Episode 312 Jackie Jones Healing Veterans Holistically Transcript

This transcript is from episode 312 with guest Jackie Jones.

Scott DeLuzio: [00:00:00] Thanks for tuning in to the Drive On Podcast, where we’re focused on giving hope and strength to the entire military community. Whether you’re a veteran, active duty, guard, reserve, or a family member, this podcast will share inspirational stories and resources that are useful to you. I’m your host, Scott DeLuzio, and now let’s get on with the show.

Hey everybody, welcome back to Drive On. I’m your host, Scott DeLuzio. And today my guest is Jackie Jones. And Jackie is a holistic therapist who has been treating military service members and veterans for over a decade now. And she’s here to discuss ways to help heal PTSD, moral injury, and a lot of other.

Types of, uh, uh, mental health, uh, injuries like that, um, through this holistic approach that she has. So, uh, with that, welcome to the show, Jackie. I’m glad to have you here.

Jackie Jones: Thank you. Thank you so much for having

Scott DeLuzio: me. Yeah, you bet. Um, for the listeners, [00:01:00] maybe who aren’t familiar with you and your background, could you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Jackie Jones: Yes. So I’m Jackie Jones. I am owner and practitioner of Flourish Momentum, integrative health and wellness for mind, body, soul, and space. Um, so What I do and that I typically work with people one on one, although I also work with organizations and provide different like corporates, corporate wellness groups, or, um, I have different contracts with different VAs or nonprofits as well.

Um, but typically I work with individuals one on one and pull in my toolbox. So that’s clinical art therapy, yoga and meditation, um, holistic health coaching. Energy Healing, like Reiki and Feng Shui, so that we’re really able to address the whole system, um, and [00:02:00] identify where the, the most significant block is at any given time, and have the tools to address that so that someone is always healing, whatever is the root of what’s keeping them stuck, but also I have the tools, um, Um, to help them move from that insight and self awareness to actually embodying the shifts that they’re trying to create in their lives.

And just quick background, so people know kind of how I got here. Um, my first career was as an art teacher. I knew at five, I wanted to be an art teacher and I made that happen. Um, I went into art therapy. Because, as an art teacher, red flags would come up in artwork, and it wasn’t my place to help the kids process through whatever was coming up.

I kind of knew enough to know that, that things [00:03:00] were being presented, but I had to… on to guidance counselors. And I, um, never got to be part of that processing and, and, um, which was important for me because I created the space where those things were coming up anyway. So, um, and then other, other experiences too.

I worked with homeless children and in Brazil for a while, but from a. an art therapy perspective and wish I had a art therapy or art education perspective, but wish I had an art therapy background for that. Um, anyway, fast forward in school for art therapy. I wound up interning at the National Intrepid Center of Excellence at Walter Reed, and I was there for a year and it was hugely impactful.

There were a lot of reasons why I sought out that internship and, um, And it was incredibly impactful. So I wound up, I [00:04:00] happened to be there when they started to break ground on the other Nyko satellites around the country. Um, and even though the art therapy was such a big component of the Nyko program.

The satellites were not initially going to have art therapy as part of their programs. And so, um, I approached the National Endowment for the Arts and wound up getting pilot funding and kind of sold, sold the services to Port, Fort Belvoir. Um, who was willing to let me come in and give it a shot. They weren’t paying for it.

So they really just had to have enough buy in to give me a room. And within three months, um, was able to really prove my worth. And within a year I went from being a contractor on a grant to being a full time contractor through the NEA, to being a, um, a GS. a total GS position. And then from there, it grew, um, to having more art therapists and music therapists.

[00:05:00] And then the, these intrepid spirit centers grew around the country. Eventually I wound up at, um, Eglin Air Force Base too. And the Air Force was having their first center like this. And there I got to be the art therapist and the yoga and meditation teacher. So I wound up leaving that in 2020 because of other situations going on.

Um, But from there, I started my private practice and then even though I miss working within the military clinics, a benefit of working on my own now is I can pull in my whole toolbox. Um, people aren’t telling me what I have to use when, so I can really follow exactly what’s coming up with the client and pivot as needed.

