In this episode, Christopher Page talks about the importance of community involvement. He's worked with his local community to do everything from 5x the size of his local American Legion post, raise awareness for suicide prevention, homelessness amongst veterans, TBI, PTSD, and other veteran related issues.
He's done a lot of great work, that you'll appreciate if you have a soft spot in your heart for veterans.
Links & Resources
Scott DeLuzio: 00:03 Thanks for tuning in to the Drive On Podcast where we talk about issues affecting veterans after they get out of the military. Before we get started, I'd like to ask a favor. If you haven't done so already, please rate and review the show on Apple podcasts. If you've already done that. Thank you. These ratings help the show get discovered so it can reach a wider audience. And while you're there, click the subscribe button so that you get notified of new episodes as soon as they come out. If you don't use Apple podcasts, you can visit DriveOnPodcast.com/subscribe to find other ways of subscribing, including our email list. I'm your host Scott DeLuzio. And now let's get on with the show.
Scott DeLuzio: 00:45 Hey everyone. Today my guest is Christopher Page. Christopher has been the Commander of an American Legion post in New Jersey for the last three years, and during that time he grew the membership through strengthening the ties to the local community. He's currently moving on to be the Vice Commander in the County where he's working to entice younger veterans to join the American Legion. Christopher also started a nonprofit that helps raise awareness for veteran mental health, suicide awareness and several other issues. So Christopher, thank you for joining us today. Why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself? I'm sure you can fill in some of the gaps where I left off in the intro, but why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do there.
Chris Page: 01:31 Thank you very much. I really appreciate this opportunity to come on here. So, a little bit about myself is that I've been in the Army for a little over 16 years now. I'm a senior NCO working a staff position and I also teach op sec
Chris Page: 01:48 where it's a bit of running around to a couple of the national guard units here up and down the East coast and Reserve units. So that's been a pretty interesting part of my career having left running around in the woods and chasing after soldiers a lot. It's actually quite relaxing before going down to a first sgt. position, which I think I'm going to be doing sometime this fall. The other things I do is that I started up a great little nonprofit in New York City and celebrating the Army's birthday. Every year we pick an army veteran who has, since hanging up the uniform, gone on to do great things within their community. The way of giving back and how that all started was several years ago, I was standing around with a couple of Marine friends of mine celebrating the Marine Corps birthday on November 10th.
Chris Page: 02:41 So as we are raising glasses to the Marine Corps, no better friend, no worse enemy, they all started chiding me on why the Army has no interest in doing something similar. So, after a few beverages, we all decided that it would be in our best interest to do something similar for the Army in New York City. Why not? Fortunately for me, I knew the head of Army public affairs in New York City and he being a former Marine was there, having a very easy time of pitching this to General Odierno who loves coming to New York City quite a bit. And so, it was a very easy sell to get General Odierno to come to New York City. And in doing so that kind of legitimized our drunken conversation on why the Army doesn't celebrate its Army with a birthday party like the Marine Corps does.
Chris Page: 03:34 And after General Odierno had a great time at our first event, I guess in his notes or his staff's notes, they said next year, bigger and better. So, we founded it as a nonprofit and we had put a little bit of meat and potatoes behind the effort. We couldn't just have a nonprofit to just throw a party once a year. So, we had to do some educational work around that as well to become a legitimate nonprofit. So now we hold panels throughout the year and we do other events such as ruck marching, sailing, you name it. We're out there in the community, engaged with folks doing events to raise awareness around, suicide prevention, homelessness amongst veterans, TBI, PTSD and a bunch of the other big picture issues that are framed around everything they're dealing with within the veterans’ space right now.
Chris Page: 04:35 So we put these events on and we do a lot of great work within the community with our messaging. And to top it all off, we then end up having a great birthday party on or around June 14th every year. A lot of people in the Army don’t know that the Army birthday is celebrated and it is June 14th, although the Reserves and the Guard have a different birthday. We celebrate it on the big Army birthday party and it's a fairly inclusive event. So without the help of those Marines, we wouldn't exist. So, what happened is we ended up inviting a disproportionate number of Marines to these events, and that's led to a couple of them making fun of it, calling it Marine week. Then they tag our pictures and they #ataMarine week and they're trying to get their jobs and we give it back to them just as much.
