Hope And Healing For The Veteran Community

Drive On Podcast With Scott DeLuzio
Drive On Podcast
Hope And Healing For The Veteran Community
My guest in this episode is Jennifer O'Neill. You might recognize Jennifer from movies like Summer of '42, Rio Lobo and dozens of others. Currently, Jennifer runs Hope & Healing at Hillenglade ranch, which provides veterans with PTSD an equestrian form of therapy. In the episode, we talk about her ranch, what they do there, and how horse therapy works for those with PTSD and other disorders.

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Scott DeLuzio: 00:03 Thanks for tuning in to the Drive On Podcast where we talk about issues affecting veterans after they get out of the military. Before we get started, I'd like to ask a favor if you haven't done so already, please rate and review the show on Apple podcasts. If you've already done that. Thank you. These ratings help the show get discovered so it can reach a wider audience. And while you're there, click the subscribe button so that you get notified of new episodes as soon as they come out. If you don't use Apple podcasts, you can visit Drive On Podcast.com/subscribe to find other ways of subscribing, including our email lists. I'm your host Scott DeLuzio. And now let's get on with the show.
Scott DeLuzio: 00:44 Hey everyone. My guest today is Jennifer O'Neill. You might recognize Jennifer from movies like, Summer of ‘42, Rio Lobo and dozens of others. Currently, Jennifer runs Hope and Healing at Hillenglade, which provides veterans with PTSD an equestrian form of therapy. We'll be talking about her ranch, what they do there, and how horse therapy works for those with PTSD and possibly even other disorders. So, Jennifer, welcome to the show. Why don't you tell people a little bit about your background, how you got involved with horses, and ultimately what drew you to start this program that you started?
Jennifer O’Neill: 01:27 Well, first of all, Scott, thank you for your service and thank you for having me on. It's an honor. I think I came out of my mother's womb loving horses, but they didn't really understand that. So, I started working at 15, modeling so I could buy a horse. It was my passion and I bred them for 40 years and showed them in the A circuit and they have brought me so much joy and healing, and relationship that about 20 years after moving to Nashville, we bought the farm. I'm an English girl, so we call it a farm, not a ranch, but it's the same thing. My husband and I bought this farm 10 years ago and I had a passion not only for the horses, but at that point I wasn't showing anymore or breeding anymore.
Jennifer O’Neill: 02:22 And I thought of the opportunity of how healing these horses have been in my life to share them with the military. I have a passion for the military. My dad was a war hero in World War II. At 23 years old, he was a captain of a B-17 and he was shot down on his second to last mission and was in a German prison camp for two and a half years. So, I grew up with the notion that being in the military and protecting our freedoms and honor in the United States is the most amazing thing anyone can do. I grew up with Victory at Sea on TV. My dad, I read about in books in school. And so that was how I became familiar with the incredible work that the military, first responders and their families do to sacrifice for our freedoms.
Jennifer O’Neill: 03:22 All that said, connecting the dots with the horses and the families and those struggling with PTSD was very natural. It's an equine assisted therapy and it has been going on, proven to be very helpful since the 80s in Israel. There are various ways that you can do it, but it's not about riding, it's about relationship. So equine assisted therapy is all about relationship and you must be present when you're in front of a 1500-pound animal. A lot of the warriors that are suffering from PTSD, one of the things that it helps is have them focus, make a relationship, communicate. Horses are like our mirror. So, since 2010, we have served over 4,000 military, first responders and their families. And we do various things. We have celebratory events like picnics and the whole family can come out to the country and relax. And that's when we have the horse rides and we have little donkettes that you can paint the kids.
Jennifer O’Neill: 04:30 It's just a family gathering. And now that we have a covered arena, we can do the healing sessions, the deeper healing sessions all year round because it's not something where you want to say, well, we're making headway here and I'll see you in the Spring. So, we're all set up with a mess hall and a pavilion over these 10 years. We are able then to serve people on a deeper level. We've had a lot of support from various organizations. Home Depot came in here and did a makeover a little bit and helped us build some things out. There are people that really care. So the idea that the private sector has to step up for and honor our military and our first responders because not all of their needs are being met through the VA, although they do the best they can, you know as well as I do, they're not all met. And there are alternatives to helping people in the aftermath of coming from protecting our freedoms to reinstating them into regular life that the horses are very helpful.