And, um, yeah, now I work with people virtually and in person. So they can be local or they can be far away.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And that’s great that your whole background kind of just led you to where, where you are now, um, you know, all the way from, you said when you were five [00:06:00] years old, you knew you wanted to be an art teacher, but little did you know that that was going to lead you on to the path that you, uh, you ended up on.

So I think that’s, it’s pretty incredible, um, you know, how, how people fall into the, the, uh, career that they end up in, um, but we’re going to get more into what. It is that you do and that the whole approach that you take in just a minute. But, uh, we’re going to cut to a quick commercial break, so stay tuned.

So Jackie, uh, before I started this show, uh, years ago when I first was, uh, starting this podcast and even before then, uh, whenever I would hear the word holistic, which is, you know, part of what we’re talking about here, what you do, um, I would think of some like new age hippie stuff, like it definitely wasn’t anything that you would associate with like any kind of treatments that you get at your doctor’s office.

Um, but that’s, I guess that’s not what it is at all. I mean, um, like holistic really refers to treating the whole person, but not just the, the [00:07:00] individual symptoms maybe that they’re dealing with. They, um, you know, you, you’re, you’re looking at. the big picture and you’re, you’re treating everything, um, because really we’re all, I mean, everything is, is integrated.

And so there, there needs to be that holistic approach where you’re not just focusing on, you know, the squeaky wheel, uh, and, and you’re focusing on the other things that might be an issue because there’s so much that’s connected. Um, Can you explain how your holistic approach, the approach that you take, uh, earlier you were saying, you know, you’re not bogged down by, you know, what other people are telling you to do now, um, you know, so what, what your approach does to address the overall picture, the, the mind, the body, the, the soul, the spirit, the, whatever you want to call it, um, of each individual to, um, promote healing for whatever it is that they’re going through on all these different levels.

Jackie Jones: Yeah, of course. So I think that, [00:08:00] uh, in order to answer that, it can help to know why I added what I did when, um, so, uh, just personally and, and my personal. Life and the career life obviously are, you know, intertwined and influence one another. So, um, growing up, I was always into art, would draw before I went to bed, fell asleep with art supplies in my bed.

Like I was very into art as I, um, grew, especially into adolescence, art was like a home base for me. Like no matter what I was going through, I knew that I could. create art about it, and it would make me feel better. And it would kind of give me time and space to come down, better understand my feelings and, um, work through feelings that I would have about other people.

And so I knew that there was some connection between art [00:09:00] and psychology. Um, Eventually I was in a used bookstore one day and just was following my interests and the art section and the psychology section merged at like one book that was like their teeny tiny art therapy session like section. So I knew that art therapy was a thing.

I got that book. I read it. I, um, became really interested in, in diving further. So, um, I went to school. To school. Initially, I have a master’s in education and art education, and I always wanted to do that. But for me, I knew that it was a stepping stone. People in my life who care about me were like, you’re never going to get a job in art therapy, at least have this in your back pocket.

Um, and it was a really good experience. So I don’t, I don’t regret that at all. It did become a really important building [00:10:00] block. But While I was in school for art education, and then while I became an art teacher, I was still looking toward art therapy and, you know, even as a teacher, my first year of teaching, I was already in night school again to get more prereqs that I needed to go to school for art therapy.

Um, and. In becoming an art therapist, um, there’s just such a different approach to art. So art as therapy, like just creating art is very therapeutic. And then when you learn to take kind of the opposite approach, being in the process versus the product, um, you wind up really tapping into yourself at a soul level, really understanding your, what’s going on in the subconscious, um, really understanding what’s truly underlying [00:11:00] the manifesting issues.

Um, and so I wound up actually, when I left teaching, one of the pivotal things, the PTO president, he knew I was moving on to art therapy and he said, no matter what you do, don’t work with adult men because they won’t get this at all. And so that kind of planted, like, A challenge in my mind. And there were a lot of other personal reasons that I sought out the internship at Nyko, but I kind of entered art therapy school with like, like, I will learn to do this with the people that I’m being told will not appreciate it at all.