Chris Page: 05:34 But, it's out of a shared love. I have no hard feelings towards any Marines. My time in Iraq, I served almost exclusively with Marines and that was one of the best experiences of my life working with those guys and gals. Previous recipients of our award, which is the soldier for life award, have been folks who help build the Vietnam Veteran Memorial down in Washington DC. Jan Scruggs. We've honored Harry Robinson. He's a world-renowned architect, African American veteran, and Vietnam. He was a Ranger and that guy's got stories for days on his short tour in Vietnam, which are just as absurd as you could imagine. Having lived a soldier's life, his stories are just on par with anything you can imagine as absurd as they are.
Chris Page: 06:32 And then we have the CEO Emeritus of HBO, Bill Nelson. He was our first award recipient who, basically volunteered to go to Vietnam, served in the 101st Airborne. I wonder, if it was still airborne and did a great job over in Vietnam. He served honorably. He ended up, unfortunately having to return with the remains of his best friend who they volunteered together to join the Army and when he came back here, his story is also incredible, by the way, and I'm not going to do justice on this, but he came back here bringing the remains of his best friend and a bunch of his friends of his family. They're all firefighters, you know, total blue collar, New York guys. They said, “Hey, you know, you've done you fought your war. There's no reason for you to go back.
Chris Page: 07:26 And he told them straight up that, no, I'm going back. My soldiers need me. And he went back, completed his tour, finished his time in the army honorably, and then came back to go on to do great things in the community, donates regularly to great charitable organizations, such as the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in downtown New York City to honor New Yorkers who lost their lives in Vietnam as well as a plethora of other nonprofits where he works. And so, he was our first award recipient. We could think of no better person to do that. I mean, coming out from the enlisted ranks to be CEO of a company, a fortune 500 company, that's incredibly impressive for what he's done.
Scott DeLuzio: 08:14 Well, he sounds like an impressive person and impressive background from what you've told us here in the last minute or two about this person and I'm sure you can fill volumes of books with stories that he has that would be just as interesting to listen to or to read.
Chris Page: 08:40 The best part about that is that most of the folks that we've honored there, have been enlisted from Vietnam. The best thing about all those folks, they are as humble as it can be, that there's no air about them. They want to help this next generation of war fighter get what they're entitled to and not have to be spat on upon their return. So, I give massive kudos to our brothers and sisters who fought in Vietnam and came home and did all that horribly and went about quietly living their lives because we owe so much to those men and women. I can't thank them enough.
Scott DeLuzio: 09:21 Yeah, we certainly do. So, this episode, we're recording it a little bit before Memorial Day, but this will be coming up a day after Memorial Day. That's a great way to remember the people who didn't make it home. Talking about people like this who, honor their sacrifice by going back even though he was told, you've done your duty, you don't need to go back. People like that will do their job, do their duty, and go back and honor the memory of the people who have fallen. It's really, really amazing to hear stories like that. Thank you for sharing that story about him and it's really great that as your organization is doing what they do and recognizing these people who are standing out as pillars of their community after their service.
Chris Page: 10:32 Yeah. They're very quiet pillars of the community too. These folks, you wouldn't know, there's no airs about them. Very humble. They've seen the worst of humanity and then they've gone to do great things within their community and I can't thank them enough. That then leads me onto what I do for the American Legion and my local VFW, although to a lesser extent with them, but we work together because we're both small and our communities are growing now. My civilian side of the house, I do regulatory compliance and I've been working in that space in New York City for some time. I had worked a lot within American Legion posts within the New York athletic club in Midtown Manhattan. And there you have quite a bit of a diverse group of individuals who are very much in the mindset of that using that place as a great place to network, to get career advice, career advancement, and do a lot of great things within that local community.
Chris Page: 11:40 Having that kind of a viewpoint, and I don't know if you know very much about the New York athletic club, but it literally sits on the South end of Central Park. So, if you go up to the rooftop, you're looking straight up central park and it's an amazing venue for events, which is where we also hold our army birthday gala. Well, the ties to the community are not as strong as they would be for maybe an American Legion post or a VFW in a small town in Manhattan you kind of get lost in the concrete jungle and you just find your peers in that space. So, for the American Legion, it happens to be better and they're highly motivated veterans. So, a good chunk of the people belong there.