Scott DeLuzio: 05:44 So let's do maybe a quick walkthrough of the program that you offer to help these veterans and first responders. Someone comes to the farm and they're new to all of this. Maybe they've never been around horses, maybe they have no experience with that. What is it that you do to kind of help them first off, familiarize themselves with the horses and then what is the program sort of look like?
Jennifer O’Neill: 06:17 First of all, I just would like to mention that we work with organizations so that the people that come here, everyone is welcome, but it's nice to come through an organization such as Fort Campbell or Operation Stand Down, etc. What we do is that you don't have to know one thing about a horse to go through this program. The first thing we do is familiarize the individuals or groups because they come in groups as well. We have three-day courses, with Fort Campbell, etc. Familiarize them with the horses and the safety and how to deal with them. Horses are flight animals. They're not like dogs that just come up and wag their tail and say hi unless they've been abused. A horse basically is looking to have a relationship and a trust between whoever they are in front of or else they will view that individual or that group as being harmful to them.
Jennifer O’Neill: 07:18 And so, you must create that. Horses have 17 expressions more than monkeys, so they can signal to you exactly how they're feeling by the position of their ear. If they're switching their tail, if they're breathing, they're 17. So, we go through all of that so that when they get in the round pen, the individuals can work the horse and pick up what they're seeing in the horse. And one of the most exciting things that ever happens is something called joining up. When you're working the horse in the round pen with a handler and then later by yourself you will have a relationship with that horse. That horse is at liberty, that means it doesn't have a halter on, it doesn't have a lead rope on. You've created a relationship by grooming that horse and talking to that horse and going through the instruction and then what was so exhilarating to see is that when that horse walks, trots, and cantors at your command, and they're free; then you back up and give them, at the right moment, an invitation to come and join up with you.
Jennifer O’Neill: 08:36 Every time I think about it, it makes me cry because the warriors, these incredible warriors just break down in tears from that relationship, from being honored with the horse, walking over to you on its own and making friends. That's one of the things we work toward. I'll give you another example though if we have time, because we deal with the entire family unit. It's not just the warrior, as you well know, that goes to war, the entire family. And a lot of times there are, of course, the suicide rate is astronomical. It's beyond comprehension for our heroes. And the divorce within the family unit. So, we work a lot with couples and let's say a couple is having trouble communicating; they're fighting, they're not talking or we can do this with the teens or the kids as well.
Jennifer O’Neill: 09:39 And what we do is we put a horse in between, say the husband and the wife, and there's an obstacle course and one of the two is going to be blindfolded and the other one has to not only communicate with a horse, how to get through the obstacle course, but also to their spouse or that the other party of what's coming up, watch this and that. By the time we finish, everybody is usually hysterically laughing. And then we switched the blindfold to the other person and they're laughing, they're talking, they're communicating. We've broken the ice.
Scott DeLuzio: 10:18 Right. Okay. So, they assist with communication, trust, other areas that we probably are lacking in after our time in the service, even though we're very well trained military members, first responders, police, fire, EMS, all those people; we’re all very well trained at the jobs that we have to do. But the jobs that we must do are not necessarily the model husband or the perfect parent or anything like that; That doesn't necessarily fit the job description. It sounds like these activities and the courses and the things that you are doing with these people and the horses seems to help push them in that direction to become better. Maybe realize some of their flaws in their communication.
Jennifer O’Neill: 11:32 Absolutely. A horse will mirror how you present yourself. We had a gentleman come here as a guest, we call them guests, you know, of course, to honor them. And then he started to volunteer and he was here about two months and he came over to me and he said, Jen, I just want to share this with you. I was talking to my wife last night and she just looked at me dead on and said, what's happened to you? And he said, what do you mean? And she said, well, you're listening to me. You seem to pick up when I'm upset about something and it's not all about you. He didn't know he was doing this. And he said, I didn't realize that my marriage was in jeopardy because I wasn't communicating. But working with the horses has heightened those senses.
Jennifer O’Neill: 12:23 You know, a lot of people have triggers with PTSD, or it's hard for them to stay focused or present. If they're hurt or angry inside that just flows through the whole family unit. That can be repaired. You can heal, you can have hope and you can have communication on a level that is more sensitive than the training. Your training is impeccable, but sometimes it doesn't fill the gaps with how to communicate with your family or other people or how to work in the workforce. We have one of our programs here is called the Empowerment Transition Program where we have a warrior or two or three depending on what's going on, to come and stay at the farm for up to six months, three to six months, and work on the farm, go through the complete detailed and in depth healing as they learn how to work on the farm, work with animals, and if they choose to, once they graduate, they can go into and choose this vocation to work with horses. We have jobs set up for them so that they can move on if they want to in this area of expertise. So, it's a win-win situation.