Scott DeLuzio: I like that attitude that you have. It’s like, well, someone tells me I’m not going to do this. So I’m going to do it harder. And I’m going to, focus on is that

Jackie Jones: I’m going to make sure this I wound up, um, getting an internship at, at Nyko and it was, [00:12:00] it was huge. I think that it was, um, sorry, I just need to correct my headphones. I’m really falling down. Um, okay. So

I think, especially being in a context, um, where you’re working with people who

either don’t have the words to adequately express what, how they feel about something or about what happened, or… have the words, but it’s, there’s way too much. It’s way too overwhelming to start to go there. Um, it’s just really powerful to be able to have art therapy as a modality that can ease people into opening up at their, the pace of their inner wisdom.

Um, art therapy is really powerful because it, it slows you down. You can only create at a [00:13:00] certain pace. So it’s like self moderated, you’re expressing your own inner wisdom. So you don’t have like a, a sword match with a therapist, like telling you what’s going on with you because you’re the one that put it on the table yourself.

Um, it cuts down a lot of filters and defenses. So anyway, it’s come back to your question. I can go more into that later, but art therapy is really good at an outlet for genuine self expression. Getting to the subconscious root of whatever issues are manifesting as, as problems or conditions. Um, and it provides a really wonderful outlet to process through whatever needs to come up.

And then we’ll get more into that later. I know, but there is, there comes a. a place where you can know what happened. You can know how you feel about it. You can know [00:14:00] how it’s affecting you. Um, and you can know that you want to feel happier in your life. You can know that you want to feel more joy in your life, but you might have trouble accessing those emotions, especially if you haven’t felt them for a long time.

And so this is where the yoga came in to play. So for me personally, and this is something that relates with a lot of clients, but personally, I was a really. Like type a go, go, go. All of my exercise was endurance sports. Um, I didn’t think of yoga as being an exercise or like really worth my time. Um, but I was getting some overuse running injuries and I started seeing more and more that a lot of runners were getting into yoga in order to not get overuse injuries.

And so. One year I kind of said to myself, my new year’s resolution was, okay, I’m going to do yoga one time a week, [00:15:00] just see like how this goes. And then before I knew it, I was hooked. Like a lot of people who get into yoga have these periods of time that we all kind of. Collectively happenstance referred to as like the cry yoga phase where like you drop into it enough that like you’re in the middle of practice and you just start crying and you’re not sure why, but that really helped me.

Um, that was powerful for me as a trained therapist, been in talk therapy for a while, had been in art therapy for a while, have. Like kind of knew how to do all the tools on myself, but like this yoga class was making me cry. So that really woke me up to how much our emotions get stored in different parts of our body and how powerful it can be to release these, these repressed emotions that.

We have trouble accessing through these psychological means, um, just through the postures. [00:16:00] And so then I got trained in that and I, I took the job at Eglin because they were supportive of me becoming the yoga and meditation teacher as well. And so then I got to kind of start co trading within myself too.

Um, and then beyond that, those clients would see me, um. Like I was a yoga teacher. I care about health. I think it’s apparent when people spend time with me. So they would start asking me health related questions and I’d have to say that’s not my lane and kind of refer them to people who were, but when I left that job, um, I was taking care of my mom who I was diagnosed with cancer at the beginning of the pandemic.

And I got certified in integrative nutrition, health coaching at that time as well, which. actually played a really powerful role in my being able to care for her in certain ways. Um, and then also to resolve some [00:17:00] issues that I was having within, like my skin was angry, different things like that I was able to resolve through that education.

And then the last piece is the, the energy healing and the feng shui. So, so to connect it all, sometimes you can have the the psychological understanding of, of what happened and, and, and how it’s affected your life, but you still can’t quite make the change you’re seeking. Then you can release the emotions from your body, but something still has a hold on you.

This is where the energy work really comes in to help clear whatever, um, block is still there affecting you. And then the. Feng Shui is really powerful as well because it’s, it’s like you spend all this time doing this internal work, but if your environment doesn’t reflect it, it will keep pulling you back.

So the feng shui is a really important component of what I offer now too, because it, [00:18:00] I guide the people to work with their own space so that their environment is then lifting them beyond their work with a one on one provider.

Scott DeLuzio: And I think all of these pieces. A lot of them are not even things that I would even think about when, um, when I’m thinking about some of these, these issues, maybe it’s a, you know, PTSD type of issue that someone might have, um, in the back of my mind, these things, uh, might not even be stuff that I, I would have thought of, but, Like you were saying, a lot of times people are stuck with certain issues and they can’t seem to get past that.