Chris Page: 12:33 There are Academy grads that went on to Columbia or Wharton, you name it, very well-known and established business schools. And then you have a couple of highly motivated, former enlisted folks as well who are going down the same career path as these officers. So you're having these two groups come together for a common mission of trying to bring themselves up in the business community in New York City, whether it be in finance, law, entertainment, anything that basically New York City has to offer. It's a great spot for that and the club itself is a fantastic venue as well. However, if you go out again to an American Legion post or VFW in a small town, you're going to be doing a lot more work with the local schools, the local community, and you'll see a lot more of the four pillars that most folks know who are members of the VFW and the American Legion,
Chris Page: 13:44 know what those four pillars are. So, having then moved from New York City several years ago to now living with my wife, we found a local American Legion post that was basically falling apart, literally falling apart. About 10 years ago, the building which stood on the ground where it currently stands and, I highly recommend everyone going to check out the Facebook page, because the building is actually a beautiful and the view of Midtown, Manhattan's even much better. The building that was there beforehand was the original building that had been on the site prior to the American Legion post’s members buying it right after WWI. You can imagine what kind of a state that building was in about 10 years ago after being in existence for about a 100+ years. What happened was the local folks in the town at city hall, they ended up getting a bunch of money to rebuild the building. From there it is basically, a fantastic community center/meeting point for veterans to help bring together the community basically.
Scott DeLuzio: 15:08 When we were talking, before we started recording, you had mentioned that you worked on growing the membership. I believe it was at that post when you first started out there, it was somewhere around 20 or so members and in a couple of years you grew that to well over 100 members, which is somewhere around five times the number of members in a pretty short amount of time. What was it that you did? What did you do to go out and find those members? And more importantly, I guess, how did you get them to become members? Was it through the revitalization of the building or was it through the work in the community? What were some of those things that you were doing?
Chris Page: 15:55 It was a combination of a few things. This is a problem that's said at a lot of different American legions, VFWs, you name it across the country. The older, typically Vietnam era, veterans don't know how to entice the younger veterans to come into their posts and what you basically just need is defined. And maybe a handful of younger veterans who want to come in and create, basically let them off any kind of leash that they might be put on by normal leadership that happened to be in there. And this is the way business has been done for as long as I've been here. Let them do things. Let them take over some of the leadership positions, let them help run the post. And that's basically what happened for us. I took over, first thing I did was I invited a bunch of my veteran friends in the area to come join the post.
Chris Page: 16:56 It wasn't that hard of a sell and they would come to the post and see the view of Midtown Manhattan and they were like immediate, like sign me up I want a part of this, it's gorgeous. It sits right next to a park and looks right at Midtown Manhattan and it's just absolutely stunning. It's just a great place to sit down after a long week if you want to have a cigar or beverage or sit there and play cards or on weekends we'll barbecue. So that was the first thing. I've set that in motion to invite a couple of friends over. And once I got them hooked on the view, then it got to, “Hey, we need to get some of this work done around this post.”
Chris Page: 17:37 So a lot of cleaning happened and we cleaned the place up. We removed some needless furniture that had been sitting around for forever. Basically, just threw it in the dumpster because it was just trashed. And we set to task with fixing the place up. From there we started building ties with the community. So, a lot of the folks that were members there had just fallen out of contact with people in the community. So they're much older in their seventies, so none of their kids were in schools anymore. They were all retired from either the local fire department or the police department. So they didn't know who the younger members were at those places. And so, I reached out by walking there and started talking to some of the guys and women that were in the police force and the fire department, EMS and as well as the schools.
Chris Page: 18:34 And one of the great things about the Legion is what it does for community outreach and recognizes an outstanding member of the community. For one of the first things we did with that program was that in a town next to us, called West New York. What we did was we put a call out for all the police chiefs to get back to us so we can recognize a person for doing an outstanding job in the community. West New York was one of the first towns that replied to us and one of their police officers, actually went into a situation where there was a gentleman who wanted to commit suicide by cop. This police officer, think of this situation as you will, he sat down next to this individual who wanted to die and talked them down. He didn't tase him, didn't threaten him.
Chris Page: 19:32 He just saw this man who was in anguish, sat down next to him and very calmly talked him down from what he was considering. And the guy's alive today because of this police officer’s heroic actions. So, we gave him a little bit of recognition, it went all the way up to our state level here in New Jersey. And we got a nice certificate, framed it, and we presented it to him. And so that was one of the other ways we reached out to the community. We also recognize annually a teacher in our community, which has gone above and beyond their station and reaching out to the kids who are in need, who maybe need a little extra work in helping with their schoolwork, homework or whatever the case may be.