Scott DeLuzio: 13:46 Yeah, it does sound like that can help in many different scenarios. And we've talked a bit about people with PTSD coming through this program. But are there any other conditions? We talked a little bit about marriage and relationships and things like that, but are there any other conditions that people might have that this form of therapy works well for?
Jennifer O’Neill: 14:18 Any condition? Actually, anything that needs healing. My passion is in the military as I've said. I'm also pro-life, so we do post-abortive healing sessions here. You can do abuse issues. Anything that requires communication and trust and relationship are perfect candidates for equine therapy. And of course, there are riding places like Saddle Up and so forth that help handicap individuals and autism and so forth. So, horses are just healing by nature. They can be used in so many varying ways. But for instance, to come here, you do not have to have PTSD. You just have to have a desire. We are an open turnstile for whatever needs you have. And that's why we deal with a whole family unit as well.
Scott DeLuzio: 15:16 Yeah, that's interesting too because before we started talking about this, I never really thought of it much as a form of therapy for an entire family where there's a husband and wife, some kids thrown in the mix and everything. There's that dynamic where you may have the teenager who's acting out or whatever and it doesn't feel understood like they're being taken seriously and that type of thing. And that all boils down to communication a lot of times.
Jennifer O’Neill: 15:55 Another example of that, we had a teenager working with some other teenage kids, girls in this case, from different families. And this particular girl was a storm. I mean, she was just so angry. And we had about four other girls there and we went through the haltering of the horse and leading the horse and all of that. When it came to her turn, one of the biggest signals that a horse can give you is if they don't want anything to do with you, they will turn their back to you. And that's just a warning that if you get near me, I'm going to kick you. And we don't have any horses that kick. But this girl was such a storm that the mare that everybody had haltered and walked around when it came her turn, the horse turned around and she started yelling.
Jennifer O’Neill: 16:49 She was so angry and she said, “what's the matter with the stupid horse?” And went on and on. And she said, “why won't she come to me?” And I said, “well, would you come to you in the way you are right now what you're presenting?” And she came the next day and she was like a different person because that horse mirrored what she was presenting. And a lot of times when we are not communicating well, there are a lot of signs that we can pick up. But when we're kind of in a tunnel vision on anger or lack of communication, we miss those signals from our family, our coworkers, or friends. And this just heightens all of that.
Scott DeLuzio: 17:37 Well, that's really interesting that from a completely different species. You know, we're humans. We should be able to communicate with each other, but sometimes we fail with that, but find this other species, a horse that has a good way of mirroring the attitude, the behaviors, the things that we have in ourselves. And they reflect that on us. And it goes to a thing that I was talking about with my own kids. Sometimes they'll get frustrated when they try something new for the first time and they fail and they're frustrated, “Oh, this is stupid. This is a dumb thing. I can't do this.”
Scott DeLuzio: 18:24 Whatever, you know. I try to explain that failing is part of life. You don't start doing things at pro- athlete levels. You don't pick up a baseball bat for the first time and be able to hit home runs and sign up for major league baseball or whatever. You know, that's just an unrealistic expectation to have. So, throughout our lives we have all these little micro failures that we have but that helps us rewire our brain. I'm not a psychologist. I don't know what the exact terms are, but it helps rewire our brains so that we don't do the things that cause pain or failure.
Scott DeLuzio: 19:10 We do more of the things that cause success and pleasure and things like that. So, I use the example with my kids. Like, you know, when you're young, you don't know that the top of the stove is going to be really, really hot. And if you put your hand on top of the stove, well, you're going to find out right away and then you pull your hand away and then you can live for another, 90 something years. And you'll never do that again because you just know that that's a stupid thing to do. Don't do that. It's going to hurt. You learn. And where I'm going with this is with the horses, when someone like the girl that you were talking about who was just a complete terror; when she walked in on day one, she walked in and she did all of these things and they were not productive. They didn't produce the results that she was looking for with the horses. They didn't respond to her. She had to learn that that's not how I get these horses to do what I want them to do or anything like that.
Scott DeLuzio: 20:17 There's a bit of a failure there. And then she learned and she grew up in a way.