But again, it’s not, um, you know, conventional wisdom or whatever you want to call it that, that you would think of, uh, whatever, you know, the, the environment that the person might be living in. Um, you’re not necessarily thinking of that as the. the issue or, or the thing that’s keeping them stuck. And so it does take a, uh, approach like the [00:19:00] one that you just described, where you look at all of these different, these different factors and, and incorporate that into the treatment of, uh, the individuals.

Um, when we get back, uh, we’re going to cut to another quick commercial break, but when we get back, we’re going to talk about maybe some challenges that, uh, especially military, uh, service members have when it comes to approaching, uh, types of treatments like the one that you were just describing. So stay tuned.

So Jackie, um, I know you were talking about, uh, earlier. Um, you were told as you were leaving your teaching career, don’t work with adult men in this, this next field, uh, that you’re going into the art therapy because they’re just not going to get it. Um, and. As I think we all know, the military is comprised of a lot of adult males, and so I would imagine a lot of the clients that you were working with when you were working with military service members were, uh, in that category, um, what advice do you have for them and, and even the, the veterans who might be [00:20:00] hesitant to go and explore this type of, uh, treatment that you were talking about, uh, that you were just describing?

Thank you.

Jackie Jones: Yeah. Um, so this is what makes, this is what makes my job challenging now. It was, um, easier when I worked at the clinical environment and the other doctors and providers would be like, I know you don’t want to go, but I’m putting it on your schedule. Just show up. Now working for myself, it’s much harder to get people through that door.

So once people would come to one session, um, so first, can I curse a little bit if it’s just to quote them? Okay. So I’d have so many people coming in their first day. They just very blatantly say, why the fuck am I here? Um, What the fuck is this hippie shit? Like, but honestly, in one session. I’d win them over and they’d be hooked and they’d come back.

And, um, my greatest, uh, tool for getting more [00:21:00] clients was those people’s word of mouth saying, you’re not going to go on a go, shut up, just show up. Um, it’ll be really good for you. So I guess some work, like phrases that I hear from people often. So instead of me giving the advice, let’s kind of pass on some words, um, that, that veteran clients say often is, um, I’ve had so many people tell me, you know, I’ve been in all these other therapies, but honestly, I, They weren’t working and it’s not because they were bad.

It’s because I didn’t even like myself. So if I don’t even like myself, why would I try to get better? But now because of the work we did, I like myself and now I’ll start to implement the other things that I learned in other therapies I’ve had. A lot of clients say, like they refer to what I do as like a scalpel to the soul in a [00:22:00] gentle way, but the stuff that, I mean, the stuff just gets right to the source of the issue.

Um, and so I’ve had a lot of people say, I wish I got in here a lot sooner. Like we just did in one session, what has taken me years to work toward, I’ve had a lot of people say, um, they don’t think they’d be here anymore if it weren’t for the work that we did together. So really powerful. And as, as far as the yoga goes, the way that they would get people to come to yoga, they would just.

They would tell them, just go to yoga. She’s going to make your butt sore. She’s going to make like muscles you didn’t even know sore. And then, you know, that’s how they get them in there. But then once they’re there, you know, they tell me things like, I didn’t even know that I could feel peace anymore. I didn’t even know that I had the ability to quiet my mind anymore.

I didn’t even know that I had the ability to feel happiness or joy anymore. But I [00:23:00] felt those things in here. And so if any of that resonates, you know,

Scott DeLuzio: Well, and I’m glad that you shared those messages from, from those people who have gone through this and that’s their feedback. And that’s what they’ve said is, is all of that.

Because, um, you know, part of the reason why I even do this show is to share different forms of treatments or therapies for a variety of things that people would never consider On their own without having hearing stuff like this, uh, like this type of message, because, um, it, like you said, like a lot of times people are gonna be like, like, what is this?

Like, I’m not doing this. This isn’t, this isn’t going to do anything for me. Right. Because it doesn’t necessarily fit into that, that traditional way of thinking as far as different treatments go. But when you’ve tried all of the traditional ways of doing things and they’re not working, Well, it’s time to start trying some untraditional ways [00:24:00] of doing things and, and, and step outside of that, that box that you have, uh, in your mind for, uh, whatever these treatments are.