Chris Page: 20:23 And we've done that now, this is our third year in a row that we're doing this. Because of a lot of closures of other posts, our post now encompasses a wide area of the North Hudson County region. So we have a lot of schools to cover and a lot of police departments and first responders. So, things like that really helped us reconnect with community. All the mayors know who we are now. They see that we're an active member of our community. They reach out to us for some advice on what to do with our community. Another person you might consider having on your podcast is the gentlemen who rebuilt the Hoboken American Legion post. That gentlemen, right after hurricane Sandy, their post was just destroyed. Hoboken is basically at sea level, maybe a few feet above it.
Chris Page: 21:18 And a lot of the buildings there just got wiped out. So, they rebuilt their posts for housing for up to eight formerly homeless veterans. They're doing amazing things there too. I'm very proud of our County, the American Legion post, and the VFWs. We've been doing a lot of work and doing outreach to help out the local folks impacted by Covid and hurricane Sandy. A lot of the work that's done has helped out a lot now that we have solid County leadership, which I'm happy to be moving up to that level now so I can help as the County grows, especially bringing in younger veterans to help out their communities and do right by their elder brothers and sisters in arms as well as their families that they're working with too.
Scott DeLuzio: 22:16 I think one of the great things about organizations like the American Legion is, and this maybe is something that a lot of people don't recognize is, it's not just a club where you go and have a drink and play cards. You know, there's a lot of other things that go on. I'm sure you have that aspect of it too, where it's kind of a social type of class, but there's the community involvement that is really important, and once when you leave the service, you get out of the military, a lot of times people are looking for that type of a sense of purpose or sense of belonging and that type of thing and continuing to serve your community. I know having been in the national guard, a lot of the job that you do is not necessarily the big federal missions, deployments to war zones and things like that.
Scott DeLuzio: 23:21 A lot of times it's done on the local level and on the state level and helping your community, especially these days with Covid going on and supply distribution and things like that where the national guard is being called up around the country to help get PPE to the hospitals and to get food and other supplies distributed throughout the States. It really is a strong tie to the local community whereas, you know, the American Legion, VFW and other organizations like that also have that strong tie to the community. A couple of weeks ago I had somebody from the American Legion National headquarters on and he talked about the importance of the older members. I know you were saying how some of the older members, they didn't really have the ties to the community. The flip side to that though, from what he was saying is, they tended to have more time available to them. You know, a lot of them being retired or just part time type of thing where they tended to act as mentors to the younger veterans. I think that's something that a lot of the younger veterans are maybe missing out on; they don't have access to the
Scott DeLuzio: 24:44 wide range of experience, the life experience that a lot of these older veterans have gone through. They've made a lot of mistakes and they're more than willing to open up and share their experiences with those younger veterans. They have the time to be present because they're either retired or just working part time. So, now being able to entice those younger veterans into the American Legion, it's now opening them up to this a wider range of experience, which is great. I'm glad to see that you found a way to get those younger veterans in. For a lot of people, myself included, just up until a few months ago, it was one of those things where I just felt like it was like an old man drinking club.
Scott DeLuzio: 25:37 You know, like it's one of those things where you associate it with your grandparents' generation, the World War II or Vietnam Vets who go there and they just go and hang out in a dark smoky bar and drink and tell war stories and stuff like that. And it wasn't exactly. But hearing these stories of the community involvement with the police officer that you honored or recognized for his service; I can't really think of anyone more deserving than someone like that.
Chris Page: 26:10 We have those kinds of ties to the community and it is what really will drive growth within these organizations. You're absolutely right. A lot of the older members are great for mentorship, for educating us for what went right, what went wrong, especially they have the institutional knowledge of the local community. Unfortunately, some of the older ones, we still look out for them and try and help them out. But, unfortunately the younger veterans, I'm talking like guys and women, who maybe just did one tour and got out, they don't necessarily connect. That's an ingredient that we've managed to bridge where you have the intermediary age of guys who were in the senior ranks of NCOs, like myself or maybe some mid to senior rank officers.