Jennifer O’Neill: 20:25 Well, I always say that God was in a good mood when he made horses. I love all animals, but they're so big and powerful. My gosh, Jesus comes back on a horse and they must have some credit there. This girl went home and instead of shutting down, she took the experience and she digested it and she came back the next day with a new attitude and a new approach. And isn't that what you're saying, Scott? It's what life is about. These prompts of moving forward often come off failures. So, if you try something with a horse you see very quickly what works and what doesn't work, but they don't hold grudges. The beauty is that with horses you can go because they're herd animals and they have a pecking order.
Jennifer O’Neill: 21:20 And some of the girls have asked me, “do their feelings get hurt? they don't hold a grudge like people do. They don't go back to memories unless they've been beaten and they're put in a situation where they feel like they're vulnerable. They remember that, but they're very giving and they basically work off what you present. And it's a powerful feeling to know that once we wrangle our own emotions enough to have an experience with a horse that's so gratifying, it just releases not only endorphins, but it releases these places that often individuals don't see this. It's there in a stronghold that they're angry, that they're presenting to anyone around them, stay away from me. So that's one of the healing aspects. I remember reading an article about equine therapy in Israel, where they're in constant battle and in constant stress.
Jennifer O’Neill: 22:30 The thing is that in Israel, everybody must do at least two years of military, women, girls. And when they integrate back into society, there is a greater understanding of what they've been through because everybody's been there to a certain extent and they're always under threat. But what we found here, one of my board members was, Barry Rice, who's the head of Vietnam veterans for Tennessee. And we would go around with a General Hugh Smith who was also on our board and do PTSD events to get people to understand that it is something that's real, something that's treatable. It's not something to be embarrassed about. A lot of people suffer from it or they want to be deployed again and they don't want to have it go on their record that they're struggling. So, we want to present a safe place, which we do. What goes on at, at Hillenglade stays at Hillenglade and it reminds me of Disneyland with fur for the kids and the families.
Jennifer O’Neill: 23:44 But we get to some serious issues, group issues and it changes lives. But I'm sure your audience probably knows, but even the number of 22 suicides a day from these heroes, that's low. That's only from the States who report. It's bigger than that. And then the trickledown effect of PTSD on the entire family can be devastating. So, it's imperative that we first of all learn that there are people that have horses I have found are very generous and we're doing a program, we're creating a curriculum here at Hillenglade so that we can have people come and we can train them to open up their farm. Of course, there are things they must learn, the appropriate animals to use, the different exercises. But I know that they'll open their barn doors; if they can honor the heroes and their families, they will do it. They just need to know about it. To that end, we're also doing a film here.
Scott DeLuzio: 24:55 Yeah. And I wanted to actually touch on that too. Let’s talk about that film and what it is that you're doing with the film, who you're hoping to reach and all of that. So, why don't you tell us a little bit about the film and how that's going.
Jennifer O’Neill: 25:14 It's going very well beyond very well. And I must brag on your father. Mark DeLuzio is the Executive Producer and working with your mom is amazing. I have not met them in person because of the Covid19 situation, but I feel like we're long lost friends over the phone. He's helping put together the funds. We have a director, but basically what the film is about and we have a producer and we have a cast list and all of that. And all the four-legged cast are already here and training up. But the film is called “On the Hill” and it will be shot here where our farm is about 20 minutes from downtown Nashville. We're going to shoot the backdrop of the film, which is a fictional film. It's a regular script. The backdrop is the farm and what's going on with the equine therapy.
Jennifer O’Neill: 26:12 So the characters are involved with that. The film will display how we work, the difference we can make as a backdrop of what's going on with the main characters. I've done close to 40 movies and I don't think in God's economy that he wastes time. So as much as I love the horses and I've done those, I'm bringing back, by writing this script, the knowledge that I have and worked in that industry for so long because we can reach so many people through film, whether it's on Netflix series or whatever the distribution ends up being, or if we ever get in the theaters again. But there are so many outlets for this and we get this information to people and show them in an entertaining fashion, exactly what happens at a place like this at Hillenglade that restores that hope and healing. So, the marketplace, suddenly people can realize, “Hey, first of all, I'm not the only one. Secondly, there are alternatives to assistance in what I'm struggling with. There's hope for me. There's hope for my family that there are different directions that I can integrate myself into. I can control my triggers. I don't think they ever go away. I was shot with a 38 so, PTSD is not just a military issue, it's a shock and awe issue.