So yeah, you have to try that, that next thing, but hearing from other people who might’ve been in a very similar situation where. They don’t like themselves. And so why am I going to bother trying these types of treatments or I’m going to go to these treatments because someone’s telling me to, but I’m not going to put in the full effort, you know, until you fix that, nothing’s going to work.

Right. And so what you’re saying is the, the treatments that you offer, uh, have that ability to cut through to whatever the root of that issue is. Right. Um, now once you get people in the door, um, and. You’re, you’re working with them. Uh, are there any common challenges that you have when working with military service members or veterans or, uh, any, any people like that with, with, uh, the type of work that you do?[00:25:00]

Jackie Jones: Yeah. So I’ll, um, I want to answer that in a few different ways. So when I first started at Belvoir, for example. And it was, it was new. Um, and they didn’t know who to send me. I found out later, they just initially sent me everyone that they were having difficulty with, like everyone they didn’t know how to have a breakthrough with.

And, um, and I was able to make a lot of progress with them, so it helped them. See the value, um, added of this, of this extra modality in the clinic. Um, I think things that tend to come up a lot, um, as challenges are that when people experience trauma, it’s not stored verbally. So. They experienced something traumatic and it’s not stored on a verbal level because those are not the verbal parts of the [00:26:00] brain are inhibited when you’re experiencing trauma because the places lower down in the limbic system are the are the places of your brain that are.

More active to keep you in survival. So your verbal areas of your brain become inhibited when you’re experiencing something in particular that’s traumatic. And then you go to get treatment for it. And oftentimes you’re first given a verbal approach to address it. But a lot of times clients are made to feel like they’re just being difficult, um, or they’re just not being open when.

they might literally not have the words to adequately explain what happened or how they feel about it. Um, or with a lot of the people we work with, they, they may have the words, but they might not be allowed to use them. They may not want to use them. Um, so in either case, it’s really important to have a [00:27:00] non verbal way of accessing that material and processing through that material.

And for art, um, When you’re art making, the same areas of the brain are more active. They’re the same areas that are more active when you’re. processing trauma. So it feels like a backdoor approach because you don’t have to rely on words, but it’s actually, as far as the brain is concerned, is actually a more direct route to that information.

Um, and so a lot of people wind up getting unstuck. They wind up finding the keys to what’s been keeping them stuck in that place for so long. Um, and other things, um, other challenges. Yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: I just want to kind of follow up on, on something that you were saying there. Um, you know, how, when you’re, [00:28:00] you’re doing the, the art, work as, as you’re, you’re processing through these different traumas that you might be dealing with.

Um, I think one of the stuck points that, that I would imagine, you know, I know a little bit about this, so I, I’m kind of asking a loaded question here, but, um, I know if I’m sitting on the other end listening to this interview right now and I’m, I’m thinking, okay, this sounds great, but I don’t have an artistic bone in my body.

Does any of that matter?

Jackie Jones: No, not at all. So it’s anyone can do art therapy. I literally was working with someone the other day who, you know, it was her first time doing art therapy with me. And she kept saying, you know, I don’t draw, I’m not an artist, but I said, it’s okay, just keep going. And, um, in the end, it doesn’t, you don’t have to be like, you don’t have to consider yourself a world famous artist [00:29:00] to do it.

Express things from deep within that we can make meaning from. Um, and it wound up being an incredibly powerful session for her. I mean, there were parts of her picture that did not look how she wanted them to look, but it doesn’t matter because the meaning is there and your subconscious drew it in a particular way.

So you do not have to be an artist to do this. Yeah.

Scott DeLuzio: And I guess the point is you’re not, you’re not creating this artwork to hang it in a museum somewhere or in an art gallery or anything like that. That’s not the intention of this. As a matter of fact, nobody ever has to see it outside of, you know, the session that you’re, you’re in.

And so it doesn’t matter if you’re drawing stick figures, so long as you’re getting the, you know, the benefit of the therapy. So. For the, the audience right now who is hearing this message and is thinking to themselves, Well, this sounds great, but I can’t do that because I can’t draw, I can’t paint, I can’t make any sort of artwork.[00:30:00]

Um, Who cares? It doesn’t matter. None of that matters, right?