Chris Page: 27:16 We have some of those as well who can, in their forties, and they're still basically in their prime of their lives. But they're the ones that are able to really connect with maybe some of the younger guys just because the age differences are just not that great. They oversee companies, they're able to do the actual hiring for them or give them the advice or connect them with somebody who would be able to help them out. You need a breadth of varying ages in every post, and fortunately for us, we managed to hit that magic mixture of folks that are in there, and basically the makeup of our post is so diverse.
Chris Page: 28:08 It's fantastic. You'll have folks who work in government, local government, state government, a few folks that are retired, me who works on Wall Street. I'm not actually literally on Wall Street, but I work in a financial firm in Manhattan and we can bring in folks and we can help them out, especially the younger folks who are now using their GI bill. They come into our post and then they're saying to us, “Hey, okay, now my last year of school, what do I do next?” And because I've been there, I'm able to help. I tell them my story and, maybe it'll help them one way or another with some folks who might give an internship or just give them a chance. That's needed at a lot of posts.
Scott DeLuzio: 28:54 Speaking of your story, maybe I can get a little personal with this and ask what led you to want to join the American Legion or the VFW in the first place? Did someone invite you in or was it just something that you felt like you were missing something and you decided to go seek that out on your own?
Chris Page: 29:17 A little bit of a mixture. So back to what you said, my grandfather belonged to a VFW not far from here actually. And when I had gotten off active duty because I spent some years on active duty and then I went to college here at Seton Hall University. His VFW was shut down. A Vietnam veteran and I shut it. So, from my understanding is that they weren't necessarily that great at right recognizing that the folks coming back from Vietnam were worthy of being members of their post. And so obviously there was a bit of a break off between veteran's groups around that time, hence the growth of the Vietnam veterans of America. It was just one of the saddest moments because I remember being there as a kid in a smoke-filled room while grandpa was drinking very cheap Budweiser.
Chris Page: 30:17 The stories I heard in there from these older WW II veterans were just amazing and having come off of active duty and then going there and seeing that it was basically myself and a Vietnam veteran were the only ones there anymore because everyone had either just moved to Florida or were gone unfortunately. It was sad we had to shut the place down. We sold it and it no longer is in existence. So fast forward to a couple of years ago, um, my post again was down to like 20 something members. A bunch of those members were retired already in Florida? Not actually if at all. I saw the post needed some just fixing up and little did I know the actual extent of what work would go into being a Commander at the post and I don't regret it at all.
Chris Page: 31:16 But at the same time it was like this is basically a full-time job for me. Now on top of being a reservist and working full time in Manhattan and having a wife and a dog and trying to do a million different things, I have a third full time job. This is all I need. Fortunately for me though, some other great volunteers stepped up and really helped a lot, but it is quite a bit of work. You're basically managing an office building almost. I had to learn a lot about HVAC systems and all sorts of crazy things that I never thought in a million years I'd have to learn about. But here we are. That's what led me to help save this place and bring it back.
Chris Page: 32:00 And a lot of the younger members who joined, my major selling point for them is what are you using to get through your college right now? And they say, well, the GI bill, well guess who made the GI bill? The American Legion, right? I don't say to them, “Hey, I expect you to be here for all these meetings.” We've actually scaled back meetings a lot. The older generation guys, they were meeting monthly and it was like, no, that's not happening. You know, this could be an email. So we scaled back a lot of those kinds of activities. And then we just put out information. So, we do yoga at the post. My wife of all things, she went and got a yoga certification. So, now she teaches yoga at the post.
Chris Page: 32:45 It's just a little bit of a donation to come and join. If younger veterans want to go do that…we did do an annual 5k run with a VFW. So, we do stuff with them as well. And so, folks can pick and choose what they want to do without the pressure of having to be there all the time and doing things for the post, which is great. And so, there's no pressure to do things. They know that because of constant communication to them that we're doing all these great community led efforts with their dues, which are helping pave the way. We do mental health awareness day; we do women's health awareness day. We've done a couple of naturalization ceremonies at the post bringing in new Americans.
