proud of that. We’re up in the ante on our, our program evaluation in 2026. We’re doing a randomized control trial on the. On the, on the program. So the gold standard for program evaluation to really get to causality of the, of the, the outcomes that we’re achieving in the, in the bill for more program. And then the other, the last thing that I’ll throw out there is just the, you know, the ongoing need to invest in post nine 11 combat veterans. The. The need didn’t disappear when we withdrew from Afghanistan. As you know, in many cases, those needs will persist for lifetimes and veteran support is probably one of the most under invested areas of philanthropy in the United States.

[00:42:46] It, it garners about 1% of all philanthropic giving in the United States. And we need to invest more in our veterans because at the end of the day. Thriving veterans make America stronger. They’re gonna go back and they’re gonna make sure that their family’s [00:43:00] thriving, their communities are thriving. The organizations that they work in are gonna be better because of them. The government that they serve, the civic groups that they serve are gonna benefit from thriving veterans. They also serve as exemplars for the next generation. Ours is an all volunteer force, and if we want America’s sons and daughters to raise their hand to volunteer to serve in the military. We need to show them exemplars and demonstrate that service in the United States military is both valued and valuable, and that they can thrive after their service. And we need veteran exemplars across America, demonstrating that to the next generation. So with that, I’d just like to say thanks for having me on.

[00:43:36] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, absolutely. And those, those are definitely some, some great points and I’m, I’m glad. That you were able to come on? We, we talked a little bit before we started recording here. you know, but one of the, the reasons that I, I want to have people like yourself on is because there are programs out there there, there are

[00:43:53] lots of programs out there, and if folks just don’t know about the programs you know, they [00:44:00] may, they may start.

[00:44:01] Thinking to themselves, like, I’m, I’m losing hope here. I I, I have

[00:44:03] no place to turn, but there’s always another place. And that’s what I I I’ve been doing with this show,

[00:44:09] putting out all these resources, people like yourself and, and you know, the, the Warriors and Quiet Waters and, and all the, all the other organizations that are out there.

[00:44:18] I mean, if, if people are thinking to themselves, man, I’ve tried everything. Well, I’m, I’m pretty sure you haven’t. There’s always something new, uh, al always something else. And, and so, You know. Just kind of words of encouragement for folks. Like, just, just keep trying. Don’t, don’t

[00:44:32] give up. Um, and and, you know,

[00:44:35] if that, that, one thing that you tried didn’t work, try something else.

[00:44:38] There’s always something else. So,

[00:44:40] um, so Brian, thank you again for coming on the show. And, and thank you for everything that you guys are doing over there and and look forward to hear more great stuff coming out out of Montana. So

[00:44:50] Brian Gilman: and thank you for doing this podcast and thank you for your service.

[00:44:53] Scott DeLuzio: Yeah, you bet. Thanks.