Jackie Jones: Yeah, and what I always say, uh, like I, especially in the initial sessions, um, I usually have a bunch of different art supplies, and I’ll give a prompt that is, gives enough of a container that you’re not lost, but with, allows enough freedom that you can explore.

And I always say, don’t even think about it as you’re making art. Just think about it as you’re solving a problem. And so many people in the military are naturally problem solvers, engineers, builders, like they make people who don’t consider themselves artists create, I mean, magnificent things when they stop, like trying to create art, just following their natural inclinations.

Scott DeLuzio: So, yeah, and just, yeah, you’re right because it is, it’s trying to solve a problem and, um, you know, maybe if we just kind of reframe our. our minds and say, this is just a tool that we’re using to solve this problem. [00:31:00] It doesn’t have, you don’t have to be great at it. Like I’m not the best, you know, hammer, you know, you know, person who can hammer nails into things, but I can do it.

It’s just a tool and I’ll do it to, to accomplish that, that, uh, that job. Um, you know, whatever the tool may be, just use it to accomplish whatever the mission is or the objective. Uh, and then in this case, it’s getting the help that you need. Um, we’re going to cut to another quick commercial break. Um, and, uh, when we get back, we’ll talk a little bit more about, uh, the benefits of, uh, these different forms of, uh, of therapy.

So stay tuned. Jackie, we were just talking about the, you know, some of these different therapies that you provide. Um, I want to talk about some of the benefits, um, and ways that you find that like art therapy or yoga, uh, how they are effective in helping service members, veterans, anybody [00:32:00] really in healing from PTSD or moral injury, anxiety, depression, pain, even, um, different things that they may be going through.

Um, you know, how, how, what are the end results? What are the benefits of, of these, uh, different forms of therapy? Yeah. So

Jackie Jones: when I was, um, back at Belfort, actually the whole time I was within the military, I needed to prove my worth, right? I needed to prove the, the unique value of art therapy in those settings.

And so from the very beginning, I was involved with, um, program evaluation and, Research and gathering a lot of pre and post data, and I would have clients answer a lot of questions, but part of what they answered was I compiled the the symptoms of PTSD and TBI and then had them rate, um, improvement in those areas based on.

The [00:33:00] influence of art therapy, um, and the top five, like most, most change due to work done in art therapy were ability to experience positive emotions again, dealing with anger and guilt, um, improvement and feelings of depression or sadness, um, and feeling a sense of community, less alone, less isolated and, um, um, and improvement in former avoidance of trauma related things.

And that’s important. Um, what I do isn’t exposure therapy, but a lot of the things that I, um, I wrote, I’ve written book chapters and done a lot of presentations nationally and internationally on, on using art therapy to treat complicated and disenfranchised grief [00:34:00] in military service members. Um, and the thing is when you experience traumatic death or moral injury or survivor’s guilt, these kinds of things.

Um, the natural processes that someone needs to go through to process through grief gets interrupted. when they’re avoiding anything related to the trauma. So that creates complicated, it creates chronic grief or chronic suffering. And so it’s important to have these vehicles that make it, make, create a space that is safe to address things that are typically avoided.

Um, because they’re painful because you need to get through those things in order to move through it. [00:35:00] And so art therapy provides a really good outlet for that because as you’re creating, you’re naturally grounding. Um, just the act of art making is decreasing cortisol. It’s lowering stress and anxiety.

Same thing in yoga. You’re actively You’re actively grounding the whole time. Um, and then a lot of the yoga I do as service members, it’s I rest yoga Nidra, which is getting them into a theta state. So if they’re, they’re in an extremely relaxed, like lucid dreaming state where they’re meeting what. what we call messengers, like messages from your inner wisdom that are things you need to meet.

But in that state, you’re just like in a blissful state meeting these things and they’re able to be met in a way that they can really be seen, heard, you get the message, then, then they can transform. And, um, So, things I’ve seen in yoga and art therapy is people who had, let’s [00:36:00] say, night terrors related to trauma, they dissipate, or things that used to wake them up in the middle of the night because they were reliving things, all of a sudden now after processing them through So, Um, yoga, like meditation or art therapy is even if that same subject matter comes back in their dream, they’re witnessing it as they describe it more like I’m watching, I was watching a movie so it, it didn’t have the same emotional intensity as it did when I was living, reliving it.