Scott DeLuzio: 27:47 Yeah, absolutely.
Jennifer O’Neill: 27:49 Yeah. So, it's everybody. You asked earlier who would be qualified to come here? Just about everybody can benefit from this situation. The characters in the movie display that there's a 14-year old girl, there's a Morgan Freeman character, a black gentlemen who's run the farm and he's in his seventies, and he's just a fabulous character. I'm going to be playing Kate. She's in her sixties. And so, there are generations that all respond favorably to a situation like being in the country, having that calm, having that healing issue. And in the film we hit some hard issues, it's not Disneyland in that regard, we hit the suicide issue, we hit the bullying issue, we hit healing after a loss and victory at the end of the day.
Scott DeLuzio: 28:51 I want to circle back a little bit to something that you've mentioned before we started talking about the movie a little here. The trickledown effect on families and I think that PTSD could have, and I think that's something that maybe a lot of people don't even recognize is a thing that could happen. I was just listening to a podcast earlier this morning and they were talking about how a lot of our own behaviors are due to our own past experiences. You know, like I was talking about before with the little kid touching the stove and things like that. Like you learn not to do things like that because they cause pain or you learn to do something else because it brings enjoyment and that type of thing.
Scott DeLuzio: 29:39 But when you have PTSD or when you go through some traumatic event, whatever the case may be, maybe you've been shot or maybe it's some other situation that is a traumatic event that's a negative connotation associated with that. And you learn to avoid those types of things. And so maybe you've been in an ambush or something like that where you weren't paying attention well enough. And so now you're always on alert and you're always on guard and you're always paying attention, but now you're living in a house with little kids and that constantly on, always alert, always aware, always on guard, attention doesn't necessarily translate as well. And so, the trickledown effect of that is that sometimes the kids who are growing up in that environment are looking up at the father or the mother who is constantly on guard and maybe has high anxiety and things like that, and those kids are looking up and saying, “well, this is all I know. This is going to be the way that I'm supposed to be, too. And so, it has an effect on other people as well. So, I'm glad to hear that there's a movie that's going to come out to highlight some of these issues and show how families and other people can benefit from this type of treatment.
Jennifer O’Neill: 31:16 Well, you're spot on, Scott, on the trickledown effect. It is something I have permission to talk about this with my ex-husband, who was a Vietnam Marine and we got married and we have a beautiful son and he was suffering from PTSD, but nobody knew what it was. It's been called all sorts of things over the years from WWI. And it's something that you see affects everybody around. Now, Richard is a fabulous man. We're great friends. We have a beautiful son, but he was a storm. He never laid a hand on me. But if he felt threatened or if something triggered him, he would verbally just blow you over. That affects children, that affects marriages. In fact, we finally got divorced because we didn't know what was going on. And then we got married again and tried to make that meet all bounds, but because the issues were not addressed,
Jennifer O’Neill: 32:22 and to this day, Richard again is a fabulous, wonderful, godly man. But he's a 100% disabled from PTSD and he had an inability to communicate. And because of the divorce, when my son was 14, he had a choice to go stay with me or go see his dad. And he was very close to his dad. And I see in my son, and again I have permission to talk about it, that because Richard had trouble in crowds or going out or being with people, my son didn't do sports, he didn't get taken to events that a lot of teenagers would go to. So that affected him. And then it was not unusual for Cooper, my son, to come in, especially at Christmas time, that was a trigger for Richard, and see his dad sitting at the kitchen table with a gun in his hand. So, thank God he's okay. Thank God he's gotten the help, and he was a horse person so he got a lot of help through that. So, I have a passion for this for not having families fall apart and the effect that an angry parent or a wounded parent can have on kids. And then we follow suit. We are what our parents were quite often. And it's not what any of these parents or people want to present to their kids or to their spouses.
Scott DeLuzio: 33:53 I think it's something that we may not even recognize or pay attention to because we might be struggling with our own issues and we don't necessarily stop to think what that effect will be on the next generation or on your spouse or on your friends or other family members that the relationships that you have in your life.
Jennifer O’Neill: 34:22 You can’t give what you don't have if you don't have a settled heart, a place. First, a lot of people don't recognize that they're a storm or they're having difficulties or they're non-social or whatever it may be. But that's why the equine therapy works so well because the horse mirrors, as I said earlier, how what you're presenting and you can see with this 1500 pound, fou- legged beautiful animal he's going to show you or she's going to show you exactly how you're acting and to conquer that and figure out how to be present, how to communicate trust and partner with that animal. You don't break a horse. You want to partner with a horse. If you try and break a horse, they'll win every time. They're too big. And having shown jumping horses my whole life and so forth, I wanted to partner with that animal.