Chris Page: 33:33 One of the proudest moments ever in my entire life was staying there and bringing in 30 something brand new Americans from 23 different countries and then giving them their certificate, making them brand new Americans was amazing. And with the backdrop of New York city right behind us and the Hudson River, it was just beautiful. It was absolutely gorgeous. And, I had a lot of friends from around the world who said if they could really do their naturalization ceremony, they would want to do it at the post. Maybe even one day we'll have an unofficial ceremony for you and just so you can get up there and do it. All this kind of like ties together with bringing these new veterans in and just sell to them plain and simple “Hey, your money goes to helping out the next generation of veterans with their GI bill because without that, the funding that comes in through your membership and your support at American Legion, that money's not going down to DC.
Chris Page: 34:35 So those folks can fight on the Hill for you to help with your rights under <inaudible> anytime Congress wants to get their sticky fingers all over your GI bill funding and take that away from you. He was there fighting the good fight to prevent that from happening because there's no such thing as a sure thing. The way the winds blow down in DC just depends on what topic’s hot now. So you never know. Suddenly, your housing allowance for your GI bill might dry up and I try to afford living in Manhattan while attending NYU or Fordham. It's not going to happen. It's not like back in the day when these guys coming back from WW II had housing set up for them and their monthly rent was probably like 50 bucks or whatever it was. If you're looking at apartments in Manhattan for like anything less than $2,000 a month, that's where the work of organizations like the American Legion come in to help push the legislation along that supports the veterans and gets the benefits that they desperately need.
Scott DeLuzio: It sounds like the nonprofit that you have has a lot of similar interaction with the community and things with mental health awareness and the homeless veterans and things like that. You know, trying to raise awareness for those things, those types of things, and helping with that. So, it seems like you certainly have your hands full with all of that, but it also seems like you're juggling it all very well and maybe keeping all the plates spinning at the same time. So, hats off to you and the community, the members of your community and the American Legion and everything for helping all those people.
Scott DeLuzio: 36:37 It looks like we're kind of coming up on time here. Sometimes these things go by quicker than you think. I want to thank you again for taking the time to join us and tell us about what you're doing and how organizations like the American Legion can help out the community. How can people find out more about your organization maybe to donate, find out about your events, where can they go to find out about that?
Chris Page: 37:09 You can check us out on our social media page. Right now, we're revamping our website because we have a very ambitious new commander coming in who wants to do a lot more with community, and he's bringing on a solid team. So, our website's under construction right now of all things because it makes sense due to a Covid. So now we're doing a total revamp of a lot of things. Our Facebook page is still active and we're active on Twitter and Instagram as well. I believe I sent you the links if you want to just pull those up and it'd be really appreciated.
Scott DeLuzio: 37:43 I add all those in the show notes.
Chris Page: 37:44 Yeah. And we try and lay out all the greatest and latest news that's going on within our community. We try and highlight our members and what they're doing in the community, and, if folks want to come out and either you can rent the place or just come in and check the place out, we'd love to have you there. It's a fantastic venue and trust me, even when the weather is not good, the view of Manhattan is still fantastic, but we love to have anybody who wants to come out that we even have folks come out from national in Indianapolis. They love our post that much.
Scott DeLuzio: 38:24 That's great.
Chris Page: 38:25 Yeah. So thank you very much for having me on here. I really appreciate it, and you yourself, if you want to come down, we love to have you at our post. If you want to do a live podcast from our post, I won't be disappointed. I can show you a great view of the city and give you a little tour around town and you get to see firsthand all the things that we're doing. And I'd love to introduce you to a lot of our veterans who do way more stuff than I do. And they're so in touch with everything in the community. Our members are just amazing, I just stand in humble aweness of everything that they're doing to support. And it's stuff that you just will never hear about in the national media just because it's very community based and what they're doing is just amazing and making such an incredible local impact. I'd love to send them your way so you can give them some recognition because they're just amazing.
Scott DeLuzio: 39:27 Yeah, it would be great to have people like that on the show because I'm always looking to try to get people who are doing things in either in their community for veterans as a whole, spread the word about those resources. Because a lot of times, people just don't know that some of these resources even exist. And, if they're out there and they're available, waiting for people to show up, let's get it done and get them access to these things, if we can. So, absolutely. After we're done recording here, we'll definitely talk about that. Sounds good. All right. Thanks again. Thank you.
Scott DeLuzio: 40:15 Thanks for listening to the Drive On Podcast. If you want to check out more episodes or learn more about the show, you can visit our website, DriveOnPodcast.com we're on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at DriveOnPodcast.