Um, and

Scott DeLuzio: then. I just want to take that, that, uh, part that you just talked about, um, where that intensity is kind of reduced, um, because I, I know from myself, my own experiences and other people that I’ve talked to who have dealt with traumatic experiences, that sometimes when Reliving those experiences, whether it’s, [00:37:00] you know, in, you know, nightmares or even like flashback kind of things, uh, that, that you might be, uh, dealing with, um, it feels like you’re there that that’s a difference for the, the listeners, maybe who aren’t familiar with, with this and, and haven’t dealt with it themselves.

Um, the difference between what you’re saying and, um, you know, what the, original experiences is you feel like you’re there, like you’re going through that experience all over again. You, you feel, you know, the heat of the sun, you feel the, um, you know, the, the weight on your back. If you’re carrying something, if you feel all of these things, as if you were there doing it all over again, as opposed to watching it as a third party, like you would watching a movie.

Um, those are two tremendously different things. And When you, when you have that ability to kind of step back and away from that situation and just watch it as opposed to live it, it’s, it’s [00:38:00] got to be a world of difference,

Jackie Jones: right? Yeah. And then also I want to add to that, that there’s also, especially with survivor’s guilt or that kind of thing, the people innately, like we all go through things that cause pain.

Pain, we all have painful experiences and we can move through pain. But when we hold on to that pain all the time, then it becomes, it’s become suffering. And a lot of people innately know how to hold on to, hold on to that, that pain as a way to be, you know, honoring that person or helping them move forward.

But what the art. What it is, um, it allows you to create objects that are outside of you that are memorializing or honoring or [00:39:00] commemorating, um, you know, a person or a place or an event or an animal, whatever it is for you that you feel like you need to carry forward in a painful way. Um, It allows you to create something that’s separate from you that then you can put in an important place on your house or something, but then all of a sudden it’s outside of you and you’re still honoring it.

You’re still seeing it. You’re still keeping the memory alive, um, without having, without suffering in order to do that. So it, yeah, I mean, even working with someone now who, or even using Feng Shui to do that. So.

Scott DeLuzio: Yeah. And I think it’s an important piece too, because I think what you’re, you’re trying to accomplish here is, is not completely forgetting about.

Um, incidents or, you know, the, the death or the trauma or the grief or any of that [00:40:00] kind of stuff, not, you don’t want to forget about those things. And so, you know, when you go through these processes, any of these types of treatments, it’s not like you’re, you’re doing the men in black mind eraser thing, uh, you know, movie, like, it’s not like you’re just going to completely forget about these things.

Like they, they still exist, but they’re just going to exist differently so that you’re not going through life, suffering, uh, every single day. Because you’re carrying around the weight of whatever this trauma happened to be, um, and, and I know, like, especially in the case of survivor’s guilt and grief over the death of somebody who might’ve been close to you, um, could be a loved one, could be, uh, you know, a person that you served with, um, that doesn’t matter, you know, who the person is, uh, necessarily, but I know there’s, there’s that feeling like if I, um, If I stop, um, being sad about this and that’s dishonoring this person, but you know, the, the, [00:41:00] that couldn’t be further from the truth because like, think about anybody that you know, who’s living right now, um, would any of those people, if they were to die tomorrow, um, any of those people want you to just be suffering for the rest of your life because of their death?

Like nobody would, would tell you that. It’s like, yeah, you better be sad forever for, for this. Like, no, like there’s, there’s going to be that appropriate amount of, yeah. sadness and grieving time period, but they’re going to want you to move on with your life and live a happy life and, and, you know, not, not forget about them, but, you know, forget about the, the, whatever is keeping you stuck in that, that place.

And I think that’s an important thing for people to understand.

Jackie Jones: Yeah, and also to be able to carry them forward with the positive aspects too. So what happens in complicated grief is you, you bury the memory because it’s, it’s traumatic, it’s triggering, but what gets buried is also the positives. And so we, I would [00:42:00] do this project that really got.

I started because a lot of clients were coming to me really frustrated that doctors were telling them to just move on or just to accept their new normal. And they were feeling like their whole identity, everything that was important to them up until that point just wasn’t acknowledged, wasn’t important.