Jennifer O’Neill: 35:17 One of the things that I learned years ago from one of my trainers, he was a top trainer in the English world and then he worked with his dad and his father was an amazing man, Mr. Carol. I'll never forget it. And he always wore a suit and he would start the lessons with the group and we had to groom our own horses. I think it's awful that some of these kids just get handed their horse by a groom because you have to have a communication and we would go in the ring and before we would even gather our reigns up, Mr. Carol would be standing there and he says to each one of us, “how does your horse feel today and how do you feel today? And do you think you're going to make good partners?” And going through the process of tacking the horse up and grooming the horse each one has a personality. They have good days and bad days. They're not robots. This is such a unique sport because it's not like a team sport, like basketball or a relationship, if you will or like a team sport or an individual sport or even racing cars. That's a machine. When you get in concert with a horse, it's a ballet. It's a marriage. It's just beautiful. And it's there for everybody, whether you've ever been around a horse or not. You can create that relationship and then carry it through, take it home with you.
Scott DeLuzio: 36:51 And that I think is ultimately what we're all trying to find is to find better relationships. We're trying to get better communication and whether we know it or not, I think that's something that we all strive for and that we all want to have. Would you be able to tell us just kind of quickly as we wrap up here where people can find out more about your program and you're in the Tennessee area. So, this may not be necessarily something that people from all over the country are going to travel to, but there are other programs like yours around the country. So there might be something closer to them, but you know, for people who are in your area who might be listening, where can they go to find out more about you, your program and also about the movie that we talked about.
Jennifer O’Neill: 37:46 Well first, we have a website, and I'm going to give you that information just to make sure I'm doing it right. I believe if you go to H I L L E N G L A D E. org because we're a 501C(3) organization. All the events that we do and sessions that we do are all free of charge. People need to know that we're not the only game in town. So, we're 20 minutes outside of Nashville. If you look up Hillenglade or equine therapy in Nashville, Hope and Healing at Hillenglade will come up, just call and we'll be here for you. It's important to know that people all over the country have alternative ways and places to go where they can unwind, get to heal, and become better. As I said, you can't give what you don't have, so you can settle yourself and then you can give it to your family, give it to your community and it's completely private. So, if you're not in the Nashville area and you look up equine therapy, you'll see all kinds of them across the country. So, there'll be something near you.
Scott DeLuzio: 39:11 That's great to know. And what about the movie, is there anything out there yet that we can look up?
Jennifer O’Neill: 39:20 No, we're about to make a website and because of the Covid situation, but once we do, we'll be following it. We were supposed to start shooting in July, but because of the circumstances, we don't know exactly. So, we're just waiting on, I might give you an update on that later but your dad is awesome.
Scott DeLuzio: 39:41 Maybe once when the moves a little further along, and have a little more, maybe we'll have you back on to talk about the movie and maybe give a little more information about that where people can find it and things like that. So, thank you again, Jennifer, for being on the show and sharing all this information. I think it's great and I think people who are struggling with PTSD or any other issues that they can really benefit from this form of therapy. So, I thank you for coming on and sharing it
Jennifer O’Neill: 40:14 Well again, thank you for having me. Thank you for your service. Thank you for your sacrifice. You lost a brother in the war and this film is dedicated to him and others around him. We have a gentleman here, Steve DePalma, I know you know him and he's my partner in the equine therapy. And the beauty of all of that is that Steve served in Afghanistan and he's been there, done that. So, he is here to work with the warriors. There's nothing like conversations between two warriors. It's a camaraderie if you will. It's a brotherhood and it's very special. So, I'm honored to have Steven here with me to take that up because I work with the families and the women and the kids and all of that. I also work with the warriors, but basically, it's a deep understanding what people are dealing with and horses can help you heal, I promise you.
Scott DeLuzio: 41:14 Absolutely. All right, well thanks again and we look forward to hearing more about the movie when that eventually comes out.
Jennifer O’Neill: 41:24 Great. Thank you, Scott.
Scott DeLuzio: 41:30 Thanks for listening to the Drive On Podcast. If you want to check out more episodes or learn more about the show, you can visit our website, DriveOnPodcasts.com we're on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at DriveOnPodcast.

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