And so I created this container project where. On the outside, they could celebrate and honor aspects of self or career that they are proud of, that they want to carry forward. And on the inside was a place to commemorate and memorialize aspects of self or people lost. Um, and in, in doing that, they would, a lot of people have a lot of things at home.

that they don’t throw away because they’re important, but they don’t go near because there’s, you know, associated with negative memories. In doing this project, it got a lot of people to go into those [00:43:00] things and in finding some of the more negative things I think they were initially looking for, like, Like a blast fragment that was associated with an event or like things like that, that they knew they had, that they were going in because now they finally had a place for that.

Um, they would also wind up finding a lot of happy memories too, that they didn’t realize they had buried. And so then they… They finished the project with something that is all of their feelings, but externalized. And so you don’t have to be quite so fused with everything. Um, it’s honored. And then also they’re moving forward, like laughing and joking with more memories that they didn’t even realize that they had suppressed.

Scott DeLuzio: That’s a great benefit. Uh, of all of this. Um, I, I, I appreciate you sharing all of this, uh, with us. We’re going to cut to another quick commercial break. So stay tuned. Jackie, it’s been, [00:44:00] uh, really great having you on the show. Um, I, I want to try a new segment to close out this show, uh, something I haven’t done before.

Um, and just to kind of introduce it, um, what, what I am planning to do here going forward and we’ll see how this goes, but, um, but I mean, we’ve all… I’ve heard that laughter is the best medicine, um, you know, whether it actually is or not, I don’t know, but it does help sometimes. Um, and, and sometimes after listening to the voices in our heads, we have trouble finding humor in everyday situations.

So, I want to try closing out the episodes with a joke. Um, just something to lighten the mood after sometimes some heavy topics and things that are difficult to, uh, difficult to listen to. Um, but before we get to the joke, uh, first, Jackie, uh, it’s been an absolute pleasure, uh, speaking with you today. Um, where can people go to get in touch with you and find out more about the work that you do, uh, to see if maybe it’s, uh, the right fit for them?[00:45:00]

Jackie Jones: Yeah, so I have a website. It’s www. flourishmomentum. com. And then I’m very active on my Instagram page, it’s flourish underscore momentum. And I’m, if you have any questions at all, just. DM me through there or send me a note through the contact me on my website and I’ll, we’ll set up a free 20, 30 minute call to chat about what’s going on with you and what would be a good direction for our work together.

I also have, um, uh, over a hundred free. Yoga and meditation videos on my YouTube channel. So that’s youtube. com slash Jackie Jones.

Scott DeLuzio: Well, that’s excellent. And I’ll have links to all of that in the show notes so that the listeners who are wanting to check any of that out, they can just. Check out the show notes, click the link there and, uh, and find the resources [00:46:00] through the show notes.

So, um, so thank you again for taking the time to join us. So, um, all right. So to close this episode, um, it’s time for the joke. So a little boy. was staring at these names on a plaque in an old church, uh, before the, the church, uh, service began. And the pastor noticed him doing that, so he walked up to him and asked, What are you, what are you looking at?

And the boy replied, All those names up there, who are they? And the pastor smiled and he said, well, they’re the names of people from this congregation who died in the service. And the little boy thought for a moment, and then he got a really worried look on his face. And he asked very quietly to the pastor, he goes, which one?

Was it the 9 o’clock or the 11 o’clock service? Some of these jokes are probably going to be pretty corny, but I don’t know, as I, as I do these, they’ll probably get better, but, um, [00:47:00] thank you for at least indulging me in a laugh. Of course. All right. Well, Jackie, um, it. It’s been great having you on, um, you know, sharing the, the benefits of the different types of treatment that you, you offer, um, I think will help people kind of push them in that right direction to, uh, seek that out if they’ve tried other things and it, and it hasn’t worked for them, uh, maybe, maybe there’s something keeping them stuck and there’s a reason for it.

So, uh, thank you again for taking the time to join us.

Jackie Jones: Of course. Thank you for having me. You bet.

Scott DeLuzio: Thanks for listening to the Drive On Podcast. If you want to support the show, please check out Scott’s book, Surviving Son, on Amazon. All of the sales from that book go directly back into this podcast and work to help veterans in need.

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